Ok for speed on springboard I've been multi mapping jump. I guess for some people this is irrelevant and when I play arcade I just double tap the jump to create the same scenario as pressing jump on two buttons on my keyboard. The reason I don't double tap keyboard as fast is mainly because arcade buttons have a spring inside which makes someone with big fingers like myself able to press it faster. On keyboard I get no such luxury and I prefer using two keys side by side to make my double tap. To be honest I don't even know if it actually works but to me it feels easier maybe it's a mental thing. In either case I wouldn't use anything far from normal settings as if one did that such as rapid fire they would be ineffective in an arcade setting. Since TG and DKF don't mind multi mapping then ill continue using that at home for the springboard jump and double Tap in arcade settings. Obviously if this was an advantage I wouldn't have hit 550k in an arcade as I would lack a key function to passing the springboard stage.

In any case I appreciate the quick feedback.

Definitely some interesting questions from Graham.  Mapping multiple jump buttons would be very helpful to deal with the broken Springboard IMO.  Hopefully no one is doing this on the MAME side currently -- I think that would open a can of worms . . .

Graham may not realize that the videos he is probably watching of top players playing DKJR often feature a "Track and Field Style" approach to using the jump button during the Springboard Jump -- the button itself is unmodified but the players ARE pressing the button incredibly quickly.

Note:  Just saw your last post -- you mention "I don't even know if it actually works" . . .  You may not be aware of some of the technical (code level) details that have been discovered with the Springboard -- long story short, it actually IS broken -- there is a small window of frames that you can press the jump button to get it to function properly, BUT every other frame within this window fails.  Therefore, pressing the button incredibly quickly during this time window IS advantageous to the player since it will increase your chances of landing on a "good frame". . .

Note that this sort of "multi-mapping" (two different keys/buttons to the same input) is not actually detectable in MAME .inp files since the file just records inputs, not the source.  The .inp file would be indistinguishable from someone using "Track 'N Field" style presses on a single button.

-George

You may not be aware of some of the technical (code level) details that have been discovered with the Springboard -- long story short, it actually IS broken -- there is a small window of frames that you can press the jump button to get it to function properly, BUT every other frame within this window fails.  Therefore, pressing the button incredibly quickly during this time window IS advantageous to the player since it will increase your chances of landing on a "good frame". . .

Dean, you may have gone into this elsewhere at some point in the past, but I've been curious why you interpret this as "broken."

It seems to me that not being able to get the superjump every time was intentional. In fact, I would actually find it stranger if it was designed such that you COULD get the superjump every time. To me it just seems like another deliberate random element added to make the game more dynamic, like the 300-500-800 smashes in DK.

Is there something about the way the code is "phrased" that would imply that having to hit the button on a good frame was an accident?

Well what I've been doing with decent success (not 100%) is press two jump buttons twice, so 4 total inputs on keyboard. Funny enough is when i'm on, my single presses are much more accurate but due to having to have near perfect timing which i'm known for in the fighting game community.

Anyway back to DKJR, If what Dean said is true then I am not gaining any any benefit from the method I'm using but psychologically it makes me feel as if I am since I'm foolishly pressing both jump at the same exact moment but twice real fast, similar to how I press the arcade jump. I guess I can unbind the left jump button since I'm not even rolling the buttons like I would on an arcade stick due to the lack of a bevel on keyboard buttons.

Btw what is the framerate for these games?

Framerate is 60 frames a second and inputs are read at the same rate.

If you're actually pressing both buttons at the exact same moment, the extra button isn't doing anything.  MAME is just reading the input port each frame, and it will be on if either button is pressed.  You can't turn the input port on more than once in a frame regardless of how many buttons you map to it and press simultaneously.

Quote from: up2ng on September 01, 2013, 07:37:35 pm

You may not be aware of some of the technical (code level) details that have been discovered with the Springboard -- long story short, it actually IS broken -- there is a small window of frames that you can press the jump button to get it to function properly, BUT every other frame within this window fails.  Therefore, pressing the button incredibly quickly during this time window IS advantageous to the player since it will increase your chances of landing on a "good frame". . .

Dean, you may have gone into this elsewhere at some point in the past, but I've been curious why you interpret this as "broken."

It seems to me that not being able to get the superjump every time was intentional. In fact, I would actually find it stranger if it was designed such that you COULD get the superjump every time. To me it just seems like another deliberate random element added to make the game more dynamic, like the 300-500-800 smashes in DK.

