Donkey Kong Forum
General Donkey Kong Discussion => General Donkey Kong Discussion => Topic started by: ChrisP on March 06, 2013, 02:56:18 pm
-
Yea, I felt foolish for not recognizing how the fireballs behave in D2K
There were several things in both DK and D2K that made me facepalm when I finally got around to noticing them.
This thread is about those things.
Here are a few of my examples:
I had actually kill-screened the game before I even became conscious of the fact that you could vertical-jump two adjacent barrels. It seems like a rookie fundamental but it was one of many things that a player can go far and get away with not knowing, and I did. Somewhere far back in my learning I had decided that you always had to forward-jump barrel combos unless their pixels overlapped by a third or more, and just never questioned it again.
Even after seeing players do it, I would quickly forget about it, not realizing how important it really was, and how many lives I would save once I finally started recognizing/putting it into practice.
I actually STILL struggle with it. I have to remind myself constantly that this or that combo is safe to vertical-jump. One time Hank was watching me stream, I was at million-plus pace, I lost a last man on a needless forward-jump, and he said "why didn't you just vertical jump?" I didn't have a good answer.
A couple other things that took me longer than they should have:
- That the conveyor switches directions when Kong hits the edge
- That you can't die from a timeout while in the air (thanks Ben!)
- Mentioned in another thread: that after L2 in D2K, DK doesn't throw any blue barrels except the first
I'll see if I can think of more. What are your "I can't believe I didn't notice that before"s?
-
Another one is realizing that you can steer barrels multiple levels above you. It takes a while before people can slowly 'remove the blinders' of only watching the portion of the screen with Jumpman in it and start first seeing the girder above them, and then, finally, all the girders above them. I spend very little time actually watching Jumpman unless I need to be very precise on a specific jump or trying to get to a ladder.
In all actuality, just SDTBL isn't always enough; it just gets you out of more immediate binds. Learning how to steer/not steer every barrel on the board to your advantage is the ultimate ideal.
-
I had already killscreened DK before I recognized only 500 points are awarded for the jumping of three objects. It wasn't until I started learning about point-pressing that I realized how bad the game cheats.
-
I know some people also didn't know about the wall jumps from the top two rivet platforms until Ross did them at the first wildcard rematch. That's funny, cuz, when I first started playing DK, almost immediately after I first did a wall jump to grab the left rivet hammer that was one of the next things my curiosity made me test.
-
Speaking of rivets, the tactic Dean uses at the end of his 1.16 game blew my mind when I first saw it (where he was pinned next to Kong, waited for the climbing firefox, and then jumped over the firefox and shot down the ladder). I remember thinking "wow, what a brilliant improvisation!"
Nowadays that move has become practically routine for me! I didn't realize how executable it was, how often it would come in handy, and how high the success rate actually is. I would have saved a lot of games if I'd picked that up earlier.
People say that DK is "solved," but I don't think that's true. I feel like there are actually many tactics yet to be discovered, and a lot of "right answers" that aren't actually right (I also feel like most of the discovery yet to be made is on the rivets, which is one of the reasons I consider it the most interesting screen).
-
lol, you dont time out in the air...so dam obvious once someone points it out!
been playing a long time and i still forgo the customary jump when clearing the last rivet deep in the zero *facepalm*...
8)
-
Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uGgoBcgypY#) a video that features a few tricks that some may still not know about. I put this together back in 2008 so it's a bit outdated. There are a million more tricks and tactics to feature so maybe someday I will throw together "Goofing About #2".
-
A couple other things that took me longer than they should have:
- That the conveyor switches directions when Kong hits the edge
- That you can't die from a timeout while in the air (thanks Ben!)
- Mentioned in another thread: that after L2 in D2K, DK doesn't throw any blue barrels except the first
I'll be honest. As the late Johnny Carson used to say, "I did not know that."
I've always cleared the final rivet by jumping, rather than running over it. It's mainly a stylistic thing, a personal signature to punctuate the end of the stage. It's nice to know there's a sound tactical basis for doing so.
-
Speaking of rivets, the tactic Dean uses at the end of his 1.16 game blew my mind when I first saw it (where he was pinned next to Kong, waited for the climbing firefox, and then jumped over the firefox and shot down the ladder). I remember thinking "wow, what a brilliant improvisation!"
Nowadays that move has become practically routine for me! I didn't realize how executable it was, how often it would come in handy, and how high the success rate actually is. I would have saved a lot of games if I'd picked that up earlier.
I've been using that move in recent months, although I'd estimate that my survival rate is only about 60%. On the Level 1 and 2 rivet stages, I'll continue the foot jumping routine with 2 firefoxes on the right side of the screen, knowing full well that I might have to use it. But on Level 3 and beyond, I view it as a last resort, if I find myself trapped. I'd rather end a taunting session prematurely and sacrifice a few points now, in exchange for the opportunity to rack up more points later.
