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Offline andrewg

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #150 on: October 14, 2021, 03:55:26 pm »
Again the question just becomes... who was the one who changed the score and why? It's not a text error so either he did get it at some point or someone tampered with the score.
If anyone has access to that dead forum PLEASE copy paste this for Wayne.  I've tried to register years ago and no new registers are allowed..  hmmm, wonder why..    https://www.classicarcadegaming.com/

I do have an account, but lost the password long ago and the email associated with it is long gone. I'm gonna try and log in though.

EDIT: Yeah, I can't. However negative1 posted your response on the forum btw.

I missed my shot at buying the Pole Position cabinet I was eyeing. Had it still been listed I actually probably would have made the purchase. Oh well. I bought the PS1 version just to mess around with it and the controls have been really finicky given it's not a steering wheel. Regardless I am gonna see if I can figure anything out with this game when I have time.

I have a good eye for this kind of thing so maybe I'll have some info on extra cars or the bonus 10, etc. I'm not super technical, but I wish I could look at the code for the scoring bonus haha. Might give some clue as to what's going on there... I've been searching for some info and have come up short here so far. Anyway, I will be researching some more and with any luck I'll have some answers with this game.

I am thinking I won't be getting any good scores with the PS1 version mostly due to the controls. I need to mess around with it more though.

Regardless of TG or Guinness... At the end of the day the world record is the best performance with proof. TG and even Guinness credibility these days is lacking. I'd love to see a real entity that actually cares about the integrity of their leaderboards.



« Last Edit: October 14, 2021, 04:15:57 pm by andrewg »
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Offline yamnitz

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #151 on: October 14, 2021, 07:39:11 pm »
Again the question just becomes... who was the one who changed the score and why? It's not a text error so either he did get it at some point or someone tampered with the score.
If anyone has access to that dead forum PLEASE copy paste this for Wayne.  I've tried to register years ago and no new registers are allowed..  hmmm, wonder why..    https://www.classicarcadegaming.com/

I do have an account, but lost the password long ago and the email associated with it is long gone. I'm gonna try and log in though.

EDIT: Yeah, I can't. However negative1 posted your response on the forum btw.

I missed my shot at buying the Pole Position cabinet I was eyeing. Had it still been listed I actually probably would have made the purchase. Oh well. I bought the PS1 version just to mess around with it and the controls have been really finicky given it's not a steering wheel. Regardless I am gonna see if I can figure anything out with this game when I have time.

I have a good eye for this kind of thing so maybe I'll have some info on extra cars or the bonus 10, etc. I'm not super technical, but I wish I could look at the code for the scoring bonus haha. Might give some clue as to what's going on there... I've been searching for some info and have come up short here so far. Anyway, I will be researching some more and with any luck I'll have some answers with this game.

I am thinking I won't be getting any good scores with the PS1 version mostly due to the controls. I need to mess around with it more though.

Regardless of TG or Guinness... At the end of the day the world record is the best performance with proof. TG and even Guinness credibility these days is lacking. I'd love to see a real entity that actually cares about the integrity of their leaderboards.

Bummer about the Pole Position machine!  I think you'd really like playing one for an extended period of time.  Is the PS1 game you got Namco museum?  I have that for Gamecube.  It's pretty difficult for me to play Pole Position with a controller, but still fun.  If you find anything interesting in the gameplay I'm all ears!   I've talked with Adam who was developing the fpga pole position clone.  I know nobody believes it, but it's not dead...  can't say it'll happen soon, but as of a week ago he has not given up on it.  Considering he's the guy who cracked the customs, he would be the one to talk to about the code.  I've asked a few simple questions but if/when he gets it done I'm sure the excitement will get him talking about everything he found out.  The most important thing about the code (other than the the possible rng that controls the starting position of the enemy cars) is what changes the position of the enemy cars.  switching lanes and moving forward or back.  Is it truly just speed, or does touching the sides or passing outside/inside change their position.  Right now I believe it's how the cars are stacked going into a corner, some are programmed to change lanes in a corner and either jump ahead or behind cars if they are right next to one.  Getting another car may truly be an example of luck and getting the cars in the correct order right before hairpin on lap 3 or 4.. or not lol.

