Donkey Kong Forum

General Donkey Kong Discussion => The Kong Off => Topic started by: RichieKnucklez on March 21, 2015, 06:52:08 pm

Title: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: RichieKnucklez on March 21, 2015, 06:52:08 pm
Topic; Kong Off 4 - Top 12.


I made a decision earlier this year to let Jeff and the DK Community decide who the top 12 should be.
I also handed Eric Tessler the reigns deciding the wild card bracket.
Lets start a discussion concerning this topic. also why the hell don't I HAVE an avatar up there ^  Brian Kuh? that pervert Mruczek?
I am hurt.   <thefinger>
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: jwade614 on March 21, 2015, 11:55:34 pm
So...how many DK machines are there?
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: ebinsugewa on March 22, 2015, 01:04:21 am
Probably like 15,000 or so.
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: f_symbols on March 22, 2015, 07:10:31 am
I think it would be a good idea for us to set up a KO4 planning stream;  A single hour of Q/A, informations, and constructive criticisms could really help us get a good idea of everyones' thoughts and concerns about the event.  Here are some things I'd imagine people are thinking about:

- Are we going to pick a host hotel? (Pickings are likely fairly slim as a product of the larger event)

- What will be the EXACT playing format of the event? (Do we want bracketed?, score based? Both?)

- How will we pick the top 12? (straight up, or arcade only?)

- Determine if we will have a true "wildcard" opportunity? (Allows a walk up to compete in the event via. some test of "skill")

- Confirm who will/won't attend the event?

- Set a "bump" deadline? (Changes in the top "12" that would cause a player guaranteed a machine to lose their spot)

- Do we want to plan any other events for the weekend? (Sports, amusement park, cuisine, etc.)

- A printing of the manual, at least in some context? (possibly to raise funds)

- Is anyone willing to donate the use of their machine for the event?* (The more machines we provide for Richie, the more people can play).

- Who knows wait and see?! :-) (I'm sure I missed plenty o' things)


I would be willing to host a planning stream (or series of streams) on my channel (not necessary), we could use hitbox to increase interaction potential  via. reduced lag. 

*With regards to letting your machine be used in the event: It involves some self sacrifice, but will REALLY go a long way to help the "community" and fill out the wildcard machine numbers (I will be donating my machine for use at the event and plan to use it).  If one chose to donate the use of their machine, and had a qualified spot, they could play on it; it's not like they're throwing their machine out into the wild...).   Richie had also mentioned that he would be putting little signs above the machines that were donated for use, to recognize the act of generosity.

tl;dr  There is a ton of issues surrounding KO4 that need to be Ironed out and the ball is in the communities' hands, we should get moving
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: konghusker on March 22, 2015, 08:49:00 am
I would like to see the top 12 actually be the top 12.  Obviously Wiebe and Billy should always have their own machine as the celebrities, but I don't think they should count as two of the top 12 anymore.  That would lock down 14 dedicated machines, and then the rest of the machines can be wild cards.  The top 12 players are all so close in score now, that it would be a shame to leave 1 or 2 out when they are higher rank than billy or steve at this point.  Just my opinion, but I'm fine with whatever the community decides.
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: WCopeland on March 22, 2015, 09:53:13 am
I would like to see the top 12 actually be the top 12.  Obviously Wiebe and Billy should always have their own machine as the celebrities, but I don't think they should count as two of the top 12 anymore.  That would lock down 14 dedicated machines, and then the rest of the machines can be wild cards.  The top 12 players are all so close in score now, that it would be a shame to leave 1 or 2 out when they are higher rank than billy or steve at this point.  Just my opinion, but I'm fine with whatever the community decides.

This. Obviously I'm biased, but I think the fact that the past two Kong Offs have been won by a MAME player makes any argument for arcade-only top 12 a bit ridiculous.  The community has accepted for a long time to merge MAME and Arcade into a single HSL -- I don't think that should change for tournaments unless we come to a consensus to change it on here as well.

Full disclosure: Pretty sure the only player who would be eliminated if it were Arcade Top 12 instead of combined Top 12 is me.
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: Xermon54 on March 22, 2015, 10:25:23 am
I do agree with Steve Wiltshire. Steve Wiebe and Billy Mitchell should always have their own dedicated machine, but since they're not in Top 12, they shouldn't be included in the top 12. So technically, there would be a Top 12, + Billy and Steve, + the Wild Card.

And about the fact if MAME is accepted or not, right now, it only affects Wes (since all of the 11 other players have a score high enough done on arcade).

