Donkey Kong Forum
General Donkey Kong Discussion => The Kong Off => Topic started by: WCopeland on October 06, 2015, 05:35:14 pm
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Hi everyone. Before we went our separate ways in Banning, CA yesterday, Robbie Lakeman, Richie Knucklez, and I sat down to discuss Kong Off 5. Robbie and I were asked to share publicly most of the details of the lengthy conversation, so I am formalizing everything that was discussed right here.
When and Where?
Barring something unforeseeable, Kong Off 5 will be held at ReplayFX (David L. Lawrence Convention Center @ Pittsburgh, PA) once again. ReplayFX 2016 is being held on July 28, 2016 - July 31, 2016.
Format
KO5's format will mirror KO4's. The format for KO5 will be the format for every Kong Off going forward. While I don't have exact time spans, we can assume this will mean two days of score competition followed by a final bracket. I do have confirmed the final bracket will consist of the top eight players from the scoring competition. The bracket will not be incorrectly drawn this time around. 1st will play 8th, 2nd will play 7th, etc, until a winner is crowned. All matches will be single-elimination sudden death: one credit, no restarts.
Qualification Details
Twelve machines will be reserved for DKF Top 12, Arcade platform. Before you take out your pitchforks, there are no players that this platform regulation would currently "filter out".
The deadline to make it into the Arcade Top 12 is still forthcoming (if there is one). If a player were to achieve a 1.1m+ MAME score and be filtered out of the top 12 player pool due to platform regulation, Richie will reach out to that player and see what can possibilities can be made about their qualification. However, if you are not currently in the arcade top 12 and don't want to deal with this hassle and wish to have a dedicated machine at KO5, it is strongly encouraged you break into the top 12 using an arcade cabinet.
Each player in the top 12 will have a dedicated personal cabinet at KO5. If a player from the top 12 decides not to attend, the next player in line gets their cabinet (eg -- if one of the top 12 decides not to go, #13 gets their cab). Details on how remaining machines will be allocated is forthcoming.
Currently Qualified Players (as of February 17, 2016)
This thread will be kept up-to-date with the players that are currently allocated dedicated cabs at the KO5 event. If a player drops, next in line will take their place.
(http://i.imgur.com/a3exUBK.png)
DKO First Place Seed
Mick Winzeler - 1,035,400 (DKO#4)
Seeding begins from DKO#3. Current DKO standings can be found here (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Amtnpy63Y37jdDRaYjFLX1puTElyb2Z5RnpINTVXUGc#gid=0).
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I am interested to see what players come out of the woodwork for the qualifiers ... <popcorn>
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One cabinet will go to the #1 seed in Eric's Donkey Kong Online Open tournaments that have happened since KO4. Remove the arcade top 12 from the aggregate list and you have the #1 seed. The seeded player will get a cab even if their score was done on MAME.
Do you mean this season of DKOs, which actually started before KO4?
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Only DKOs post-KO4. Wasn't your score done during an event after KO4?
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DKO #3 was the fist post-KO4 DKO.
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Oops - this has now been fixed. Thanks for letting me know.
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- One cabinet will be available for walk-ups to compete on. There will be a fee to play on this cabinet (fee not yet set in stone).
OMG ... YES! 'I just qualified for KO5!' tears <Allen> lit
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Until KO5, there will be several regional qualifiers. Only one of these is 100% set in stone, and updates will be posted as more are officially confirmed, however they are and could include:
- Free Play Florida (not confirmed, November 2015 -- Orlando, FL)
- Kong Off 4.5 (confirmed, January 2016 -- Banning, CA)
- MAGFest 2016 (not confirmed, February 2016 -- National Harbor, MD)
- Kong Klash 7 (not confirmed... I will talk to Richie about this one, May 2016 -- Sherwood, AR)
- Galloping Ghost Arcade Qualifier (not confirmed but mentioned possible by Richie, date unknown -- Chicago, IL)
- The Place Retro Arcade Qualifier (not confirmed but mentioned possible by Richie, date unknown -- Cincinnati, OH)
Are there any plans on expanding this potential list for regional qualifiers, or reaching out in order to make other locations aware of the two machines up for grabs? Also, how are these scores going to be verified? A designated "ref" local to the area?
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I like almost everything about all of this, except the "fee" to play on the walk-up cab.
