Donkey Kong Forum

Donkey Kong Strategy => Basic Donkey Kong Strategy => Topic started by: homerwannabee on September 10, 2013, 11:39:13 am

Title: To 1/16th or not to 1/16th, that is the question!
Post by: homerwannabee on September 10, 2013, 11:39:13 am

OK, here is the deal.  I understand that it makes perfect sense on level 5, and up to wait for Donkey Kong to release his barrel, and the only real exception to that rule is if a firefox is climbing the broken ladder, and is about to kill you.  But I wonder about level 3, and 4.

Is it really the best move to wait till Kong releases the barrel?  I mean his wild barrels make it so the odds of surviving are drastically reduced if you wait.   I'm also thinking there are some barrel combinations that could come down once in awhile combined with the wild barrels actually make it better to just go up the ladder during these times.  Plus one last thing.  Since Level 3, and Level 4 are early in the game you don't really waste that much in time if you get 1/16th.

So what do you say?  Is it better to forget about the 1/16th rule, and just charge up the ladder?

Title: Re: To 1/16th or not to 1/16th, that is the question!
Post by: ChrisP on September 10, 2013, 11:49:57 am

1/16th actually isn't a risk for levels 1, 2, 3 and the first 33 seconds of level 4 because Kong doesn't actually throw the standard "1/16th type" until L5 difficulty kicks in.

Your problem on those boards is actually worse, because that's when he's still throwing pinballers and murder barrels. 1/16thing is simple in comparison.

You're still in massive danger under Kong, but it's not 1/16th danger. Grit your teeth, pray you get the hammer in time, then get to the L1, 2, 3, 4 safe spot under his leg.

Title: Re: To 1/16th or not to 1/16th, that is the question!
Post by: mikegmi2 on September 10, 2013, 12:01:44 pm

My vote would be no.  It's always better to pay attention to Kong.

Title: Re: To 1/16th or not to 1/16th, that is the question!
Post by: marinomitch13 on September 10, 2013, 12:10:39 pm

If you want to take a calculated risk, go with Chris' idea. Many times it isn't very easy to have a full awareness of things to be able to soundly dodge the all the barrels/fireballs. 1/16th isn't that bad of odds compared to the impending doom many people feel when they are confronted with a wild barrel below Kong.

However, if you want to get better at dodging wild barrels below kong, and thereby acquired more awareness of your surroundings so that these situations don't present as much a threat and you don't need to as often rely upon unsound, calculated risks, then I'd advise spending some time with the Wild Barrel Hack of Jeff Willms'. It'd actually be best to not only use the WBH to practice below Kong, but also on the bottom girder a lot so you get used to having both rolling barrels and wandering fireballs to deal with in addition to the WBs.

Title: Re: To 1/16th or not to 1/16th, that is the question!
Post by: f_symbols on September 10, 2013, 01:13:32 pm

George,  you DON'T need to wait until the barrel has been released to make your move.  Lets divide the relevant DK animations into 3 types; 
1: DK turns left to grab the barrel
2: he then faces forward (toward the bezel or front of the cab)
3: DK turns right and releases the barrel

DK CAN ONLY release wild barrels from animation 2.  If he turns to position 2 and does not release the barrel as a wild, it is safe to continue, knowing he will roll the barrel. 

Note:  The number of frames the DK pauses in position "2" can vary between animation cycles.  He may turn to position 2, pause, and then release a wild barrel, or the barrel may be released the instant he changes from animation 1 to animation 2. 

wht da??  Wait until DK is changing from animation 2 to animation 3 and then react; all wild barrels are released during animation 2.

Title: Re: To 1/16th or not to 1/16th, that is the question!
Post by: TheSunshineFund on September 10, 2013, 01:19:04 pm

Quote from: f_symbols on September 10, 2013, 01:13:32 pm

George,  you DON'T need to wait until the barrel has been released to make your move.  Lets divide the relevant DK animations into 3 types; 
1: DK turns left to grab the barrel
2: he then faces forward (toward the bezel or front of the cab)
3: DK turns right and releases the barrel

DK CAN ONLY release wild barrels from animation 2.  If he turns to position 2 and does not release the barrel as a wild, it is safe to continue, knowing he will roll the barrel. 

Note:  The number of frames the DK pauses in position "2" can vary between animation cycles.  He may turn to position 2, pause, and then release a wild barrel, or the barrel may be released the instant he changes from animation 1 to animation 2. 

wht da??  Wait until DK is changing from animation 2 to animation 3 and then react; all wild barrels are released during animation 2.

This information was the missing piece provided to me by Hank to reduce my deaths enough to get to the killscreen.  Poser pace still.