-
Here are a couple other tricks I thought of:
-You can leech barrels rolling down a ladder *without* having to hold left or right (you just have to be super close, kinda like how you can also leech kong without using the joystick)
-It's tough to describe, but you can actually 'hide' between the base of the the inside-top-right ladder and the rivet hole from a fireball that is descending the ladder; then, as it first heads to the left, you have a chance to quick run up the ladder to clear the last rivet (assuming the top right rivet is the only one left). I had to use this once because I didn't wanna risk jumping across the rivet hole and landing on a fireball that was over there, and I didn't have time left to retreat to the left if the fireball came down. When I discovered this I was amazed.
-
Actually maybe I should take the timeout thing off of the "obvious" list. It's not exactly the most straightforward thing.
If anyone wants to test this, get the timer to "0" and start rapid-jumping. Note that you will always freeze and die on the "land" animation (or at least never in the air, in any case).
-
Here's a video that features a few tricks that some may still not know about. I put this together back in 2008 so it's a bit outdated. There are a million more tricks and tactics to feature so maybe someday I will throw together "Goofing About #2".
Thanks for reposting this Ross! I forgot how amazing this video was. When you first put it together it really opened my eyes up to how cool DK could actually be (and how good you were at it).
-
Here are a couple other tricks I thought of:
-You can leech barrels rolling down a ladder *without* having to hold left or right (you just have to be super close, kinda like how you can also leech kong without using the joystick)
-It's tough to describe, but you can actually 'hide' between the base of the the inside-top-right ladder and the rivet hole from a fireball that is descending the ladder; then, as it first heads to the left, you have a chance to quick run up the ladder to clear the last rivet (assuming the top right rivet is the only one left). I had to use this once because I didn't wanna risk jumping across the rivet hole and landing on a fireball that was over there, and I didn't have time left to retreat to the left if the fireball came down. When I discovered this I was amazed.
I had to read that second trick 3 or 4 times, but I think I know what you mean, Mitch. I tried to set it up on Level 1-2 just a few moments ago. I didn't succeed, but my 3-story plunge through the rivet gap earned me an average score of 9.85 from the international judges. :)
On my second attempt, the firefox reached across the gap and tasered me. Important safety tip: don't position yourself for this move while the fire object is on the same girder.
My third attempt also ended in death, this time by the firefox descending the ladder. The trick seems to require "pixel perfect positioning" (or "PPP", if inducted into the DK Acronyms thread at a future date).
-
There are actually a lot of "hail mary" moves that can be executed on the rivets. "The situation is hopeless unless I try something and it works." Such tactics start to reveal themselves when you play a lot of no-hammer. ;)
DK players are trained to approach situations in such a way as to inoculate themselves totally from the possibility of death (for obvious reasons since 4 lives are so precious and scant), but there's a whole playbook of "when all else fails..." stuff where you have a 25% or greater chance of dying, but you at least have a fighting chance (as opposed to a "whatever, I'm just going to panic and die" chance). None of it is as well-known because it's not talked about as much, and is far harder to set up and practice.
-
Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uGgoBcgypY#) a video that features a few tricks that some may still not know about. I put this together back in 2008 so it's a bit outdated. There are a million more tricks and tactics to feature so maybe someday I will throw together "Goofing About #2".
I've always loved that video. I appreciate not only the skills needed to execute many of those techniques, but also the innovative thought process required to conceptualize them in the first place.
That video was my introduction to the top shelf jump on the elevator stage. I have since performed it successfully many times.
It was also my first look at the oil can jump on the conveyor stage. I have performed that one successfully -- wait for it -- exactly zero times.
If you do put together a "Goofing About #2" sequel, might I suggest working the "Sabre Dance" into the accompanying soundtrack?
Sabre Dance (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY3RkXkOXbs#)
-
Haha, Scott, I can't believe you actually tried to replicate it! Not only have I only ever tried that maneuver once, I've only ever had one opportunity to even need to use it. I remember doing in one of my last serious mame games I ever did, and I think during the time I was quite into dodging fireballs by standing as much over an edge as I could and simply jumping when they approached (I often trapped myself on the side conveyor platforms, you see... :P ). I'm not sure what percentage of the time the ledge-avoidance-technique (LAT, another acronym???) works, but I think it may be better than simply trying to jump the fireball. We'll have to see what Dean thinks, since he seems to have a deeper knowledge than I do about the distances that fireballs need to travel before they turn around. As far as that specific example on the rivets, you may be right in that it takes 'PPP'.
