Donkey Kong Forum
General Donkey Kong Discussion => General Donkey Kong Discussion => Topic started by: LMDAVE on January 28, 2013, 08:08:09 am
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I decided to take a cut at going over the existing TG DK recording rules and made suggestions on removing certain redundant steps. The steps in red are suggested to be removed with a comment rationale. I'm trying to let focus be on the post recording and relieve the burden of all the pre-recording and other steps during normal recording sessions.
I posted them as images because I wasn't sure if every had MS EXCEL.
I would like to hear input on other steps, or rebuttal to my suggestions if you see a step that should remain that I think shoudl be removed, and your rationale of course. Once finalized, maybe we can submit it to some at TG for their input/approval.
(http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2150/904309/21260953/405443182.jpg)
(http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2150/904309/21260953/405443188.jpg)
(http://pic90.picturetrail.com/VOL2150/904309/21260953/405443184.jpg)
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I was going to call in and bring this topic up on Arcade Culture last Saturday, but I slept through it. Honestly, I don't see why it shouldn't just be like every other game with a 4-way joystick and a button. It's pretty obvious that 1M scores are obtainable without cheating, so the whole point for putting these rules in place to begin with is now moot. Does using a switching power supply or a new Z80 chip really make a difference? I've used a switcher for a couple of records before and it was never an issue. Maybe that is an issue for some games, I don't know, but that's not the even the annoying part about the current DK submission rules. At a bare minimum, I would ask if all verification could be done after the game is finished and to be able to power cycle the machine to restart a game. That would make a world of difference and I don't think that's a lot to ask for.
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I agree that it should follow the other arcade games where your initial taping should just be an introduction of your name/date, show the power up to show copyright, score table etc...then play your game. Only do the post stuff afterwards if you score, and that post stuff should be able to be performed without having to take the PCB out just to show the video board, something that is also in line with other arcade cabinets. That pretty much makes it similar to other arcade rules. But, whatever is decided, either by someone talking to Richie, etc..it need to be reiterated through TG as a statement. I assume once the website is back up there will be a section describing arcade recording in general.
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1. Pre-verification is completely redundant. Why do you have to show the PCB at the beginning if you're going to do it at the end?
2. The Braze kits (high score save, D2K) should be allowed.
3. Showing the ROMs accomplishes nothing and proves nothing, as they can be rewritten with no physical evidence. You're as likely to have legit code on replacement chips as you are to have hot-rodded code on factory-stickered chips.
4. The power supply rule is senseless. You're not going to get more 800 smashes because you're using a switcher. (PSP put this rule into place because he noticed graphical glitches on some DK machines running off of a switcher. So instead of determining case-by-case whether someone's switcher was causing a problem, it became a "rule.")
5. As someone who had to play with an 8-way joystick for a couple of weeks, let me say unequivocally that it is NOT an advantage. It's as clumsy as having three legs.
I am really hoping that the new TG won't insist on adhering to rules that are obsolete, created during a time when the game was not understood as well as it is now, and most of which are "better safe than sorry" redundancies in response to POSSIBLE problems, as opposed to problems that are actually known.
Chuck 'em. The behavior of the game will speak for itself.
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I wouldn't be too quick change hardware, meaning allowing braze kits and 8-way sticks, I was mainly trying to get them to relax the amount of step with standard hardware. That would be a huge step right there. Asking them to accept hardware modification to too much of a leap I feel.
The only issue I have with the braze kit, and I own one, even in DK mode, you are running a rom set with additional modifications made, mods that save scores, adds sound to attract screen if wanted, has commands added for when you press player 1&2 to switch games. If DK2 Jeff wanted to, a braze kit can be made that can give you 75% 800's, or some other mod. I know by that same rationale that existing ROM chips can be modified to look the same, but it's a risk we hope doesn't happen. A lot of games have hardware kits, save kits, my missile command has the super missile command kit, which is similar to the DK2 kit.
I no opinion on the power supply thing, I would have to experience what he says happens.
But, just to get DK rules back down to normal arcade recording level with standard hardware is all I'm asking.
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And enough already with the initial entering after each failed attempt! What the hell does that prove? ;D
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I can at least speak for the disadvantage of an 8-way joystick. I played on a MAME cabinet once with one and I could barely get 100k. Someone would really have to practice with a joystick like that to even play at an equal level with the normal 4-way as the back and forth motions can often go horribly wrong, you can often watch off ledges on rivet screens, and even doing a simple front jump might lead to an accidental standing jump instead. And, as far as I have heard (from more knowledgeable people describing it to me), the 8-way joystick doesn't allow one to both climb a ladder and steer barrels at the same time.