Dean has a 1,100,xxx on arcade, and Jeff Willms has 1,105m on Arcade, so their score are still top 12 with only arcade. However, even if their ARCADE score get kicked out of Top 12, they should still be in top 12 in my opinion. Jeff, being the Winner of the past (2) Kong Off's, should have his own machine only because of that. As for Dean, well, he did 1,206,800  Kappa

Personally, I think we should both accept MAME and Arcade score (combined), since it has been proven that MAME players can definitely adjust well on arcade. However, since pretty much every good players have their own DK machine at home, I would understand if people want to be Arcade-only (since everybody can now put a score on arcade because they have their own machine). The other exception (with Wes) would've been The Tudose, but I don't think The Tudose has the desire to participate in KO4 anyway.

That being said, I'm so fking hype for KO4. It's going to be so big big big! I can't wait to know more about the prizes and if there will be any media coverage of the event. Personally, I'm still in touch with Sam Rowe the UK journalist to try to bring him to KO4, so let's hope he will be able to attend  <Allen>

Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: konghusker on March 22, 2015, 12:52:14 pm
I hope you didn't misunderstand me Wes.  I'm saying the top 12 on this site which includes mame.  I would include mame players for sure.  I never said Arcade only players in my above statement, just the top 12 overall.  Just wanted to clarify that. 
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: WCopeland on March 22, 2015, 01:12:46 pm
No misunderstanding at all Steve, I was agreeing with you :)
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: marinomitch13 on March 22, 2015, 09:03:41 pm
- A printing of the manual, at least in some context? (possibly to raise funds)

I don't have the funds right now, myself, to order enough manuals to make selling them for a low price feasible, but I have nothing against doing this if we can pull it off together. I'd be more than willing to organize some sort of printing options so that we, as a community, can decide what we want to do. And, just to be clear, I'd be willing to do this even if all the profit goes to help support/fund the KO4 in some way. It'd literally be maybe 5-10 hours total of my time (add about 20 pics to the latter portions of the manual and screen cap some printing options to share). I could have them shipped to Richie or wherever needed.
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: danman123456 on March 23, 2015, 01:21:36 pm
Yeah I would really love to know what decides what. I would be willing to get my machine KO4 ready and donate it but I also would like to participate too so I need to know what that is. Do we have it all dedicated or not? Is the more the merrier a good idea? When is the cut-off for top xxx?

All great questions.

August is becoming rapidly full for me anyway so I need to know what the deal is here. With BOTA/Vacation and now KO4 asking for all the time off will be fun :D

Dan
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: TheSunshineFund on March 28, 2015, 08:04:10 pm
The Sunday final for the CAG tourney is being handled in the same fashion.   Maybe it's a thing now.   <popcorn>
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: f_symbols on March 29, 2015, 08:10:36 am
I will go ahead and take care of the  :-X in the room.

BibleThump Bracketed formats are not a good idea for the main event of any Kong Off  BibleThump 


Below I have listed some examples of why this particular format doesn't fit competitive Donkey Kong (from my perspective). 

1.  The early randomness of the game (first 14 screens) is FAR too varied for single or even double elimination to have any type of correlation to skill-sets; a "safe" start strategy involves multiple "coin-flip" situations that will ultimately change the way you play the rest of the game, especially if things go bad on these first 14 screens.

2.  The time vested to learn a "KS strategy" is no more than 1/8th the amount of time it takes the fastest learning players to achieve 1.1M "paces", with enough reliability to survive to the end.  It doesn't seem right that anyone playing for less than 3 months should legitimately have a chance at beating players that have 5-10x the time vested and 5-10x the "knowledge mastery" of the game, simply due to "event format"

3.  We will be rewarding players for using elementary techniques rather than advanced techniques, and essentially be favoring the less experienced player (or at least the player with the most experience "running boards", wait and see! :-) ). IMO, this belittles the title of the Kong Off, significantly.

4.  DK is already excellent for score-based events because of the "difficulty buffer", the game gets exponentially harder as you increase scoring rate (there's that much more risk to process); in a high score based event, the game already buffers against the best players while favoring a "safe" strategy.

5.  People are traveling a long, long way, to basically flip a coin.  A bracketed event does not reward players for pursuing "mastery" of the game and will likely be a turn-off for some of the big name players (understandable).  I feel that the Kong Off should represent the "Best" players of the game, rather than those who feel they have the best chance of executing the first strategies we learned to play the game (everyone starts with running boards).

6.  This format supports the players who don't actively play the game anymore or are just starting;  I understand that's exciting for the audience and the newcomers, but It's basically a slap in the face to those who are putting in the time (or have already) to achieve some level of mastery in this game.