This just seems weird, and kind of tacky somehow.
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At first I was opposed to it, but then I realized it was a deterrent to keep someone from hogging the machine the entire event and thus dodging the qualifier system altogether (and devaluing everyone who qualified's hard work). For that purpose, I think it's effective.
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It would be nice to see a qualifier at FunSpot...right Robbie?? #dontforgetyourroots :D
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there will only be sixteen machines at KO5
Why was this decision made? Is there a competition related reason to reduce the number of machines going forward or is this more of a business decision related to supply and demand of building and then selling the machines?
From a competition standpoint, it seems to me that trying to grow every year would make more sense -- especially since the number of highly competitive players within the community continues to grow. Qualifying into the Top 8 finals bracket out of a competition of 12 or 13 players is somewhat problematic imo -- for a finals bracket of this size I think that a competition between 20 to 24 players would make more sense.
Twelve of these machines will be reserved for DKF Top 12, Arcade platform.
In my opinion, this is repeating old mistakes that should have been learned from by now. On a personal level I know that this will almost certainly cause me to become unqualified for the competition unless I end up taking the "online qualifier" machine -- which it is still unclear to me exactly how that slot will be determined. From a community perspective, I think this hurtful overall as it is a highly restrictive policy in a hobby where we desperately need to be more inclusive. This is the sort of attitude that made highly talented players such as Scott Kessler and Phil Tudose completely quit the "sport", and that is a great shame.
One cabinet will be available for walk-ups to compete on. There will be a fee to play on this cabinet (fee not yet set in stone).
The details of precisely how this will be handled should be rigerously thought out and not left until the last minute or improvised on the fly.
One cabinet will go to the #1 seed in Eric's Donkey Kong Online Open tournaments that have happened since KO4 (DKO#3 and beyond). Remove the arcade top 12 from the aggregate list and you have the #1 seed. The seeded player will get a cab even if their score was done on MAME.
I have not been following very closely how this has been handled, but all of a sudden it has become quite relavent for me so I hope that this can be further explained. How exactly is the aggregate list calculated? Is it simply the single highest scoring submission across all of the online competitions?
To further clarify, this means Billy Mitchell and Steve Wiebe currently do not qualify for cabinets at Kong Off 5.
I am likely in the minority on this, but I still feel that this is a mistake. I really think that these guys should basically have lifetime invitations to all future competitions for a variety of reasons. I don't necessarily know what's happening with these guys behind the scenes and if either of them has expressed that they might not be interested in attending any longer or not, but I think that if they want to compete they should be invited -- call it a "Former Arcade WR Holder Exemption" or something (which, incidentally, would include Tim Sczerby, which I personally feel would be a great thing).
I know that in recent competitions, Billy seems to be embracing the "MC" role, and Steve seemed to enjoy providing live commentary, and if they expressed that they wanted to withdraw from competing in favor of contributing in roles like this I think that would be an interesting development, but there is no doubt that their presence at these events is valuable.
As for event planning, I think that starting immediately, anything and everything that can be done to plan for improved live streaming of the event (and marketing such coverage in advance) should be a major focus.
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The reduction of cabinets that are availible is also a big suprise to me. In this year alone, many new players have come out of nowhere, showing great potential.
Additionally, despite being an arcade exclusive player, I find the "throwing out" of mame scores to be an extreme step in the wrong direction, even if it doesn't affect any current top 12 players...
I am mostly happy that that these things are being discussed now, instead of a few months before the event
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As for event planning, I think that starting immediately, anything and everything that can be done to plan for improved live streaming of the event (and marketing such coverage in advance) should be a major focus.
Direct feed, anyone? ;D
I can throw my hat into the ring, donating my time and expertise toward helping making direct feed streams a reality at these events, if there's any interest.
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there will only be sixteen machines at KO5
Why was this decision made? Is there a competition related reason to reduce the number of machines going forward or is this more of a business decision related to supply and demand of building and then selling the machines?
I believe the motivation for this decision was the fact that Richie was under a great deal of stress to get all the cabinets in working order -- both in terms of time and money. Not all the cabs at KO4 were in the best condition (though it may not have been immediately obvious, many of them did not survive later stress tests after the event -- at least one cab died during the event itself).
I can't speak for Richie, but I think the angle he wants is rather than have 24+ "good" machines, he can have 16 "great" machines.
