Author Topic: I decided to an analysis of 100 of my men in Donkey Kong  (Read 19277 times)

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Offline homerwannabee

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I decided to an analysis of 100 of my men in Donkey Kong
« on: February 12, 2013, 06:33:57 pm »
OK, here is the good news.  I am really, really successful at the rivets.  By far in any way you measure I had the most success on this stage.  It seems strange that some people see this as the hardest board.   Sadly the elevator stage is kicking my trash all over the place.  It is by far the worst board for me.  Strange that for the most skilled Donkey Kong players this board is actually the easiest with the top notch players having a 99 percent success rate. 

OK, time for the numbers.

I faced a total 493 boards in these 25 games I played, and passed 393 of them.   That's a success rate of 79.7% per board.  Of course the success rate was much higher in the earlier boards.

I faced a total of 111 elevator stages, and passed a miserable 73 of them.  That's a success rate of 65.7% per board.  What is really sad is most of this success was on the level 2, and 3 boards.

I faced a total of 79 pie factor boards, and passed 63 of them.  That's a success rate of 79.7% per board.  The deaths for the pie factory seemed to happen in bunches though.

I faced a total of 198 barrel boards, and passed 160 of them.  That's a success rate of 80.8% per board.

Lastly I faced a total of 104 rivet boards, and passed 96 of them.  That's a success rate of 92.3% per board.  Why can't all boards be as easy as the rivet board for me?  I swear I would have killscreened this game by now if all I had was nothing but rivet boards for the 116 boards.

There was one glimmer of hope for me.  On the last man I started to figure out how to tracking backwards on the elevator stage without dying.  I did it like 2 times in a row, and than tried to go for it, and still got hit by a spring.  So maybe if I keep plugging things will be better.  At the moment though as you can see, I have legitimate reason to despise the elevator board.  I would have had a much higher score than 319,200 which is my current high at the moment.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2013, 06:07:22 am by homerwannabee »
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Offline marinomitch13

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Re: I decided to an analysis of 100 of my men in Donkey Kong
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2013, 06:44:50 pm »
You're doing well George. Making the jump from 300k to 500k is probably one of the hardest jumps, as it requires really perfecting your gameplay and not dying one of the times you normally would in the tough situations. This is also the place were people finally are forced to become super good at the springs. I would say that for right now you really need to hunker down and perfect your springs more than anything else; practice them until you can do them in your sleep. Spring deaths need to be inexcusable. Next after that would be working on barrels to the same degree. A great player should never die on Springs and almost never on Barrels when they are just running boards.

Keep at it!
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Offline Ohrami

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Re: I decided to an analysis of 100 of my men in Donkey Kong
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 05:33:04 am »
My opinions are very similar to Mitch's in this situation. Which is strange, because my current high score has 3 deaths on the springs... But usually, I never die on them! Just get a save state and try the springs over and over. Also, watch this video.

Donkey Kong Arcade 3rd Elevator Stage Walkthrough
« Last Edit: February 13, 2013, 05:34:40 am by Kyou-kun »
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Offline up2ng

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Re: I decided to an analysis of 100 of my men in Donkey Kong
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 03:33:00 pm »
Good stuff George.  It's a great idea to really take a good look at which areas need improvement and then concentrate on those skills.  Most people would not analyze their results the way you have here and I'd bet that this will lead to more rapid improvement for you than many other players.

One thing I'll say about the rivet screens is that you probably aren't going deep enough into the game yet to see how nasty they are -- if your PR is 319k I'm guessing your "average" game these days is maybe 250k, maybe somewhere around the end of Level 7 or so.  The rivets really don't become a major problem until Level 5, but Level 5 rivets are significantly harder than on previous Levels.  If you are commonly playing games up into the Level 10 - 15 range, you'd begin to see how a couple of your men seem to be "stolen" by a seemingly impossible rivet screen.  It will be interesting to hear if your opinion of this screen changes as your average game goes deeper.