I read something years ago and can't find it.  somebody was digging through the code of the gmae and found a bunch of "tables".  like if x value happens then y happens.  but like hundreds of options.  I sometimes wonder if the movement of enemy cars is based on the steering wheel position. (there's only so much input on the game, steering wheel, shifter, gas, brake?) The game knows where you are and it could be knowing that by what the steering wheel optic board is reading, and then comparing it to what it was immediately before..  Spin the wheel in test mode and there are 256 individual letter/number combinations.  00 through FF, 0-9 and A-F combined.  That's almost exactly 2 and 1/2 full steering wheel revolutions to cover all input combos.  Just throwing that out there as it would be an easy undetectable way to make the game appear random, even though it isn't. 
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Offline yamnitz

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #152 on: January 05, 2022, 08:31:29 pm »
After a break I'm back playing, bummer when I turned the game on a few weeks ago my high scores were gone.  Just have to get new ones.  Got an all time best 213.65 tonight. Dude that's fast no matter what, but I messed up in lap 1 and twice in lap 2, lap 3 was a disaster, lap 4 was golden.  One of these days I'm gonna put it all together.  Like I told Johnny, no mysterys, I'm gonna take it tick by f'n tick.  25 ticks to go. 

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Offline yamnitz

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #153 on: November 17, 2023, 06:15:17 pm »
It's been a minute but wanted to drop a thanks to everyone that posted in this thread.  Filled up my top scores with 260's lol. You all helped me along the way, appreciate you guys.  Hopefully bigger things to come
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Offline andrewg

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #154 on: November 22, 2023, 03:35:52 pm »
Great stuff as always!!!

Wait but 2:14.00 -> 67,260???


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Offline andrewg

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #155 on: November 22, 2023, 04:03:43 pm »
What are your best times per lap these days? I'm still wondering how possible 212.xx is.


Previous quote from you: "My fastest laps are 1: 55.65. 2: 51.99. 3: 52.03. 4: 52.70."

--------
Let's look at this again:

Dan's Sum of Bests on a per lap basis:
Lap 1: 55.65
Lap 2: 51.99
Lap 3: 52.03
Lap 4: 52.70
----
Dan's Personal Best done in a full race:
Lap 1: 55.79
Lap 2: 52.15
Lap 3: 52.52
Lap 4: 52.70
Race end time = 213.65
----
Now using John's chart from the 1st post in the thread:
55.79 -> 55.65 = 4 frames
52.15 -> 51.99 = 6 frames
52.52 -> 52.03 = 19 frames
52.70 -> 52.70 = 0 frames
Total = 29 frames

213.65 - 29 frames
= 212.96 race end time in theory.

Now, is it possible to run this race? Will the RNG of the cars always cause some deviation which wouldn't allow this to be possible?

This would give you 3 frames to spare or 4 considering 214.00 above gave the extra 200 on the timer. So presumably a 213.00 would give an extra 200?

Would result in 67,360+

---

I still find it a little unreasonable that Twin Galaxies accepted the 67,310 but in theory it's real. I know you've decided it isn't, but I'm not entirely convinced that 67,260 wasn't a mistake. I'm 50/50 on it, but still agree with you and say the contest results are the results.

You have never hit a low 213 however and so there's question in my mind whether something like that could make a difference on the cars passed. Anything could alter it really since we don't fully understand how it works. Though since you've never seen it this pattern in general I could go the other way on it as well. But again, I'll mention the double extra 10pts in a SINGLE race as a possible argument to suggest another car could be passed in theory. We don't understand these things ultimately.


« Last Edit: November 22, 2023, 04:44:51 pm by andrewg »
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Offline yamnitz

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #156 on: November 25, 2023, 07:36:42 am »
I've gotten a little faster. Ran a 51.85 2nd lap and I've gotten 52.67 last lap. Maybe a few hundredths faster on the third.  and yes the 214.00 is the cutoff 214.01 is 200 points less.

I'm really starting to understand how the game works in the main race, certain colored cars behave in certain ways. If I run 2 races the same, some of the cars will always be in the same spot but others won't. I believe the cars have programmed behavior.  Some of the cars, like the yellow ones will be at the same place in race 1 and race 2, but say the white/green one will be in a totally different spot, It's difficult to explain but how you take the turns, how early or late you turn, hitting the sides, and even where you are on the track makes certain cars move different.  And if that isn't enough, the cars that stay the same (yellow) can actually block or stop a moving car (green/white) from moving up to the next group. Which is ideally what you want, when a car "runs away" and joins the next group in front of it, that's 1 less car you will pass at the end of the race.  So either with patterns or how you drive you want the grouping of cars to stay together.  It's easy to notice on a qualifying lap, if you turn a certain way in the hairpin the green car will be on a different side of the track after the turn, but if you turn a different way you can keep it on the same side. This is useful in getting a good pattern for the fastest q lap time.   