Twelve of these machines will be reserved for DKF Top 12, Arcade platform.
In my opinion, this is repeating old mistakes that should have been learned from by now. On a personal level I know that this will almost certainly cause me to become unqualified for the competition unless I end up taking the "online qualifier" machine
This is false. If you were bumped out of the arcade top 12, you would immediately become the #1 DKO seed with your 1.17 DKO3 score.
One cabinet will go to the #1 seed in Eric's Donkey Kong Online Open tournaments that have happened since KO4 (DKO#3 and beyond). Remove the arcade top 12 from the aggregate list and you have the #1 seed. The seeded player will get a cab even if their score was done on MAME.
I have not been following very closely how this has been handled, but all of a sudden it has become quite relavent for me so I hope that this can be further explained. How exactly is the aggregate list calculated? Is it simply the single highest scoring submission across all of the online competitions?
Aggregate beginning at DKO#3 (the most recent of Eric's tournaments). Again, if you were bumped out of Arcade Top 12, you would immediately be the #1 seed, and I highly doubt any contenders are going to put up a score in an online open higher than a 1.17m.
In the event you were somehow miraculously knocked out, you have an open invitation to come qualify on my cabinet -- I'm only about 1.5hr from you.
To further clarify, this means Billy Mitchell and Steve Wiebe currently do not qualify for cabinets at Kong Off 5.
I am likely in the minority on this, but I still feel that this is a mistake.
There is some reading in-between-the-lines that can be done here. Realistically, it is extremely likely at least one player from the current Arcade Top 12 decides not to come to the event. In that circumstance, next in line would be Corey Chambers. Assuming Corey doesn't go (and I have a hunch he wouldn't), Steve Wiebe would be next in line.
Also, if Wiebe or Billy still failed to qualify, this doesn't guarantee Richie wouldn't have them there anyway as personalities. This has been discussed as well.
As for event planning, I think that starting immediately, anything and everything that can be done to plan for improved live streaming of the event (and marketing such coverage in advance) should be a major focus.
Discussions are happening between Richie and Jace Hall about event broadcasting. The biggest concern is bandwidth in the convention center. I do know, however, that KO5 will be a center-stage event this time around, whereas KO4 was sort of the red-headed step-child of the event. This guarantees Richie more resources to pull off better internet exposure and live coverage.
I find the "throwing out" of mame scores to be an extreme step in the wrong direction, even if it doesn't affect any current top 12 players...
I agree with you and Dean that the combined Arcade+MAME scoreboard should be used, however Richie has stated this is an Arcade-platform event. I did express there would be disappointment/resentment over the decision, which is why he said if any player would be excluded due to this rule, he would reach out to them personally and see what steps could be taken to ensure they could be included.
However, to add to this, there is not a single player that would be excluded by this rule, and I can't think of a single player who would fall out of inclusion by it either (such as Dean and Willms). Tudose has already expressed absolutely no interest in playing. The only player I can even think of who might be impacted by this by summer of 2016 is Mr. X, who based on his comments I've seen on Tim Sczerby's channel would be very hypocritical to qualify using MAME. Otherwise, I find it very difficult to believe there's a 1.1m+ capable MAME player out there we've never heard of, or there will be by summer of next year.
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Wes, thanks for some of that clarification. I definitely appreciate the work that you and Robbie have done to collaborate with Richie on these matters so that player input is heard and considered well in advance of the event.
There is some reading in-between-the-lines that can be done here. Realistically, it is extremely likely at least one player from the current Arcade Top 12 decides not to come to the event. In that circumstance, next in line would be Corey Chambers. Assuming Corey doesn't go (and I have a hunch he wouldn't), Steve Wiebe would be next in line.
However, to add to this, there is not a single player that would be excluded by this rule, and I can't think of a single player who would fall out of inclusion by it either (such as Dean and Willms).
I'm a bit surprised by the lack of forsight on this -- the event is nearly a year away and current interest and level of talent is stronger than ever. I would not be surprised at all if the 12th place ("overall") score is 1.12M points or higher by next summer. In fact, unless some of these guys quit playing, I fully expect all 6 of the current 7th - 12th place "arcade" scores to raise to at least that level (assuming at least some access to a machine), and that doesn't even factor in people like Ethan, Dan, Adam and several other "newer" players who are actively pursuing 1.1M and beyond, including some who may only be playing on MAME. Assuming Steve and Billy do not raise their own scores, they could easily be out of the Top 20 before the KO5 imo.