SUMMARY:

Brackets are a cool way to get new players interested in coming to the Kong off (+1), They're also a great way to let the "older players"(+1) or players who are "rusty" (+1) still have a reason to come and compete in the events and they seem exciting for the audience (+1).  However, at the end of the day, week, month, year, decade, etc., the community is focused on ultimate HIGH SCORE, which truly IS a representation of ones acquired skills on DK.  There is way too much variance in the game to decide the annual world champion with single- or double-elimination coin tosses; a few hundred coin drops really do a great job to buffer against the RNG variance in DK.

I support the idea of a bracketed event that would appeal to the audience and the newer or rusty players as an accessory event; in my opinion it's simply a coin flip, with little to NO representation of the skills of the individual.  I definitely like the bracketed concept and think we should have one, just not to determine the Champion of the Kong Off. 

tl;dr It simply can't be the main event, it would completely belittle the accomplishment that is pursuing a higher score on this game, "how high can you get?".  I definitely like the brackets and think we should have them, just not to determine the Champion of the Kong Off. 

Realistically, we have 4 days of coin drops, we could easily slide this in as an accessory event and really keep everyone happy (the audience, the rusty old men Kappa and the new players)

EDIT:  I would like to again thank Richie for his countless acts of self sacrifice,  I do not want to sound "ungrateful" in any way,  I absolutely realize the amount of work that goes into these events, and no amount of "thanks" could ever express how valuable Richie is to the DK community.  I absolutely see the benefit of brackets from the "spectator" standpoint and would be all in favor of publicly doing the brackets to help grow the audience (ie. calling out names of competitors, posting bracket times, covering specific cabs to entertain the masses and doing commentary during the matches) but the "crowned King of KO4" shouldn't be decided by this format, in my opinion.

Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: Dk_madness on March 29, 2015, 08:31:33 am
+1 Ethan.... I agree totally
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: homerwannabee on March 29, 2015, 10:17:17 am
As far as fairness goes, I can't argue that.  But as far as entertainment goes it is far more entertaining to have a head to head.  Bowling for years has learned this concept.  It's not whoever bowls the most 300 games wins the tournament, it's whoever averages the highest gets in the top 5, and you have a head to head bowl off.

Seeing people restart over, and over, and over, and over again is simply not the funnest thing to see unless you are a big time Donkey Kong fan.
To the casual observer head to head is much more entertaining even if higher scores are sacrificed.
Sides, lets be honest.  With this system Billy Mitchell and Steve Wiebe still have a shot at winning the tournament.  No way they win with the previous system.  Just too many good players over the course of 2 days to overcome.
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: marinomitch13 on March 29, 2015, 12:09:10 pm
I agree with Ethan. Have the bracket system for entertainment, but keeping the high score format from past years is a must. And... let's just be honest... even with the high score format from past years, there was no lack of excitement (e.g. Wiltshire's final game at KO3, just to name one)

tl;dr: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgk-lA12FBk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgk-lA12FBk)
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: lakeman421 on March 29, 2015, 01:06:15 pm
I'll throw a couple of cents into this discussion.  I have talked to Richie and  <Billy> about the next Kong Off.  One of the top goals for them is to have a way of getting the crowd involved and keep them entertained(I can't go too much into detail).  The bracketed system would work best for this idea to get the crowd involved.  From a spectators standpoint the matches in the bracket system would be shorter and less boring.  After doing live kill screens at arcades and events I realized people don't really care too much about what the end score is.  The excitement of the kill screen is great for the spectators and people who don't really know much about the game.  Any format that increases  <Wiebe>  <Billy> chances of winning would also be a crowd pleaser.

Now here's the other side.  The players are spending their time and money to attend this event, and they want to play.  Why travel that far to play just one game?  Nobody wants that.  The bracket system may test people's ability to handle pressure and it may not represent who the best player is that weekend.  In my opinion crowning a Kong Off champion who ran boards all day is not a good thing.  The prize money involved for the winners of the event is another thing to consider.  The top prizes shouldn't go to people who ran boards and won a bunch of coin flips since that doesn't ever win Kong Offs or DKOs.  Going for high score still has its exciting moments like Hank and  <Wiebe> finishing a game 100 points off.  The chance at seeing a new world record is something that gets people excited and talking about before every Kong Off.

So here's what I think we should do.  We should keep the old high score format to determine the Kong Off champion and who wins prize money.  Those things should go towards the players to truly earned it for pushing the winning score as high as it can go.  We should also do the bracket system as a side event for the spectators to keep them more involved and entertained.  There could also be a side game where spectators have prizes that they could win depending on which player they picked.  Every March Madness bracket people always have money on the line so we could try to do the same for this event.  If we are doing a four day event we could do one or two matches towards the end of each day.  So we all go for high score during an allotted time the first day and then play a match or two towards the end of the day.  Then the second day the winners of each match get to play and possibly give the other players more time to go for a high score.  And so on after that.  If a spectator sees the player they have prizes riding on win the first day chances are they will be back the next day to see their player play the next match.