As for the elevators, a lot of these guys in this community will say things that make it seem like they should be easy, which is likely frustrating to hear.  The truth is, these are generally very experienced, kill-screen capable players who are saying this, and they STILL occasionally die here anyways.  The fact is, it takes MONTHS of dedicated play to really become comfortable with this screen in the midst of a full game that is going deep, perhaps with a shot at a PR.  You absolutely SHOULD set up a save state and practice this way for 10 minutes every day for several weeks -- but there is no substitute for having to deal with this screen on the fly during a good run.  I'm confident that most players who have played a serious game every day for a couple of months STILL dread it every time they see the 4 monkeys stacked up, indicating that they will have to deal with yet another elevator screen now.  For me, that feeling lasted a long time for games that were going deep.

However, with your overall cag skills and your posted success rate, I have a feeling that you are doing something slightly wrong and/or just haven't developed proper technique yet.  You could get that success rate just by accident without actually ever retreating.  First (again, with a save state), you should get familiar with how close you can get to the spring that is passing over your head -- most novice players actually get a "poor jump" most of the time because they are timing their approach late enough so that the spring clearly passes over Jumpman's head.  This is a mistake.  A spring can pretty much pass straight through Jumpman's entire head without a death because of how the hit boxes work for these objects -- you pretty much NEED to have some contact with the spring in order to get a good jump. 

The other piece of the technique is spring recognition and responding very quickly with the correct decision.  I have a feeling that different players actually do things slightly differently for spring recognition.  The technique that I used for a long time focused intently on watching precisely where the spring lands within the yellow box to determine how "long" it is.  The trouble is, this is already pretty late in the process and it becomes difficult to make a decision based on this late information.  I have now mostly transitioned to using more of a peripheral vision approach which is geared not so much on where the spring is landing, but rather how it is entering the screen.  A long spring will enter the screen with high "energy" -- an upward arching motion that just looks threatening, whereas the shorter springs just sort of drop into the screen.  This extra millisecond of information makes the decision making much easier, although it's harder to get used to trusting this information since it's more approximate in nature.

Keep us posted on your progress.
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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: I decided to an analysis of 100 of my men in Donkey Kong
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2013, 06:35:58 am »
Another springs tip is, once you are good at getting good jumps to make the climb up the ladder...you really don't need to wait for a long spring...any medium/long-ish spring is ok to go on...so as long as the following spring is not long.

In fact...it's more important to look for the next spring coming out, after you've decided to go...than making sure you go on a long spring.

Reason being, the longer the spring, the higher up that spring will reach on the ladder...making it harder...or even impossible to climb the ladder successfully...even if you get a perfect jump.

If you go on a medium-ish spring, and the next spring is a medium-ish spring...you can even have a crappy jump, and still make it up safely (not too crappy, but a little crappy).

Somewhere in the 'medium' zone of spring classification lies the 'sweet spot'.  What I mean by this is the spring that, as it makes its bouce near the ladder, lands directly in the middle of the bottom of the ladder Jumpman must climb to complete the level.  This is the 'sweet spot spring', because it gives you the absolute most time to climb up the ladder without getting hit...obviously because it poses the least amount of threat due to the fact that it can only kill you if you are at a pretty low vertical position on that ladder.

Understanding that you really don't have to wait for long springs will also save you a lot of points on spring boards...becasue you can go on long or medium springs once you get used to it...which gives you more springs to go on...expediting the process...leaving more on the bonus timer.
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hchien

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Re: I decided to an analysis of 100 of my men in Donkey Kong
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2013, 08:39:00 am »
That's very good analysis George!  I love #'s.  After my first killscreen, I did a statistical/probabability analysis on what your success rate on each board had to be in order for you to have a realistic shot at a killscreen.  Unfortunately it was on TG forums but hopefully it's archived somewhere.  Anyhow I seem to remember you need to AVERAGE about 93-94% survival on each board and about 400K per game to have a realistic shot.  Again, these are averages, not PB.

I've never done this type of analysis on my games, but if I'm running boards, I'd say my survival is:

barrels 99%
conveyers low 90's%
spring 99%
rivets low 90's%

Since barrels account for 1/2 the screens, I'd suggest you work on:

barrel > elevator > pie

Your rivets are already good enough for a killscreen.

I agree with Dean, if you're only playing a few rivet screens per game, it may seem like the easiest, but as you improve your other screens, it will become the hardest.  It's all relative.  Once your barrels and springs are 99%, the conveyers and rivets will account for most of your deaths.  Those boards are more random and out of your control.