I guess it just seems like there is a little bit of "hoping" that things will play out a certain way -- like, let's impose a rule that doesn't currently change anything and hopefully it won't end up being an issue -- and I just hope that everyone involved fully understands some of the potential outcomes.
That brings me to another point, which I think has been assumed but is not spelled out anywhere. Has it been agreed that the rankings will be based on DKF tracking of the arcade platform? Or will another scoreboard (such as TG) be used?
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You make a good point Dean, and it's very likely I'll be eating those words at some point.
The DKF scoreboard is what will be used, though TG submissions are mirrored on DKF (unless that has changed recently?).
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I guess I'm in favor of less machines. That is one thing that changed big from KO1-KO4, being one of the qualifiers makes it special and more machines dilute that. However, I know that leaves a big portion of people out that love DK and love these shows and want to play.
If the format stays the same, I would just ask if a little more prize weight can be given to the high score competition. Last time the bracket prize was heavily weighted 8 to 1 to the high score competition. And we all know DK has always been about the highest score.
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I agree -- would love to not see such top-heavy prizes. Unfortunately, no word yet on prize allocations (probably a bit too early).
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After speaking with Richie Knucklez and Daniel Solis, owner of Z82 Retrocade, Kong Klash 7 is confirmed as a KO5 qualifier event in May 2016.
(http://i.imgur.com/7AcCTvi.jpg)
Z82 Retrocade is located in Sherwood, Arkansas (a suburb of Little Rock). Sherwood is a 5hr drive from Dallas, 5hrs from Oklahoma City, 2hrs from Memphis,
https://www.facebook.com/Z82-Retrocade-329341593840466/timeline/ (https://www.facebook.com/Z82-Retrocade-329341593840466/timeline/)
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When I am at GGA at the end of this month, I will tell the owner about the qualifiers and the plans for KO5.
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After speaking with Richie Knucklez and Daniel Solis, owner of Z82 Retrocade, Kong Klash 7 is confirmed as a KO5 qualifier event in May 2016.
(http://i.imgur.com/7AcCTvi.jpg)
Z82 Retrocade is located in Sherwood, Arkansas (a suburb of Little Rock). Sherwood is a 5hr drive from Dallas, 5hrs from Oklahoma City, 2hrs from Memphis,
https://www.facebook.com/Z82-Retrocade-329341593840466/timeline/ (https://www.facebook.com/Z82-Retrocade-329341593840466/timeline/)
Dan Solis loves DK and takes pride in his machines and players. The Kong Klash 6 on November 8th is an excellent opportunity to test the water before playing the qualifier at Kong Klash 7 in May. Wes, Jon McCourt, Andrew Garrett and many others can speak for what a 1st class arcade the Z82 Retrocade is. If you want to be treated like a King of Kong, then make the trip!
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Each player in the top 12 will have a dedicated personal cabinet at KO5. If a player from the top 12 decides not to attend, the next player in line gets their cabinet (eg -- if one of the top 12 decides not to go, #13 gets their cab). The four remaining machines will be split up as follows:
- One cabinet will be available for walk-ups to compete on. There will be a fee to play on this cabinet (fee not yet set in stone).
- One cabinet will go to the #1 seed in Eric's Donkey Kong Online Open tournaments that have happened since KO4 (DKO#3 and beyond). Remove the arcade top 12 from the aggregate list and you have the #1 seed. The seeded player will get a cab even if their score was done on MAME.
- Two cabinets will go to players who participate and qualify through regional qualifiers.
Am I reading this correctly that the order of qualifications is:
1. Top 12
2. DKOs
3. Regional Qualifiers
So remove Top12 and DKO winner to determine regional qualifier?
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Yes.
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Will there be an Allen-off at the KO5? <Allen>
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I agree with Dean. Billy and Steve should have machines forever. I think they are still the main draw, but shouldn't take machines from top 12. Give them celebrity machines separate from top 12.
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ReplayFX 2016 will be held July 28, 2016 - July 31, 2016, it is safe to assume that these are the dates KO5 will also fall on. That is 9 months from now, so if you are not yet qualified, that's how long you have to get there :)
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The list of currently qualified players from the top 12 pool has been updated.