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Dave hit the nail on the head with the redundant recording rules for the start up. I wish to see the D2K mod accepted only because of the risk of damaging the Z processor during constant removal and installation between D2K and DK. I'm not sure how much the kit affects the ramdomness if any. Personally I have not noticed a difference.
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The intentions of the redundancy is good to show that you have the same configuration from beginning and end, but is way overkill given that you are required to have a continuous recording. Did someone actually think that a boardset would be changed on the fly during a continuous recording without any blip or change of the highscore table?
Just as it is overkill of showing the title screen between every game just to prove it is still "1981 Nintendo of America". The high score table itself shows that it's the same recording if more than one game was played. If you played one game to 119,500 and the restarted immediately and the next game and got 997K, then 119,500 better be on the score board at the end. That's your record keeping right there, and at the end with the highscore table showing 997K and 119,500 you'll also see the title board come up with "1981 Nintendo of America". It's a continuous recording, nothing could have been changed and show these two things.
About DK2 again, I know it is a pain to install and remove the kit, but if you allow it, you have to allow klits for other titles. The last thing you want is to flip DK from being over-scrutinized to having preferential treatment.
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I agree with removing the red highlighted steps, as they don't really prove anything and only seem to waste a minute or two of you life...and that can add up if you play every day.
I don't think any kits should be allowed as that opens the window for speculation on whether or not it could have an effect on the game...and also would allow "homebrew" hacks to be used on DK machines whilst attempting a record score. Sure, your "original sticker" roms could easily be flashed with updated code, but having kits and extra parts installed takes it 1 more step further into the "what if" zone...and I don't think anyone wants to be there.
I'm no hardware wiz, far from it, but regarding things like originalk power supplies, and old vs. new Z80 chips...I mean, couldn't that have an effect? For instance, I swear up and down that after playing several of the machines at the Kong Off 2...some of them ran slower than others. Meaning, time between jumps, frequency of springs coming out on L4 elevators and up, speed of the barrels rolling, speed of leeching Kong points on rivets...I'm telling you a couple machines were slower...namely one of the Wild Card machines seemed to be slow. The speed that the code is cycling would be a significant thing that you would want to stay constant amongst machines. In a game where sometimes you have to make super quick decisions, and react to them immediately...a couple milliseconds could be the difference between dying on a rivet stage where your hammer runs out and a firefox is RIGHT next to you running at you and you have to jump or run away. That's fairly important.
Another thing that I sometimes think factors into creating a level playing field as far as gameplay goes (more so than original stickers on Roms or showing that your game is set to upright vs coctail settings) would be the way your controller is physically setup. What I mean by that is there is a variance (granted a small variance) in how far each player's controll stick must be moved both to the left and right to make Jumpman move. Again, this boils down to speed (how fast you can move your hand left or right...it does factor in...similar to how Thor had an avdantage over other top Tetris players because he could flip the pieces faster than anyone else) and reaction time (which again is very important during panic type situations during a long game of DK). One could argue, someone with a controller that's an extra few millimeters away from the microswitch actuator (or whatever the metal thing is called that activates the left/right movement microswitch) is at a small disadvantage.
You can say that you prefer the controller to be really lose...but the truth is, in some situations where you have to jerk the controller one way really really fast in order to avoid death, you're at a disadvantage compared to someone that has a super tight controller. Take out all the "I can make quick decisions and process them in my brain faster than that guy or this guy" kinda stuff...yes thats a special advantage you might have over someone else due to your own personal abiliities...but everything else held equal...it makes a difference how far you have to move the controller left or right to begin moving Jumpman.
Having said all that, it's essentially impossible to force everyone to some sort of crazy standard where you have to have the bottom of your controller stick xx millimeters away from the microswitch during an official game, but this is a Donkey Kong forum...and as such a place to discuss the most intricate details, crazy or not = )
The above reason would also be an argument for never combining MAME/Arcade scores. Having multiple fingers ready to push down on multiple keys that will move Jumpman in any direction you wish, in a flash, is an advantage over having to move your whole arm/hand to move a control stick one way or the other. As small of an advantage it may be, it's an advantage imho.
Take all the recording rules and player skill levels and set them aside, and lets talk about something that's probably more important/significant than anything else...the randomness of the game!