To sum up, that's why you can pass different numbers of cars with different finishing times.  If more cars move up to the next group you will pass 138, 139.  If you happen to drive/turn certain ways and have a certain pattern the cars will not (or be prevented) from moving up and you pass 140, 141, 142? with the same time.  And on top of all that there is the RNG that makes even replicating your own race practically impossible.  This game is incredibly complicated, the designers were geniuses!  Getting a 212.99 wouldn't guarantee more cars just like the time I passed 141 cars with a 215.xx time.

To answer your other question, running all the fastest laps should be possible but in my experience if the cars are set up a certain way to give you a super fast 2nd lap, at least some of them move and make the 3rd harder and vice versa. 
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Offline andrewg

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #157 on: November 25, 2023, 06:58:02 pm »
Thanks for the reply. I really like to hear your experience with the game.


Maybe I'm a broken record at this point but the whole mystery with the 1984 tournament+EGM and all irks me when I can't seem to come up with a plausible explanation.

All in all it seems unlikely (or impossible) under what seems to be "normal" for an extra car to be passed. I've competed on and followed a lot of games and it's not unusual for some oddities to pop up for these older games, so I don't think I will ever have a definite opinion on the 67,310 but it seems like and less likely to me as I've learned more about the game.

Without the EGM entry there would be no question and it really raises questions as to why that ever appeared there. Like we've seen with many other 80s scores there are definitely frauds and fakes. I always wanted to believe the Pole Position story to be true. It's a very confusing set of circumstances. And then you have all of them saying that's what the score always was; it's just very fishy for sure.

---
A few thoughts:
Do you let the demo run on your attempts or is that not always the case? You get a more favorable pattern if you start the game later, right? One of Les' quotes seemed to imply that his runs started immediately with the less favorable pattern. Meaning if he really did pass an extra car then it probably would have been on the worse pattern.

The lap times ultimately don't matter, right? So for example, if you waited 5 seconds to start the main race then the lap time wouldn't start until you actually started, but the timer would have started counting down immediately. So you could then run perfect laps, but your end time would read 217 because you waited 5 seconds to start. Assuming you hold gas at the start then the laps are perfect for  knowing your progress I think though.

Once heard a rumor that said if you hold the gas pedal UP then you accelerate faster or get a faster top speed but I think that was probably some calibration issue (and just people imagining it being faster) after toying around with this myself. Just thought I'd mention it haha.

Also always wondered whether the brake could at all be beneficial. I have the upright so I never really had a chance to play around with that except on gamecube version. I just think... you never know, right? And or, if it could help at the end of the race. Just something to consider although likely useless.

And there's still that extra 10 points to consider. That one really interests me. My mind goes to it saving the speed from a previous attempt so maybe like you had 244mph when ending the previous race and that resulted in a faster opening or something? This makes sense to me as to the extra 10 on the main race too. Like it probably is preserving the speed from the qualifier or something. This is obviously just a guess but let's say you got up to 244mph in the qualifier and then the time ran out while playing, the car might not fully stop and so that speed might carry into the next race if only for a moment.

And last thing: Do you know how to get 245mph? I don't know if I've ever seen it on my machine. Does it only happen when finishing a race sometimes? I saw it present on other machines is all.
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Offline andrewg

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #158 on: November 25, 2023, 08:50:46 pm »
OK beyond theory... I am curious about your general attempts these days.

I mean I know you've figured out quite a bit over the years and I'm curious what the best methods are since I want to give this a shot too. I finally have a little time to work on it although very little. I have put in ridiculously few games in for actually owning a machine now but I also have a toddler :D

So anyway I would like to get better and I'd love to know some general tips if you have any. I think you credit up at a specific time for a better pattern? And are you actually touching the yellow lines or do you just get close? I haven't examined your videos that closely on the strategies.

Am I aiming for a specific pattern and is there a way to influence it? I tend to like to figure things out on my own but I've spent a lot of time looking at this game with little success. So since you probably have it mostly solved I'm gonna take the lazy route for once. :)
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Offline yamnitz

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #159 on: November 26, 2023, 08:17:08 am »
Yeah as far as the score from 1984, I choose to believe All the Guinness books throughout the 1980's and the future VGMT's that all had 67,260 as the score to beat. Those were scores from the height of the arcade game craze and everybody looked to Guinness or print publications of the time for the scores to beat.  I agree having it said many years later that Guinness was wrong the whole time has always seemed 'fishy' to me too.