Title: Re: To 1/16th or not to 1/16th, that is the question!
Post by: up2ng on September 10, 2013, 01:37:01 pm

Quote from: f_symbols on September 10, 2013, 01:13:32 pm

Note:  The number of frames the DK pauses in position "2" can vary between animation cycles.  He may turn to position 2, pause, and then release a wild barrel, or the barrel may be released the instant he changes from animation 1 to animation 2. 

Are you sure about this?  From what I've observed, wild barrels are always released basically immediately upon moving to animation 2.  So, once your brain processes he is holding the barrel in this position, he is not going to throw a wild barrel (or a bomb).

From what I understand about the cycle (Jeff Willms posted excellent details about this a while back), the only "pausing" occurs during "animation 4" (when DK has already released a barrel and is standing there facing outwards and/or beating his chest).

There is that 97 frame full cycle behind the scenes which is broken into 32 frame chunks, so 1 frame is skipped during this 97 frame cycle.  When this skip causes the program to loop back around for a fresh 32 frames (on the first half of Level 5 this occurs after every 5 barrels are released, assuming no wild barrels in that sequence), this causes Kong to "pause" during animation 4 before beginning the process over again.

Wild barrels have a different cycle length because he never goes into animation 3.  However, I'm not aware that there is any variation during animation 2 before releasing a wild barrel.  It's possible though I guess -- this seems like something that could be verified in the code . . .

Title: Re: To 1/16th or not to 1/16th, that is the question!
Post by: stella_blue on September 10, 2013, 04:05:24 pm

Quote from: up2ng on September 10, 2013, 01:37:01 pm

Quote from: f_symbols on September 10, 2013, 01:13:32 pm

Note:  The number of frames the DK pauses in position "2" can vary between animation cycles.  He may turn to position 2, pause, and then release a wild barrel, or the barrel may be released the instant he changes from animation 1 to animation 2. 

Are you sure about this?  From what I've observed, wild barrels are always released basically immediately upon moving to animation 2.  So, once your brain processes he is holding the barrel in this position, he is not going to throw a wild barrel (or a bomb).

I've done this analysis many times.  The results are consistent with Dean's observations.

Here is the animation sequence (beginning with the 2nd barrel released):

Normal Barrels

Frame		Delta
Number		Frames		Description of Animation
0		0		Timer is decremented by 100 (this is our reference point)
23		23		Kong faces left, reaching for the next barrel
47		24		Kong faces center, holding the barrel in front of him
71		24		Kong faces right, still holding the barrel
72		1		Kong releases the barrel, but it does not begin rolling
96		24		Kong returns to the "facing center" position
97		1		The barrel begins rolling along the girder

Wild Barrels

Frame		Delta
Number		Frames		Description of Animation
0		0		Timer is decremented by 100 (same reference point)
23		23		Kong faces left, reaching for the next barrel
47		24		Kong faces center, holding the barrel in front of him
48		1		Kong releases the wild barrel, but it does not begin moving
49		1		The wild barrel begins its rotation

After Kong turns to face center (from facing left), a wild barrel is always released on the very next frame.  I've never observed a pause of any duration.

EDIT:  As Dean points out, the final answer lies within the code.  A delay may very well be possible before a wild barrel is released; I've just never seen it occur in any of my data samples.

Title: Re: To 1/16th or not to 1/16th, that is the question!
Post by: f_symbols on September 10, 2013, 07:25:50 pm

Sorry guys, clearly the data speaks for itself. 

Depending on the type of wild barrel thrown/dropped, it appeared to me that the timings may vary.  As a safety measure, I always waited about half way into the 2nd animation to be sure i hadn't "jumped the gun".  I have done 0 code analysis and was going solely on "perception".

Title: Re: To 1/16th or not to 1/16th, that is the question!
Post by: corey.chambers on September 11, 2013, 11:06:39 am

I don't remember who said it but the spot under kongs foot is not a "safe spot" during levels 1, 2, and 3. The spot is only a safe spot if the wild barrels are type 2. Type 1 wild barrels WILL kill you in this "safe spot" for 66 seconds on level one and 33 seconds on level two. Type 2 wild barrels fly to the right because they are influenced by the position of mario in relation to where the wild barrel strikes a girder.Since mario is right of where the barrel is released by kong it flies over to the right.  If you jump a barrel under kong's foot during type 1 wild barrels, it can hit you in the head, etc.

So it is safe:

after 66 seconds on level one
after 33 seconds on level two
level 3 till about 3,500 then you will want to adjust to the edge of the ladder
since level 4 switches to type 3 wild barrels by the time you get to the top then go straight to the edge of the ladder
:)