Chris, kind off topic, but talking about the Rivet screen: I think I've realized a 'how to proceed with things if the star pattern fails' situation that I've seen a lot of people do incorrectly. This might start a debate, but, in the rare case that a fireball blocks you off from getting the very bottom left rivet, I think it is actually best to just skip it and continue on and get the top left two rivets. I've seen several people try to dance around and get delayed trying to get this rivet, only to then get delayed further trying to get the top two rivets or even the hammer on the way back down. The main reason I think it is generally best to just continue on, is because the bottom left rivet is significantly easier to just grab later than, say, if you were to skip any of the other 3 left-rivets: simply draw all the fireballs up to the top (later, when they are trapped on the left), then outrun them to the bottom. What do people think?
-
There were several things in both DK and D2K that made me facepalm when I finally got around to noticing them.
This thread is about those things.
Hey Chris, I had actually been planning to initiate a similar topic, something along the lines of "DK strategies and techniques that you acquired by watching other players, or by reading it somewhere" versus "Stuff that you figured out entirely on your own". I would have posted it already, but there were a couple of stumbling blocks:
- Separating the totality of my DK knowledge into one of those categories (it's a short list, so that's the easier part)
- Condensing the subject line into a more concise description that still gets the message across (a bit more tricky)
You've addressed the second issue for me. As soon as I take care of the first item, I'll attach the results somewhere in this thread (with your approval). :)
-
It took me about a month of playing before I realized you had to retreat on elevators. I actually got all the way up to 640K without ever retreating and not a single elevator death in that game (I still have that .inp and reviewed it). Obviously it was very lucky.
My breakthrough moment-- I was (re)watching King of Kong and heard Wiebe say:
"And the secret to the third elevators is knowing which spring to go on, and then knowing which spring to move up the ladder on, and recognizing when you must retreat."
Lightbulbs went off in my head. Somehow I had missed the retreat part the first 9 times I watched KoK.
-
It took me about a month of playing before I realized you had to retreat on elevators. I actually got all the way up to 640K without ever retreating and not a single elevator death in that game (I still have that .inp and reviewed it). Obviously it was very lucky.
My breakthrough moment-- I was (re)watching King of Kong and heard Wiebe say:
"And the secret to the third elevators is knowing which spring to go on, and then knowing which spring to move up the ladder on, and recognizing when you must retreat."
Lightbulbs went off in my head. Somehow I had missed the retreat part the first 9 times I watched KoK.
When my brother and I were playing DK every weekend in the 80's, we only knew that when a spring came out as what appeared to be moving faster it was usually bad. We both managed to get 500k in the same 2p game once back in 1989 or 1990 certainly without the DK knowledge of springs that we know now. Very lucky as well.
-
It took me 9 months (from when I started playing to when I reached my first kill screen) to start taking the bottom hammer on the conveyer.
On my first two kill screen games, I NEVER took the bottom hammer. Back in the day, I thought it was less risky, to stay on the first platform (when a lot of fireballs were chasing you), and wait for them to go away to finish the level (instead of taking the bottom hammer, smash them, and climb up). In fact, obviously, in term of points, it's by far better to take the bottom hammer when you don't have a free path (and when you have the time to take the bottom hammer). But in term of survival, waiting on the first platform for the fireballs to go away wasn't that much riskier than taking the bottom hammer, in my opinion! But I often ended with 3k points on conveyer.
And it took Phil Tudose 1 year and a half to realize that there are more than one level in the game. Must've been a shock for him.
-
When I got my first killscreen I didn't even know that you could get triple 100 pts from the same barrel on the same platform.
-
When I got my first killscreen I didn't even know that you could get triple 100 pts from the same barrel on the same platform.
How the hell did you manage to reach a kill screen without even knowing that?! You were lucky!... haha.
-
Going back to the rivets the thing I'm trying to perfect is unplugging a rivet by walking halfway on it then turning 180 without going tothe other side. Why would you need this some will ask. Well I use it incase I have only a split second to get the rivet before the firefox is there and running completely over then jumping back over isn't an option. It has saved my butt a few times but I've also miss judged it and run too far and turn back into an empty rivet and die. I hope people k ow what I'm talking about. Lol.
-
Oh and the turning under a ladder as a barrel is coming down on you as you turn the hammer goes to the top swing. I thought that was cool for the barrel stage.
-
Bliss, removing the rivet without going all the way across it is actually also a very advanced strategy for gaining more points on the rivet screen. If you can do this while wielding the top hammer, it can significantly decrease the risk of getting blocked off from the last top-right rivet by any fireballs that spawn on the right if you choose to go even more all-out at hammering fireballs on the left side. It is only really aptly usable in a small subset of situations though, I imagine.
-
a video that features a few tricks that some may still not know about. I put this together back in 2008 so it's a bit outdated. There are a million more tricks and tactics to feature so maybe someday I will throw together "Goofing About #2".
That was awesome, thanks for sharing that. I'll be sure not to try anything I just saw this weekend lol
-
Oh and the turning under a ladder as a barrel is coming down on you as you turn the hammer goes to the top swing. I thought that was cool for the barrel stage.