Is there something about the way the code is "phrased" that would imply that having to hit the button on a good frame was an accident?

That's strange, I've never heard anyone assume that before.  I feel the exact opposite -- to me, something like a "springboard" in a video game is something that I would intuitively believe should "always" work if the player executed it correctly.  There really should be nothing "random" about it.  Now, if you intended to just sort of bounce off of it or if you legitimately "missed" the timing of your jump then I can see why it should be programmed to give no "spring" to your jump in these cases, but when a good player intends to "spring" off of a springboard, they should be able to do so pretty much every time.

Think about other Nintendo platformers / Mario games.  Super Mario Bros. is a great example.  In that game the springboard is "fixed" -- as long as you jump within a reasonable period of time, you spring off of the springboard 100% of the time.

Keep in mind that a 6-frame window is really not a very long time anyways.  It would still take some knowledge and skill to press the button at the correct time to be within a 6-frame window (1/10 of a second).  Now, I haven't actually seen the code for DKJR, but I do have some knowledge about software code and logic in general and I know that these games were made very quickly and are full of bugs, poor design and poor code and based on that I have a very strong hunch that this is a bug.

When you slow it down and look at it frame-by-frame, what happens is that Junior is in contact with the springboard one frame and then Junior moves up a little bit the next frame, but the springboard does not -- they are now NOT in contact.  Then, the next frame, the springboard moves up and Junior does not and so they are back in contact again . . . and so on until the springboard is fully extended.  To me, this just screams huge bug.  The software probably performs a check of Junior's y-position to see if he is in contact with the springboard at the moment the button is pressed, assuming that he will be in contact throughout the motion -- but actually he is not because the two objects animate out of synch with each other.  This is silly anyways since there are probably dozens of other ways this software could have been effectively written, such as at the moment the springboard is fully retracted, simply count off 6 frames and make Junior "super jump" if the button is pressed -- why do we need to check Junior's position?  The ONLY time the springboard should be retracting is if Junior is ON it!  lol. 

I've seen some explanations that the out of synch animations might actually be done on purpose purely for aesthetic reasons when animating these motions -- it might not look as good if the two objects were rising together.  I don't buy it, but I suppose that's possible.  If so, they should have known to account for this in the super jump algorithm, but they didn't.  My belief is that they didn't even realize the objects were animating out of synch with each other and when the game was tested by novice players, the springboard did occasionally work, so they just assumed that it was working and that the testers just weren't very good at it.  But actually, it's broken.

Is it possible that this was actually done on purpose as a design choice for Junior to fail his super jump attempts a large percentage of the time?  Technically I'd have to admit that this is possible since there is no proof to the contrary, but realistically -- no, absolutely not . . . this is a bug, and an incredibly annoying one at that.

I do the double flap and get about 80%, I'd say. If I did a 3 finger scratch with a little timing, I think I'd do better, but I'm in no rush for 10% or so more.

Dean, if you watch my submission I am pretty steady on my jumps, I was able to land them as a child pretty consistently with a single press. The thing is if its a constant then it shouldn't be too bad. But here I'm using a double tap. I look at it this way, I know the single press timing well as I've practiced that. I suggest if you can master single press it will definitely help you master the jump as you can double tap to double your chances but knowing the single press makes it a lot more successful. Just make a save state of l4 springboard and just keep jumping over and over until you get the feel of it with 1 press, then toss in double tap or triple tap if you are quick enough.

Keep in mind in street fighter we often are forced to press a 1 frame move to live. I was playing the best zangief player in the world and basically if I missed this 1 frame reversal I lost the match, I landed it EVERY time knowing it was death otherwise. Part of making more success is having your adrenaline running you'll notice your palms get sweaty if you are really focused and this happens. When you are playing like that your reflexes and accuracy does increase. Basically when you get a fight or flight reaction from your body you can do things that are not normally possible. If you can train yourself to get in this mindset when playing you can improve your game, if you don't do this already. If this all sounds crazy you should see some of the stuff I've seen done by my brother and myself. I landed a 1/100,000 chance move, probably first ever done in any tournament setting when I was dead if the move didn't land. It was an impossible move. This stuff sounds like science fiction to some people but it is actually quite normal if you see it happen enough you begin to understand that it is something you can apply as a way to improve performance.