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When I am at GGA at the end of this month, I will tell the owner about the qualifiers and the plans for KO5.
I see that the Galloping Ghost is still listed as unconfirmed as a location for a Kong Off 5 qualifier event. Did they have anything to say about it?
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When I am at GGA at the end of this month, I will tell the owner about the qualifiers and the plans for KO5.
I see that the Galloping Ghost is still listed as unconfirmed as a location for a Kong Off 5 qualifier event. Did they have anything to say about it?
I am thinking this is a "no" for now. They aren't exactly prepared for such an event due to only having 1 dk machine, and I am unsure whether they have a pcb with correct roms in the back.
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I am thinking this is a "no" for now. They aren't exactly prepared for such an event due to only having 1 dk machine, and I am unsure whether they have a pcb with correct roms in the back.
So, no interest at all then? If lack of DK machines were a concern, I am certain people local to the area (especially players interested in competing) would be happy to bring their machines to the event.
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I am thinking this is a "no" for now. They aren't exactly prepared for such an event due to only having 1 dk machine, and I am unsure whether they have a pcb with correct roms in the back.
So, no interest at all then? If lack of DK machines were a concern, I am certain people local to the area (especially players interested in competing) would be happy to bring their machines to the event.
I will send further questions to Doc, the owner, tomorrow about this issue. I am sure something could be planned.
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Ultimately the decision is Richie's, and I haven't heard anything from Richie about the qualifiers since TGEF.
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1st Kong Off 5 regional qualifier (I presume, from reading a facebook post) at Arcade Expo in Banning, CA. January 15-17, 2016.
http://www.arcadeexpo.com/schedule/ (http://www.arcadeexpo.com/schedule/)
"Kong Off 4.5 with Richie Knucklez
This three-day Donkey Kong tournament is hosted by Richie Knucklez, and players will qualify to be seeded into a head-to-head single-elimination bracket to duke it out on championship Sunday."
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reading all of those makes me think of a Kong Off 6 is more in my future .. Maybe I could have a score good enough by then to make the event .
I think if I went to the Donkey Kong off 5 I would be standing there watching someone playing DK .
I would love to see an Allen Off at a Kong Off Event .. but I guess I missed the chance of that at KO2 &KO3 ..
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No mate you would be playing a dk cab in a wild card.. one day if it could be arranged me my kids and you would be there ..lit.. congrats on the allen off sir.. <Allen> <Allen>
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TY Allen <Allen> The dream would be in the top 12 :)
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TY Allen <Allen> The dream would be in the top 12 :)
Go sir!
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With The Kong Off 4.5 only three days away, I was wondering if anyone had any information about who is participating in the competition.
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With The Kong Off 4.5 only three days away, I was wondering if anyone had any information about who is participating in the competition.
As far as I know, Wes is the only person from the forum attending.
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With The Kong Off 4.5 only three days away, I was wondering if anyone had any information about who is participating in the competition.
As far as I know, Wes is the only person from the forum attending.
Unfortunately, I'll be moving during those days and won't be able to attend.
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With The Kong Off 4.5 only three days away, I was wondering if anyone had any information about who is participating in the competition.
As far as I know, Wes is the only person from the forum attending.
Unfortunately, I'll be moving during those days and won't be able to attend.
In that case, it is unlikely that any seasoned players are attending the event.
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So is anyone going?
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lol
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:)
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Well I will be there on Saturday. If the score is crazy low, I may just decide to play, and win the event with a 2014 era Staal 300k in points. <Allen>
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In that case, it is unlikely that any seasoned players are attending the event.
Alright, seasoned players aside, I wonder if at some point there will a list posted anywhere of the players who are participating in this Kong Off 5 qualifier?
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I wonder if it's possible <Billy> or <Wiebe> may use this as an opportunity to qualify?
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I wonder if it's possible <Billy> or <Wiebe> may use this as an opportunity to qualify?
Will there be private rooms at the venue? Kappa
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At this point, it looks like the only qualifiers will be this KO 4.5 and the Z82 qualifier...