I'm sure I've missed out on a few hammer smashes by not executing that move when I've had the opportunity. To be honest, although I've done it successfully many times, it still frightens me.
-
Me too Stella. When donkey kong drops a bomb on me I use it too. It's a timing thing with that.
-
Me too Stella. When donkey kong drops a bomb on me I use it too. It's a timing thing with that.
When he drops the bomb, please tell me you're on the 5th girder, and not the 2nd.
Performing an overhead smash on a bomb with the bottom hammer would be very impressive!
-
I'm sure I've missed out on a few hammer smashes by not executing that move when I've had the opportunity. To be honest, although I've done it successfully many times, it still frightens me.
Doing that move can be risky if you go under the ladder, can't smash the barrel and don't have enough time to get away from the barrel before it hits you!
Personally, each time I smash a barrel going down a ladder, I assure myself that I will have the time to get away from the ladder if I'm not able to smash it while in midair. 25% of the time, I fail at smashing it, so I just move away from the ladder, then turn back and smash it when the barrel reaches the platform.
When you go directly under the barrel when the barrel is slightly over your head and you miss to smash it, then good chances are you will die!
-
Top hammer. Lol. If I'm at the bottom I'll just stand off to the side and if I hit it cool if not at least I'm still alive. Lol. If I have done it it was pure luck on that.
-
Going back to the rivets the thing I'm trying to perfect is unplugging a rivet by walking halfway on it then turning 180 without going tothe other side. Why would you need this some will ask. Well I use it incase I have only a split second to get the rivet before the firefox is there and running completely over then jumping back over isn't an option. It has saved my butt a few times but I've also miss judged it and run too far and turn back into an empty rivet and die. I hope people k ow what I'm talking about. Lol.
I understand completely. I frequently use that move when I have either hammer on the rivet stage. I'll head to the right and park myself on top of the rivet, waiting to smash a fireball that's either (1) a freezer on the same girder, or (2) coming up/down one of the ladders from below/above. I try to avoid completely crossing the rivet, unless the hammer is about to expire and none of the fireballs have any intention of moving far enough left to be within striking range. Early in the hammer cycle, I don't want to leave myself stranded on the small platform, for 2 reasons:
- I don't want to set myself up for an ambush, trapped by fireballs on both sides, once the hammer runs out.
- I don't want to give up the option of returning to the left for additional possible smashes.
A less common situation is where a freezer is guarding one of the top rivets, very close to it, such that a full crossover is not possible. In those cases, I might try the move you've described. I've had some success with it, but my survival rate is far below 100%.
-
I usually use it say top hammer and I didn't steer a barrel down the first ladder and two barrels later I steer a barrel down and I can either hit the barrel coming at me and miss the barrel coming down the ladder due to not enough time or hit the ladder barrel as it comes down to the girder and hope I have enough time to hit the barrel behind me or I can try the quick turn barrel coming down on the ladder hope I hit it and then hit the barrel coming towards me. Lol. Hard to explain. I do different things depending on where I'm at in a game.
-
I usually use it say top hammer and I didn't steer a barrel down the first ladder and two barrels later I steer a barrel down and I can either hit the barrel coming at me and miss the barrel coming down the ladder due to not enough time or hit the ladder barrel as it comes down to the girder and hope I have enough time to hit the barrel behind me or I can try the quick turn barrel coming down on the ladder hope I hit it and then hit the barrel coming towards me. Lol. Hard to explain. I do different things depending on where I'm at in a game.
No worries, I followed that.
I've had the overhead smash backfire on the rivet stage, in situations where I'm certain the hammer will run out before the fireball reaches the bottom of the ladder. I'll misjudge how quickly/slowly the fireball is descending the ladder, which leads to a mistimed turnaround. I'm usually not pleased when that happens.
-
Here's a recent discovery that I'm somewhat embarrassed to admit. At the risk of seeing my face on a future cover of "Idiots Quarterly", here goes:
A few days ago, I had a game where my first death was on a conveyor stage, killed by a fireball on the final ladder. I was a few pixels from the top when the ladder retracted. It was one of those excruciatingly long delays, where the fireball had plenty of time to make a sandwich, take a nap, and still get me. Frustrated, I sat back and viewed the screen as a whole. While my ladder (the one on the left) was fully retracted, the other one was fully extended. Huh?
I never realized that the 2 retractable ladders could be out of sync. Thousands of pie factories, and I never noticed it. Tunnel vision at its finest.
-
At the risk of further blowing your mind, I must also point out that the ladders actually remain extended for a set period of time, which is somewhere between 4 to 5 in-game timer seconds on the level 5+ timer. At the beginning of every pie factory (again, level 5+), the right ladder retracts almost immediately, while the left ladder remains extended until the 7200 mark. If the ladders extended immediately after fully retracting it would be possible to fully know their sequencing. However, as we all know, the time ladders remain retracted is random, and thus their overall sequencing is random. But yes, from the moment each ladder fully extends, it will remain extended for 4-5 timer seconds every time.