I don't think it's accurate to call it an 'extra car' anymore, the number of cars passed can be any number depending on the starting pattern of enemy cars and how the race is played. Playing over the years and seeing/learning how the game works I think 310 or more could be possible but it simply comes down to the percentages, how many patterns even allow for the cars to remain grouped together.. not many and then playing the game with a beneficial pattern in a way that the enemy cars don't run away, all while going fast enough to get a 214.00 or better. The odds are extremely low, and even if it all comes together, turning just slightly before or after in a turn on the 4th lap could cause 1 car to switch lanes and you go from 141 passed to 140, and you don't even know where you turned wrong or what is even the right way lol.  The game itself reacts to how it's being played, again it's genius. 

During attract mode there are certain points where if you coin up you will get a certain pattern in the q lap most of the time. I've experimented over the years and have not found any advantage to coining up at any particular spot. If you notice the demo is different the 2nd time through, then the 3rd, etc.. The cars are in different spots, your car crashes into them at different spots, I don't know how many times until it repeats the first demo mode pattern but again, I've found no advantage at one spot over another.  That being said I usually just coin up right after a reset, I started doing it because it gave a little better pattern to get a fast qualifying lap, but more so just to save time. Work, family, kids, I have so little time to play as it is and I don't want to sit and wait.  I have found that a key to keeping the cars grouped is trying to get them in the 4 car pattern at the beginning the first time you see the enemy cars, you know the 2x2 pattern.  Then go through or around them and pass them all in the hairpin, that at least gives you the best chance of passing as many cars as possible.  That's why I finish my q laps in the middle of the track, seems to give the 4 car pattern more often than finishing on the right or left of center line.   Do you have the quote that mentions a less favorable pattern?

Correct lap times don't really matter, the master clock, which is the number ticking down at the top is the only thing that matters. All lap times do is show how fast you got around the track that particular lap, they don't add up or anything, the race time at the end is based on how much time is left on the master clock. (or how much time you used)

Any theories about manipulation of the pedal to go faster are urban legends. No advantage at all, and you might damage your pedal cable or pot!

I've been messing around and have tried the brake but it slows you down way too much to be useful on these settings.  For the casual player it could help them play the game, but at this level it's pretty much useless.  Yes I've tried tricks at the end of the race too, braking, upshifting, etc.. and I've never seen anything special.

I don't know exactly what causes the extra 10 points, but I kinda know when I'm going to get it in the qualify lap.  It has to do with the hairpin and sliding through it a certain way as well as the speed you maintain. 10,000 points for a lap right and you get an extra 10 points, The game gives points for distance traveled, you can see the score going up as you go, and if you stopped on the track the points would stop. So basically the car traveled an extra 1/1000 distance over the lap but still started and finished at the same place. I really think it's a bug in Atari's programming and the type of gameplay required to get into the very high score range lends itself to giving the extra 10 more than scores in the lower range.

Getting the game to show 245 is by finishing the q lap at 244 and upshifting right at the finish line. You never actually go 245, but it shows it which is cool.

General tips are just play, you Have to figure out what the car can and can't do. How hard you can turn it in corners without losing grip and skidding, get used to where the enemy cars are, how they move and getting to know if you have enough room to go inside or not.  Coining up at the beginning of the demo just after the car leaves the start and finishing the q lao on the right of center line should give some good patterns to get going.  I remember years ago I would coin up right after a reset and it seemed much more difficult, but now that's all I do. I reset, coin up at the title screen, and finish dead center.  I want the more difficult 4 car pattern if I can get it, but you will crash alot if you do it lol. 

You're not really aiming for a specific pattern, and even if you were there's no sure fire way to get any pattern every time.  My advice is just play, try to finish, then finish without a crash, then start staying inside. Ride the yellow line in turns as much as possible, especially the long turn before the last straight away, you will save time. Oh and don't get to close to enemy cars, that kills your time.  Just watch some of my early videos if you want, and then watch one of my 67,260, you will notice differences in how I play. I never had anyone to watch or learn from at all, no videos after 66,510.. So it's a lot of trial and error on my part, people that come after me will sure have it easier than I had!  Good luck man!  Even after all these years it's still a fantastic and fun game! 


 
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Offline andrewg

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #160 on: November 26, 2023, 04:29:59 pm »
Appreciate the detailed response. Very interesting stuff. I don't know how far I will take this game, but I'd like to at least get a good handle on it.

Once I actually get better I'm sure I'll have more specific questions, but thanks for answering the more general ones. I hope TG hasn't discouraged you at all because you're awesome and have the fastest times which I still say kinda matters more than the scores. Even so you've tied the best *verifiable* score and that's all that matters.