For an arcade game that is scrutinized and contested as much as Donkey Kong is, it's NEVER a level playing field, ever...due to the randomness of the game. Some games contain many more stressful scenarios, difficult situations, traps, screwings...etc...than others.
For example, would Vincent score less, as much, or higher than Hank, if Vincent was presented with the exact same game Hank played during his world record score? Would Hank be able to put up a higher score than Vincent did during Vincent's #2 world ranking game? How many times did Hank have to scramble (go freestyle, not follow the star pattern, etc) on a rivet screen and successfully survive? How many times did Vincent have to scramble on a Pie Factory screen (not get a free pass, deal with fireballs coming down to the bottom, being trapped for a while, have to maybe jump a fireball, etc), and survive?
I know it's impossible to do this, but it would be cool to allow another player play through another player's game...go through the exact same randomness. As long as the other player never saw footage of said game, it would be a cool way to attempt to completely level the playing field (everything else held equal)...down to the last barrel. Because it does make a difference...whether or not the barrels are steering properly on L5 and up. Not being able to steer allows for unjumpable combinations to be thrown your way...maybe ending your game prematurely. It makes a difference in scoring. 1 "re-jump" of a double barrel in the grouping spot is a net +400 to your barrel screen scoring average. Thats over 22,000 points right there...just due to 1 extra rejump per barrel screen.
On one side you can say that the above is part of the challenge of scoring really high on Donkey Kong, and on the other you could say that it's not a challenge at all, but disheartening, due to the fact that...who knows...maybe you'll never experience a "if-you-don't-make-any-stupid-mistakes-you-can-score-over-1.1M-points-during-this-game-of-Donkey-Kong" game.
Sorry for the long post = )
In the end, its a fun hobby and I enjoy it a lot.
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Personally, I will start recording, play the game, and if I reach the end of the game, I will record the back of my machine and put the camera on me, that's it. By doing that, Twin Galaxies act if we were kids. Donkey Kong deserves the same treatment as the other games!
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It is an excellent point and I completely agree that the randomness a player gets on the individual game that he ends up submitting to TG vastly outweighs any minor, subtle advantages obtainable through control differences, magical power supply smash-bonuses, and even modded ROMs (at least if they've been modded delicately enough to be undetectable by the ref).
The randomness in any given game ain't "subtle" at all! It dwarfs everything else.
Just as an example, a 400K player can get a freak kill screen one day if the stars align properly. If he happens to be taping it, then he'll suddenly find himself in the top 20 even though he's not actually that good.
For that reason, and many others, I take the TG DK rankings with a grain of salt, and I don't think that submissions should be Mruczeked to death.
If somebody wants to fake a score, there are dozens of ways to do so that would bypass every item on TG's checklist. The power of video editing software makes EVERY taped score a "what if". The only way to be sure is to perform a score live (which of course is problematic too because DK isn't an "on demand" kind of game).
As for D2K, I personally think that TG should have a whitelist of allowed hardware kits, whether for Donkey Kong, Tron, Missile Command or whatever. The kits should be evaluated case-by-case, and then cleared or forbidden based on the evaluation.
There is no good reason to inconvenience everyone and hold their machines hostage on the off chance that some as-yet-undiscovered factor *might* be in play on a kit.
The bigger problem is that these rules keep a significant number of players out of competition. The last thing we need to do is make it harder for people. And, well, I'll just put it this way: now that my D2K is in, it's not coming out! If that means I'm never on the TG leaderboard, oh well. Somebody is going to need to prove to me that the game is different on a D2K board before I jump through hoops to adhere to a rule that's in place for no demonstrated reason.
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Personally, I will start recording, play the game, and if I reach the end of the game, I will record the back of my machine and put the camera on me, that's it. By doing that, Twin Galaxies act if we were kids. Donkey Kong deserves the same treatment as the other games!
You'll probably get yours approved also by doing that, but not everyone who attempts to do it their own way gets away with it.
For example, I have a feeling that say I have a recording session with 9 quick restarts and I get the record on the 10th, and I forgot to let the screens cycle on one of the 9 restarts, that someone will say "Hey he didn't follow the rules so it's not valid." That may be extreme, but I try my hardest not to be in that situation. I'm very big on following rules and don't feel anyone should get special treatment, that's why I want the rules changed (they are way overblown, but I'm not the governing body). Rules are needed, and as bad as these suck, TG needs to be the one to relax the rules. And until they do, I'll just keep doing it.