Hopefully this information will save a life or two.
-
Thanks, Ross.
By the way, have you considered my "Sabre Dance" request, posted back on the 1st page of this thread?
https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=140.msg1719#msg1719 (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=140.msg1719#msg1719)
-
Yes thank you, I will definitely use "Sabre Dance" if I make another video. No guarantee I will make any more compilation videos though. One problem is that I lost the software with which I was making videos. I know I can save my broadcasts straight to drive with FME, so I'll check it out and if that option makes editing possible then the possibility of making another video will increase.
-
My mind is blown.
I was just reading Steve Sanders very, uh, interesting Donkey Kong book from 1981 and it actually taught me something that I did not know (and believe me, for this book, that is a feat).
I haven't seen anyone else mention this either so here goes:
It turns out you can actually leech Kong on the rivets WITHOUT pressing the stick left/right! You just have to get superclose (you need to get closer on the left side than on the right). Obviously you have to be on the exact pixel, and you're screwed if you get too close, but if you're able to nail it, you can leech Kong just by pressing jump!
When I read that I just thought it was incorrect (this book has at least one inaccuracy per paragraph), but I fired up MAME just to make sure and I'll be damned.
Am I the only one who did not know this?
-
Haha. Allen does this every now and then because he is a doofus...I'm surprised you never noticed! ;D
-
This is seriously how I'm going to roll from now on.
Having to yank the stick is obnoxious, and I always have this vague fear that I'm going to accidentally press the stick at the wrong instant and directional-jump across the rivet and either clear the board or land on the firefoxes on the other side of the hole.
-
thats a new one on me too Chris, someone posted recently that you can do it with barrels going down the ladders too so makes scense...
i never could find a pdf of sanders book, if anyones up for sharing id be interested in reading it...
cheers
8)
-
My mind is blown.
I was just reading Steve Sanders very, uh, interesting Donkey Kong book from 1981 and it actually taught me something that I did not know (and believe me, for this book, that is a feat).
I haven't seen anyone else mention this either so here goes:
It turns out you can actually leech Kong on the rivets WITHOUT pressing the stick left/right! You just have to get superclose (you need to get closer on the left side than on the right). Obviously you have to be on the exact pixel, and you're screwed if you get too close, but if you're able to nail it, you can leech Kong just by pressing jump!
When I read that I just thought it was incorrect (this book has at least one inaccuracy per paragraph), but I fired up MAME just to make sure and I'll be damned.
Am I the only one who did not know this?
Ironically I was the opposite. I did not know that you could press the stick left or right to get the 100 points. Originally I was going one or two pixels away to do my point pressing. I was frequently frustrated wondering how people could routinely do this without dying. LOL!
-
Chris: You can also do it with barrels (if you're extremely close to it, you just need to jump near it (not over it) without pushing left/right and still earn the 100 points). Obviously, there are no reasons to try that in a real game, but that's still cool to know!
-
This is seriously how I'm going to roll from now on.
Having to yank the stick is obnoxious, and I always have this vague fear that I'm going to accidentally press the stick at the wrong instant and directional-jump across the rivet and either clear the board or land on the firefoxes on the other side of the hole.
If I were playing DK on an arcade machine, I might be inclined to do the same thing, but using a keyboard with MAME makes it a no-brainer (at least for me). The generosity of the proximity detection routine allows me to straddle the narrow vertical support leading to Pauline's platform and still get the 100 points. Both types of player controls require the discipline to refrain from instinctively using L/R directional input after a mistimed jump (such as jumping too soon after landing). In that regard, I believe that pressing an arrow key is less prone to error than physically pushing the joystick left or right.
-
My mind is blown.
I was just reading Steve Sanders very, uh, interesting Donkey Kong book from 1981 and it actually taught me something that I did not know (and believe me, for this book, that is a feat).
I haven't seen anyone else mention this either so here goes:
It turns out you can actually leech Kong on the rivets WITHOUT pressing the stick left/right! You just have to get superclose (you need to get closer on the left side than on the right). Obviously you have to be on the exact pixel, and you're screwed if you get too close, but if you're able to nail it, you can leech Kong just by pressing jump!
When I read that I just thought it was incorrect (this book has at least one inaccuracy per paragraph), but I fired up MAME just to make sure and I'll be damned.
Am I the only one who did not know this?
Actually, back in the day, that was the only way I did it. Funny thing is when my daughter was watching me play when I first got my machine, she ended up playing and she got to the rivets and I walked up on her and there she was leeching kong because she saw me doing it, she just got close enough to make it work.