It's hard to take TG seriously as an official entity sometimes. I still respect TG, but I don't think it will ever revive from its reputation of corruption. You can easily say to someone "this TG score might be fake" and they wouldn't second guess it. Like TG is now notorious for having cheated scores. I've said before, if *I* were in charged of TG I would have archived all the old scores as having been done under a different standard because well, THEY WERE. So it seems very unfair to modern players to have to compete against scores that aren't verifiable, don't have video proof, or can't be disproven because it's not always possible (literally it's almost impossible in many cases) to disprove that something didn't happen. The burden of proof should be on the person whose score is in question. Certainly most of the 80s scores are real, but the questionable ones are usually questionable for good reason.

While I certainly respect the 80s players I don't know how they expect modern players to just accept the 80s scores as fact when so many have been proven false, don't follow the same standard or settings, etc. Pole Position seems cut and dry like this is the result of the tournament, but I can somewhat understand the position TG is in. I just think that no one will take them seriously as long as they maintain so many questionable scores. It's a monumental task to fix the leaderboard and it's simply not possible for it to ever be considered "accurate" in my mind.


I kind of LIKE the mystery surrounding so many scores because it's the legends and myths of competitive gaming, but not when you're an active competitor. It feels like a slap in the face to modern players. So like I said, I like the idea of having them grandfathered for what they were and viewable, but not as "official" in the sense that the modern scores are.

----
It was one of the youtube comments I think well just that Les said something like "my score would be higher if I got patterns like yours." I think Les looked at the average MPH and went off of that rather than the scores that were actually being obtained (again I say this in reference to something I came across interviewing Les) so I feel that's the reason he thought that much higher scores might be possible, but realistically the laps can't be much faster than what they were doing in the 80s. The limit for the game is probably 67,520?

More questions:

- Have you gotten the extra 10 in the qualifier more than once now? I might have come across something saying you get it every ~30 races or so? That might have been referencing something else. And your theory is that it has to do with finishing the qualifier quickly maybe? Do you think you need a certain qualifier pattern for it to happen? Same question for the extra 10 on the main race I suppose. Is there ever a time when you haven't gotten the extra 10 when getting a 213? Does it just have to do with maintaining high speeds consistently?


- Is there a pattern that you come across in the main race that just can't get good times? Like is there a pattern you come across and just reset? Or does that happen mid-race? I don't think I entirely followed what you said exactly on this.


- I've watched your race that was a good lap 1, 2, and 4 and I wondered whether you thought that race could have realistically hit something at or close to 212 now that you've seen so many patterns? I mean do you look at that race now and say "oh that was unavoidable beccause of the pattern, etc?"


« Last Edit: November 26, 2023, 04:53:48 pm by andrewg »
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Offline yamnitz

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #161 on: November 30, 2023, 05:27:58 pm »
The extra 10 has to do with 'shortcutting' a tiny bit of the track per lap, so over 1 qualify lap and 4 main race laps it's traveling 1/5000th farther.  I believe it happens in the hairpin when everything suddenly speeds up.  Try playing the game where you never upshift, when you are going at max LOW speed of about 140ish, you seem so slow then when you come to the hairpin everything speeds up for a second.  Weird stuff.  That's why I think you gain just a little distance if you do the hairpin a certain way... that certain way leads to faster times, higher scores and you get the extra 10 more often that way.  Getting it twice like I did just means I got 2/5000th farther, which seems very very unlikely since I've never repeated it. 

so to be clear when I say pattern I only mean the pattern of the 4 enemy cars the very first time you see them in the main race.  The order of the colored cars and where they are on the track.  That is 'The Pattern" After that everything can change depending on going inside or not, hitting the sides or not, skidding or not, and sometimes just by being fast enough that cars usually change lanes but just so happens that another enemy car is there so it doesn't. Having 3 enemy cars on the inside of any turn is bad.  Sometimes you start the game with 3 on the right and 1 on the left, I would consider that a bad pattern. 

Yeah getting a 213.00 would be Incredibly tough. You have to be inside SO much to get the time down, and cars switch lanes during the race, a dozen random helpful things would have to happen on lap 3 and 4, while running  basically a perfect first 2 laps.  Not impossible but..

I am really figuring this game out right now.. hopefully big things coming soon!
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Offline yamnitz

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #162 on: December 26, 2023, 03:46:33 pm »
For the speedrun fans out there, just ran a 213.49 here's the link:
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Offline andrewg

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #163 on: December 26, 2023, 08:22:57 pm »
Congrats! or as we say around here: Kongrats! :D

Very ready for the final chapter.
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Offline dimmu--borgir

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #164 on: December 29, 2023, 04:37:20 am »
I'm so following this. Please go on and beat that record.
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