I'd love to do your suggestion Vincent, but something tells me mine wouldn't be approved.
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From what I understand, many players have submitted scores that didn't follow every rule exactly but were still accepted. The ref has some freedom in making the call.
Actually, now that I think about it, I don't know of anyone whose score was rejected because they didn't follow every step, and it's hard for me to imagine that every single person on the TG list followed them all!
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Is there a TG ref in the house?!?
Oh wait......
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Chris, I'm not sure who may have not followed the rules, but looking at the arcade top 10, as it was before TG went down. Billy and Steve were already grandfathered in before these crazy rules started, I know Hank does the rules thoroughly, I know I do, I just assume Mark, Shaun, Kyle, Ben, and Eric did based on chatting with some of them, now for the scores in the 800-900K range there may have been some relaxing on it.
But, when Im shooting for a top 5, or maybe even #1, I can't take the risk of not having it recorded correctly. That would suck.
It would be interesting to see one turned down though, especially with it being streamed live also. Hopefully you guys would have my back on the game being real if that ever happened.
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I do agree with you that the world record would probably be scrutinized a lot more than a simple kill screen and that you should be safe.
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Is there a TG ref in the house?!?
Oh wait......
Is there anything you can tell us Steve? Are changes in the DK recording rules in the works?
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If you're rational and you know it clap your hands......
What I know is you have 2 head refs currently on staff both of which have achieved kill screens and therefore know and understand the game as well as being very responsive and involved in the community at large in a very positive way.
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I'm with Dave and Vincent on this. I think hardware should remain dedicated original, with the possible exception to the power supply. A switching power supply is way easier and cost effective to replace if anything happens. As for the redundant recordings, they drive me nuts. At KO2, nobody had to record their games in entirety, and nobody had to let the cycle screen pass before restarting, and yet several players are getting scores verified from ko2. I would like to see the rules changed to allow the player to turn the machine on, let the boot up screen be shown, begin playing with restarts as needed without cycle screens needed, and if you hit the score you wanted, then open up the machine and continue the original rules from there. I don't think any kits should be allowed just for the sake of any doubt or argument being made. I get tired of having to move my arcade machine out from the wall every time just to start playing and have nothing to show for the hassle at the end of the night. Let us play it, and then open it up if needed at that time. Hopefully this entire post will be brought to TG's awareness.
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Hopefully this entire post will be brought to TG's awareness.
I can assure you that they are already aware of it. ;)
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Hey Steve, thanks for the input. Yes, being able to leave the machine against the wall like it's suppose to be would be a pleasant relief. Having my DK machine constantly pulled out on a 45 deg angle in my allready overcrowded garage just so I can open the back before every attempt is just not neccesary. I'd be happy to pull it out afterwards and record all the good stuff with the continuous recording.
In my belief what happened back when they started to allow recordings of DK again was TG had a brainstorming session of how DK should be recorded, and each and every one in that session probably had their own belief on how a machine can be tricked, so they all threw their own safegaurds in the pot and we ended up with what we have. I think the mentality was, when you play DK, (like playing missile command, asteroids, etc) that you just put a quarter in and that will be the game whe you decide to play it. They weren't considering that the DK attempts for submission could take someone countless tries overs weeks or months, and having numerous restarts. I think the mentality was, if you're good at DK you shouldn't have to do it more than once or twice.
I'm trying to remember the exact time that someone had to put their foot down at TG and say "no more DK submissions over one million unless a senior ref is present." I forgot what exactly triggered that. And I wish there was a qualified DK player at the time that could have squashed the disbelief that even suggested it. There just wasn't the convincing arguement back to a Dwayne or Tim S, or whoever it was feeding this uneccessary complaints into TG. That was the only way they could shut them up at the time.
Basically all we are trying to do is place the rules back to how it was before all of that unecessary overeaction happened.
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I wish Dwayne hadn't taken down that video where they were all standing around in a room deconstructing Steve's game, and dead wrong on just about every single point.
Of course, the bigger mystery is why he put the video up in the first place! I think Dave also said "why now?" in the CAG thread about it.
What I don't understand is why TG seems (or seemed) to allow a few noisy, cranky naysayers to dictate policy, rather than consensus/community opinion. So because one guy had some ill-educated, unfounded doubt, you have to inconvenience all the players in order to be sure that guy is satisfied?
Having said that, I guess I can see why TG wouldn't want to listen to all the bellyaching from score-doubters...