The reason it works is because when you jump the program looking so many pixels left and right for an object that can kill you (say 5 pixels), when you press left or right, the range is increased to I think 19 pixels left and right, because it thinks you are running and jumping and it is neccesary to open it up that wide to complete the detection during a barrel jump. However, we've exploited this program routine to make it work for tons of more situations than was intended. (leeching kong, leeching springs as they pass, leeching fireballs as the chase you, etc..)
And if no one has ever read D2K JEFF's analysis of certain DK bugs, this reading is a treat to describe behind the scenes stuff:
http://www.jeffsromhack.com/products/donkeykong_tech.htm (http://www.jeffsromhack.com/products/donkeykong_tech.htm)
-
From the point of starting the game last year from scratch and not knowing anything about the game I had some parts about the game I didnt know that was kind of embarrassing. It took me a month to realize that firefoxes can't cross a rivet hole after it's been cleared I thought they could just go wherever at anytime. I had already been a kill screen player and on my way to a million before I knew that you only get 500 points for a 3 object jump. Vincent was the first one that ever mentioned it to me and I thought he was joking at first until I actually looked and saw for myself. I guess I just focus so much on Jumpman and the game itself to realize some of these things. Then seeing Ross bouncing off the walls on the top two platforms on the rivet stage I had never seen that or knew you could do that. It's funny how I didn't know about these things but knew to steer barrels platforms above me and could steer while on the ladder and to retreat within the first month of playing elevators. That's what makes this game great is that everyone learn every aspect of the game differently because there are so many possible situations and results, along with how we all see things differently at first glance. Playing the game for a while and experimenting with ways out of tight situations result in discovering these little tricks. Like that video I posted when I jumped the oilcan in the pie factory because two fireballs were on the conveyor, I had no idea you could do that until I was in that situation and just went for it.
-
Interesting topic. In my very early days of playing DK, I had seen videos of people leeching Kong and had no idea how to do it. If you had no idea how to do it and no one to ask, the first thing you would try is standing as close to Kong as possible and jumping. This was indeed the way I did it for the first x weeks of playing. In fact, I clearly remember not doing it past L2 as the risk/reward was too high. Pressing left or right never occurred to me back then as modern games are not programmed that way. It wasn't until I saw a youtube video (I believe of Wiebe) where he spelled it out that I realized you didn't have to stand right next to Kong.
Still to this day it is not spelled out anywhere (at least anywhere that people frequent). When I read Jeff K.'s explanation of why you sometimes don't get 100 points for jumping a barrel everything made sense. It's common knowledge these days, but I guess it's spread more by word of mouth.
-
Still to this day it is not spelled out anywhere (at least anywhere that people frequent). When I read Jeff K.'s explanation of why you sometimes don't get 100 points for jumping a barrel everything made sense. It's common knowledge these days, but I guess it's spread more by word of mouth.
Where did you read this explanation? I assume it has something to do with the sprite detection as to why you miss out on the 100 points.
I'm exactly the same with the leeching next to Kong, it would have never have thought about this on my own, guessing someone back in the day did it by mistake and worked it out.
Same goes for jumping next to the fireball on the spring stage, I think the first I knew of this was when I watched Dean's 1.167M Mame recording, he does so many other little point pressing things that I would have never have worked out in a 100 years.
-
Where did you read this explanation? I assume it has something to do with the sprite detection as to why you miss out on the 100 points.
Take a look at this page, John:
http://www.jeffsromhack.com/products/donkeykong_tech.htm (http://www.jeffsromhack.com/products/donkeykong_tech.htm)
The explanation is under the "More Reasons why you're not getting your points!!!!" heading.
-
Here is Steve's book (http://chris.psaros.com/crap/book_vmg_donkey_kong.pdf), for Jon or anyone interested.
It's long out of print, so nobody's losing any sales on this, but I'll remove it if anyone thinks I should.
-
thanks guys, I'll give both of them a read now.
-
I also forgot. Not that it's really useful past 1-1 but the double barrel jump on the 6th girder when you climb up the far right ladder and then move I believe about 4 paces to the left for lack of a better way of explaining it. You can run with a barrel jump and then jump towards that same barrel getting the 200 for that one barrel. Also has anyone done a straight jump on the top hammer getting a 100 for the jump and the barrel smash. I have once or twice. I have gotten the running with the barrel jump and smash a bunch of times but the vertical jump for me is rare.
-
Oh wow...
-You can leech barrels rolling down a ladder *without* having to hold left or right (you just have to be super close, kinda like how you can also leech kong without using the joystick)
Haha, Mitch mentioned it weeks ago in this very thread...
Shows how closely I pay attention!