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Did anyone happen to hear who won the Kong Off 4.5? Congrats to that person. :)
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Did anyone happen to hear who won the Kong Off 4.5? Congrats to that person. :)
I was there in Banning. From the looks of it there wasn't enough people to show up, and so there was talk of calling off the contest. Not sure that was what happened because I didn't attend on Sunday.
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Did anyone happen to hear who won the Kong Off 4.5? Congrats to that person. :)
I was there in Banning. From the looks of it there wasn't enough people to show up, and so there was talk of calling off the contest. Not sure that was what happened because I didn't attend on Sunday.
We played. I didn't see Richie much Sunday. I overheard they called it off, but Richie/nobody never told me what happened. I just pressed for a huge game and it didn't happen. I just assumed "it didn't count" or whatever on Sunday, but just played anyway to represent Donkey Kong and try my best to show the crowd how great a thing high-level Donkey Kong can be. (Relax, I said I tried.) Billy rocked it, Ken House threw up some scores but mostly hung out, and Eric played a couple games and was pushing for a big score too. Richie and Ken had their kill screen challenge going. I only saw one game, not sure if they played more.
And Richie brought in some great custom Donkey Kongs. I liked the color scheme and the art. At first glance online I wasn't sure about the black cab with black molding. But they looked great in person. Played great. And really had that tournament cabinet look with no coin door and a credit button. A row of them would look sick. Richie always rocks that shit.
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MAGFest 2016 starts tomorrow, so I guess that can be removed as a potential qualifier location.
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I thought there was one qualifying spot coming from the DKOs.
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Dan Solis from Z82 Retrocade in Arkansas is rumored to announce his qualifier date this weekend...
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Briefly chatted with Richie today on what's going on w/ qualifiers.
Until any new info comes up, assume things will work like KO4: dedicated machines for the top 12 HSL, with wildcard machines available. Richie has some personal things going on that are dividing his time more than I think he'd like, but I don't know much I can really get into that. It's safe to assume machines seeded from Eric's tournaments will still be available, so one minimum, maybe two of those are up for grabs.
In other words, right now you have two concrete qualification routes for a dedicated cabinet:
#1. Get into the arcade top 12.
The score to beat is Dean Saglio's 1,100,200.
#2. Beat Dan Desjardins' DKO score of 1,059,700.
While there may be a 2nd DKO seed, getting the 1st seed would assure you a cab. We don't know how many cabs beyond the top 12 will be available.
If scenario #1 is met, it should be noted that the DKO score to beat will go from being 1,059,700 to a monolithic 1,177,600 set by Dean Saglio.
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One more thing to add. Last Kong Off there were several players in the top 12 who for various personal reasons decided not to attend the event. If one player drops, the score to beat goes from 1,100,200 to 1,076,000... and so on and so forth:
(http://i.imgur.com/MYyQbci.png)
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In other words, right now you have two concrete qualification routes for a dedicated cabinet:
#1. Get into the arcade top 12.
The score to beat is Dean Saglio's 1,100,200.
#2. Beat Dan Desjardins' DKO score of 1,059,700.
While there may be a 2nd DKO seed, getting the 1st seed would assure you a cab. We don't know how many cabs beyond the top 12 will be available.
I think only the DKO's done after the last Kong off count. So #2 should be Mick Winzeler score of 1,035,400
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Does this mean that the regional qualifiers aren't happening?
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In other words, right now you have two concrete qualification routes for a dedicated cabinet:
#1. Get into the arcade top 12.
The score to beat is Dean Saglio's 1,100,200.
#2. Beat Dan Desjardins' DKO score of 1,059,700.
While there may be a 2nd DKO seed, getting the 1st seed would assure you a cab. We don't know how many cabs beyond the top 12 will be available.
I think only the DKO's done after the last Kong off count. So #2 should be Mick Winzeler score of 1,035,400
That's what I thought as well.
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Sorry guys, I got everything screwed up. Yes Mick, you're currently the #1 DKO seed.
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Four months to go and here are the current standings:
Arcade Top 12
(http://i.imgur.com/Nk8OFdz.png)
DKO #1 Seed
Tim Sczerby - 1,076,700
Should Tim decline his spot, the next in line is Mick Winzeler with 1,036,500.
If Dean gets knocked out of Arcade Top 12, he becomes DKO #1 seed with 1,177,600.
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Four months to go and here are the current standings:
When I click "Show Combined Platforms", nothing happens. Kappa