Offline Ohrami

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Re: I decided to an analysis of 100 of my men in Donkey Kong
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2013, 09:20:26 am »
Another springs tip is, once you are good at getting good jumps to make the climb up the ladder...you really don't need to wait for a long spring...any medium/long-ish spring is ok to go on...so as long as the following spring is not long.

In fact...it's more important to look for the next spring coming out, after you've decided to go...than making sure you go on a long spring.

Reason being, the longer the spring, the higher up that spring will reach on the ladder...making it harder...or even impossible to climb the ladder successfully...even if you get a perfect jump.

If you go on a medium-ish spring, and the next spring is a medium-ish spring...you can even have a crappy jump, and still make it up safely (not too crappy, but a little crappy).

Somewhere in the 'medium' zone of spring classification lies the 'sweet spot'.  What I mean by this is the spring that, as it makes its bouce near the ladder, lands directly in the middle of the bottom of the ladder Jumpman must climb to complete the level.  This is the 'sweet spot spring', because it gives you the absolute most time to climb up the ladder without getting hit...obviously because it poses the least amount of threat due to the fact that it can only kill you if you are at a pretty low vertical position on that ladder.

Understanding that you really don't have to wait for long springs will also save you a lot of points on spring boards...becasue you can go on long or medium springs once you get used to it...which gives you more springs to go on...expediting the process...leaving more on the bonus timer.

Wow. This was a very useful tip. I just used it to up my score from 434,600 (3 springs deaths) to 505,700 (0 springs deaths) in literally one game (no restarts at all!) without practicing the technique whatsoever. It makes the spring boards MUCH less stressful to do it this way. Thank you.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2013, 09:25:37 am by Kyou-kun »
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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: I decided to an analysis of 100 of my men in Donkey Kong
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2013, 09:43:41 am »
No problem.  Glad it helped!
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Simpsons99

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Re: I decided to an analysis of 100 of my men in Donkey Kong
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2013, 10:46:24 am »
when you guys are doing this you seem to stand at  different spot.

Offline homerwannabee

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Re: I decided to an analysis of 100 of my men in Donkey Kong
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2013, 06:28:53 am »
Well I did another analysis of 100 men.  This time a couple of stats have improved greatly while a couple of others have fallen off a tad bit.  Overall I did better with the 100 men, but ironically enough this go around I did not hit 200,000 points 1 single time, but last time I hit 300,000 points.  OK, here are some now personal highs this time around. 

Last time I reached Level 3-1 in all 25 games.  This time around I reached Level 3-3 in all 25 games.
Last time I reached Level 5 a total of 14 times.  This time around I reached Level 5 17 times.
Last time I reached Level 6 a total of 6 times.  This time around I reached Level 6 7 times.

Of the 520 boards I faced this go around I passed 420 of them.  That's a success rate of 82.0%.  A new record!

I faced a total of 111 Elevator stages, and passed 80 of them.  that's a success rate of 72.0%.  A new record, and a much better improvement from last time of 65.7%(Accidentally miscalculated my numbers last time to 60.3%).  To me this is definitely the most important area I needed to improve on, and despite lacking in a couple of other areas I am happy because I am starting to get this level.

I faced a total of 87 Pie Factory stages, and passed 69 of them.  A success rate of 79.3%.  I am down slightly, but what also needs to be noted is I faced more level 5 Pie Factory boards this time around.

I faced a total of 212 Barrel boards, and passed 174 of them.  A success rate of 82.0%.  This is something I am also up slightly on.  This is the second board I really wanted a better success rate on, and so this is good as well.

Lastly I faced a total of 110 Rivet boards, and passed 97 of them.  A success rate of 88.1%.  I was really disappointed in this total.  I really should have done better than this.  But considering this was my only real disappointment of the 4 boards, I'll take that.
"Perception forged in delusion and refined by pain"

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Offline homerwannabee

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Re: I decided to an analysis of 100 of my men in Donkey Kong
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2013, 06:05:48 pm »
OK, did yet another 100 man/25 game analysis of my game play.  I did much better this time.  I have Dean Saglio to partially thank for this.  His rule of thumb to get to the yellow safe spot on the elevator stage really helped big time.  Did not die once getting to the yellow safe spot.  OK, now for the numbers.

I achieved a new personal high of 341,600. Awesome stuff!