-
Haha, Chris. No worries. ;)
Another, 'what took you so long' could be the leeching of a barrel twice in a row -either 1) by leeching it once while it travels down a ladder (can be done from either side of the ladder), then once right away as it rolls away on the girder, 2) simply two back jumps on the same girder near the end of a girder, with the first one a little early so that you are still close to the barrel for the second jump just as it rolls off the edge, or 3) right as a barrel rolls off the girder above you, once while it is in the air, then another immediately once you land (you can actually have your second jump be a standing jump if you time it well). And, of course, there's always Jeff's triple jump which incorporates both options 1 and 2 to get 3 leeches of the same barrel.
-
cheers Chris, some funny stuff in there all right, i spent 15 mins trying to survive a falling fireball smash on the rivets but no doubt its BS...
the illustrations are cool tho, especially bigfoot kong :D
8)
-
Here is Steve's book (http://chris.psaros.com/crap/book_vmg_donkey_kong.pdf), for Jon or anyone interested.
It's long out of print, so nobody's losing any sales on this, but I'll remove it if anyone thinks I should.
Hey Chris, any significance to the naming of the subdirectory where Steve's book is located?
Or is "crap" simply another term for "miscellaneous"? ;)
-
Haha, Fast Eddie, I contacted Steve Sanders about his DK book (for legal help on Vince and my manual) and the pictures were the thing he most hated. He said he had really well-drawn, precise pictures he had made himself that the publisher rejected and just replaced with crappy pictures of their own. He seemed like he was still quite bitter about it all.
-
i love the total 'wrongness' of them...
in O and V jumpman looks like hes doing the nazi goosestep!
8)
-
Oh wow...
-You can leech barrels rolling down a ladder *without* having to hold left or right (you just have to be super close, kinda like how you can also leech kong without using the joystick)
Haha, Mitch mentioned it weeks ago in this very thread...
Shows how closely I pay attention!
Hey Chris (or perhaps I should say "Sir Chris")
Congratulations on the "Elite Member" status! I'm assuming it kicked in at 250 posts.
So where do you go from here? Does 500 posts get you "Grand Poobah" member status, and the coveted "Elevator Spring" icon?
Mitch should be joining you in a few days. I'm still more than 80 posts away, but I'd really like to ditch the Firefox icon (my least favorite DK enemy) in favor of the Conveyor Pie. Since the majority of my posts are devoid of any insightful game analysis, maybe I should scour the forum and tack on a few meaningless "LOL" replies to anything I find even mildly amusing. :)
-
It was pretty sweet to get pied! I didn't know that was going to happen.
"Crap" is indeed just a miscellaneous folder where I put stuff.
Steve's book is riddled with problems, but I would never call it crap. It was 1982 (a lot less was known about the game), the book was rushed, and he was just a kid. He did his best!
-
It was pretty sweet to get pied! I didn't know that was going to happen.
"Crap" is indeed just a miscellaneous folder where I put stuff.
Steve's book is riddled with problems, but I would never call it crap. It was 1982 (a lot less was known about the game), the book was rushed, and he was just a kid. He did his best!
Yeah, no disrespect to Steve intended. I just had to smile when I saw the URL.
I haven't had a chance to read the book in its entirety, but I did glance at a few random pages here and there. I came across one section where he attempts to list all of the possible ways to die. I decided to put one of his claims to the test. Sure enough, if you jump straight up while on the down elevator, you will not survive. Level 15 of a game at 1.06m pace probably wasn't the best time to conduct that particular experiment. But hey, science marches on, so what can you do? ::)
-
I noticed something peculiar on the elevators today...
It seems that after jumping off either of the elevators, Jumpman needs a brief moment to refresh before he can jump or move again. The delay is small, but significant in that it doesn't present itself anywhere else in the game.
The cause of this lag may have something to do with Jumpman falling further during elevator disembarking than what is common with normal jumping, though the lag will present itself no matter how straight across an elevator is disembarked, and does not present itself when boarding elevators. In other words, the only place in the game this lag can be seen is on one of the eight potential elevator disembarking platforms. You might think the lag is only seen here because there are not opportunities to fall any significant distance on the other levels, but as I said, the lag doesn't occur when boarding elevators, only after jumping off them. The only way to circumvent the elevator disembarking lag is to walk off the elevators.
Weird.
-
I noticed something peculiar on the elevators today...
It seems that after jumping off either of the elevators, Jumpman needs a brief moment to refresh before he can jump or move again. The delay is small, but significant in that it doesn't present itself anywhere else in the game.
The cause of this lag may have something to do with Jumpman falling further during elevator disembarking than what is common with normal jumping, though the lag will present itself no matter how straight across an elevator is disembarked, and does not present itself when boarding elevators. In other words, the only place in the game this lag can be seen is on one of the eight potential elevator disembarking platforms. You might think the lag is only seen here because there are not opportunities to fall any significant distance on the other levels, but as I said, the lag doesn't occur when boarding elevators, only after jumping off them. The only way to circumvent the elevator disembarking lag is to walk off the elevators.
Weird.