Thats my take on it and my suggestion.  I honestly don't care too much about how it goes down.  I am just happy we are having a Kong Off, and will do what the players and organizers decide to do.  Going to events and socializing with other players and enthusiasts is what its mostly about for me. 
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: ChrisP on March 29, 2015, 02:11:03 pm
One thing that's confusing me a little about this reaction is that some form of bracketed competition has been the plan since KO4 was first announced, which was quite some time ago, and everybody seemed to like the idea of it up to now.

So it seems strange to wait until now, when the event is relatively soon, to voice objections to the idea.

That said, there is merit in the objections!
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: Xermon54 on March 29, 2015, 02:32:53 pm
I do agree with Chris. At first, people seemed very positive about the bracket style.

Personally, I do agree with everything Ethan said about the bracket tournament. But I also agree that head to head competition needs to happen. To combine both, we could do like 2 days of normal gameplay (who gets the highest score), and the last day, the four highest scorer of the first 2 days goes head to head against each other (all four players play one game against each player, head to head), then the 1st and 2nd position of the most wins battle in a last game head to head in a 2 out of 3.

Personally, I think having a top 4 players for bracket tournament instead of top 8 players could be better, like that people would need to point press very hard the 2 days to get in top 4 (we would most likely need to get 1.05m+ to get in top 4). And having 4 top players going head to head with each other would add more emphasis on the best players.

That's just my thoughts. I will obviously be very happy the way it will be!
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: VON on March 29, 2015, 02:33:38 pm
I thought this had already been resolved as well...

It was my understanding the first few days of the tournament would be a high score competition to seed the final bracket competition and eliminate low scoring players.

Yes? No?

Another suggestion I remember recommended having a high score competition for the players knocked out of the bracket competition.

Whatever the final format, I am sure it will include elements of both bracket style and high score competition, so rest easy.
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: VON on March 29, 2015, 03:39:15 pm
The more I think about it the more I feel the KO should absolutely include a bracket playoff.

Make the first two days a high score competition, then cut to a top 8 bracket playoff for the last day.

By only including the top 8 qualifiers in the bracket playoff, a lot of the aforementioned problems with boring play and low risk strategy actually begin to make things very interesting...

Do you really want to run boards against someone who qualified with a 1 million plus score?  OK, that's fair, but the million player can easily outpace the board runner so long as they survive.  In fact, the player running boards runs the risk of having their game end earlier than the point-presser (either because of seeing more bad rivets/pies or hitting the killscreen in less time), at which point the point-presser can just cruise in for the win.  Similarly, if both players decide to run boards, the more efficient player will still win out, and the point-presser can still turn it up at the end if required.

Whether or not the bracket playoff should be single-elimination, double-elimination or best two-of-three will depend on how much time we have to run the competition, and that decision will ultimately fall to the organizers.

I agree it would suck to have your day end early due to bad randomness on the early barrel boards, so I'm inclined to think a double-elimination bracket might be best, as two-of-three would just be too time consuming and tiring. 

My 2 cents.
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: lakeman421 on March 29, 2015, 03:51:03 pm
I think we can all agree that both formats should happen.  As long as the event organizers are aware of that and can find a way to make it happen in the given amount of time.  It seems like time is a big factor in making both formats happen.
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: VON on March 29, 2015, 05:29:33 pm
We should also remember how much fun the NH single-elimination bracket competitions were to watch, and that the best NH player won both times.

Of course, NH is a different game altogether, and exciting for different reasons, but if anything it is more random than normal play, so maybe single-elimination isn't such a bad thing, especially as it will reduce the time required to run the tournament.
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: marky_d on March 29, 2015, 11:21:58 pm
http://replayfx.org/competitions/kong-off-4/ (http://replayfx.org/competitions/kong-off-4/)
Title: Re: Kong Off 4 machine gets rolling
Post by: Xermon54 on March 30, 2015, 05:19:15 am
Thanks Mark, nice to see it official on the website. 5k looks like a pretty nice start, but I'm sure the prize will go up after finding other sponsors. And I think it's quite funny to see they mentionned Dean's score as being the World Record.  <Allen> Robbie is gonna go Sczerby mode and call replayfx and tell them being mentionned on their website as being the WR holder would've changed his life for the best  <Tim>