Well, that explains some of my recent deaths. A few times I got real bold going up the first elevator and attempt to beat the fireball going up the left ladder. A few times it was so close that right after my jump I have enough room to execute a second jump to land over the right ladder (which would save me from the fireball and give me time to jump again to the 2nd elevator), but both times I tried it the second jump didn't execute and of course I die by the fireball.
I also have what I call "mis-fires" sometimes in two spot on the barrel boards, right below Kong on 5th girder, and right below Kong on 3rd girder (but they are pretty rare). Really gets me during fast back-jump->striaght-jump of 2 barrels. When it happens its frustrating and I end up conceding that I probably just hit the button too early, but when you've been playing the game this long at this level, executing jumps are second nature, so you really get confused about that second jump not registering some time.
I do like that you pointed that out on the elevator, I doubt I'm going to attempt that quick double jump to beat the fireball anymore.
-
Using frame advance I verified the elevator exiting lag to be 8 frames or approximately 130 microseconds. Long enough to legitimately hit jump and have nothing happen.
The lag is associated with an extended landing animation which only triggers after exiting an elevator.
-
That's interesting.
And on a normal jump, how much "frames" do you need to wait before being able to execute another jump? I might think it takes 3-4 frames when you land before being able to jump a 2nd time. So jump on/off the elevator would take 2x more time before being able to jump again?
That definitely sounds legit. When I think about it, I always wait a little bit more before jumping off the elevator, like if I unconsciously knew that it took more frames before being able to jump again.
-
Yeah i've noticed this when playing. I think its the same "tailbone" animation you can do on the final rivet. Have to look again. I just knew it would take a split second or so to jump again so don't jump to late or ill miss the platform.
-
And on a normal jump, how much "frames" do you need to wait before being able to execute another jump? I might think it takes 3-4 frames when you land before being able to jump a 2nd time. So jump on/off the elevator would take 2x more time before being able to jump again?
The landing animation triggered from jumping off the elevators is 11 or 12 frames, while the landing animation for every other jump is 4 frames. A difference of 7 or 8 frames.
Sorry, I was definitely unclear in my phrasing.
-
Here are a couple other tricks I thought of:
-You can leech barrels rolling down a ladder *without* having to hold left or right (you just have to be super close, kinda like how you can also leech kong without using the joystick)
-It's tough to describe, but you can actually 'hide' between the base of the the inside-top-right ladder and the rivet hole from a fireball that is descending the ladder; then, as it first heads to the left, you have a chance to quick run up the ladder to clear the last rivet (assuming the top right rivet is the only one left). I had to use this once because I didn't wanna risk jumping across the rivet hole and landing on a fireball that was over there, and I didn't have time left to retreat to the left if the fireball came down. When I discovered this I was amazed.
I had to read that second trick 3 or 4 times, but I think I know what you mean, Mitch. I tried to set it up on Level 1-2 just a few moments ago. I didn't succeed, but my 3-story plunge through the rivet gap earned me an average score of 9.85 from the international judges. :)
On my second attempt, the firefox reached across the gap and tasered me. Important safety tip: don't position yourself for this move while the fire object is on the same girder.
My third attempt also ended in death, this time by the firefox descending the ladder. The trick seems to require "pixel perfect positioning" (or "PPP", if inducted into the DK Acronyms thread at a future date).
Here you go, Scott; way easier to replicate than to describe! ;D :
http://www.twitch.tv/marinomitch13/c/2818402 (http://www.twitch.tv/marinomitch13/c/2818402)
-
Yea, I felt foolish for not recognizing how the fireballs behave in D2K
There were several things in both DK and D2K that made me facepalm when I finally got around to noticing them.
This thread is about those things.
Here are a few of my examples:
I had actually kill-screened the game before I even became conscious of the fact that you could vertical-jump two adjacent barrels. It seems like a rookie fundamental but it was one of many things that a player can go far and get away with not knowing, and I did. Somewhere far back in my learning I had decided that you always had to forward-jump barrel combos unless their pixels overlapped by a third or more, and just never questioned it again.
Even after seeing players do it, I would quickly forget about it, not realizing how important it really was, and how many lives I would save once I finally started recognizing/putting it into practice.
I actually STILL struggle with it. I have to remind myself constantly that this or that combo is safe to vertical-jump. One time Hank was watching me stream, I was at million-plus pace, I lost a last man on a needless forward-jump, and he said "why didn't you just vertical jump?" I didn't have a good answer.
A couple other things that took me longer than they should have:
- That the conveyor switches directions when Kong hits the edge
- That you can't die from a timeout while in the air (thanks Ben!)
- Mentioned in another thread: that after L2 in D2K, DK doesn't throw any blue barrels except the first
I'll see if I can think of more. What are your "I can't believe I didn't notice that before"s?
How about when jumping 3 or more barrels you only get 500pts awarded to your score rather than the 800 pts that the on screen point value implies.