I reached level 10 two times.  New record!
I reached level 9 two times.  New record!
I reached level 8 five times.  New record!
I reached level 7 nine times.  New record!
I reached level 6 18 times.  New record!
I reached level 5 22 times.  New record!

I cleared 598 out of 698 total boards for an 85.6% success rate.  New record!
I cleared 253 out of 396 Barrel boards for an 85.4% success rate.  New record!
I cleared 111 out of 134 Elevator boards for an 82.8% success rate.  New record!
I cleared 94 out of 109 Pie Factory boards for an 86.2% success rate.  New record!
I cleared 131 out of 150 Rivet boards for an 87.3% success rate.  Down mostly because I was going through more level 5 and up boards.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2013, 01:57:46 am by homerwannabee »
"Perception forged in delusion and refined by pain"

-Ross Benzinger

"It's like we are able to play beautiful music out there, but no one can hear the instruments"

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hchien

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Re: I decided to an analysis of 100 of my men in Donkey Kong
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2013, 07:54:59 pm »
I cleared 131 out of 150 rivet boards for an 87.3% success rate.  Down mostly because I was going through more level 5 and up boards.

Yeah this is what Dean and I were saying (I think it was in your other thread).  Beginners will often say rivets are the easiest as they are probably only playing 1 or 2 L5+ rivets.  As you improve your other boards, you will start to play out more rivet boards and you'll see that the rivets (and conveyers) are the hardest.  And it seems like no matter how much you practice them, there are some boards where they will just kill you no matter what you do.  So now that you realize this, I guess you're past the beginner stage!

Offline homerwannabee

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Re: I decided to an analysis of 100 of my men in Donkey Kong
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2013, 02:11:46 am »
I cleared 131 out of 150 rivet boards for an 87.3% success rate.  Down mostly because I was going through more level 5 and up boards.

Yeah this is what Dean and I were saying (I think it was in your other thread).  Beginners will often say rivets are the easiest as they are probably only playing 1 or 2 L5+ rivets.  As you improve your other boards, you will start to play out more rivet boards and you'll see that the rivets (and conveyers) are the hardest.  And it seems like no matter how much you practice them, there are some boards where they will just kill you no matter what you do.  So now that you realize this, I guess you're past the beginner stage!

Well the numbers still say that Rivet overall is easier for me, and then next easiest is now Pie Factory, and next easiest is Barrel boards, and the hardest is still elevator.  Also the Pie Factory I had a lot more success this time around than last time.  The main reason behind that is because I realized that yes, early on it's good to be aggressive on the Conveyor, but once the fireballs decide to jam you up it's best to wait it out until a couple of fireballs make it to the top where they can't hurt you.

As far as beginner goes, my qualification are a bit lower than yours.   I go with the Robert Mruczek line of "The average Donkey Kong player will never pass the 3rd elevator stage".  So once a person passes that I think they are no longer in the beginner phase, but are also not to intermediate level.  I would say the missing level is what we call in tennis as the "Recreational Player".  That is something I have basically been for the past year and a half until probably the last week or so where things are starting to put me finally in the Intermediate level of Donkey Kong.  You know this has inspired me I think I am going to make thread about the different levels.  ;D
"Perception forged in delusion and refined by pain"

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Offline homerwannabee

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Re: I decided to an analysis of 100 of my men in Donkey Kong
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2013, 05:38:21 am »
Well did an analysis of another 100 men, and sadly I took a step backwards this time.  I think my main problem was the game out of the gate I fell on my face with the worst game I have had in a very long time.  I did not make it past Level 2-1  on the first game.  So I had already dug myself a hole.  This time I had no new percentage records, and that was a disappointment.  I also had no new high scores, and no top 10 scores.   I did do one thing very well this time around.


 I only died twice on the 2nd or 3rd elevator in all 25 games I played.  Before I was dying 5 or 6 times, and I realized that this equated to 1 in 4 games or 1 in 5 games playing with 3 men instead of 4 because almost all my deaths on these stages are do to not paying attention, and not do to a lack of skill.  Also I only died 19 times this time around on the elevator boards which is also a record lowest death total for 100 men.  It actually was the 2nd most successful board, which is also a first.  I did not however get a percentage record simply because I faced less elevator boards this time around. OK, here are the horrible numbers this time around.

I passed 446 out of 546 boards for a success rate of 81.6%
I passed 184 out of 231 barrel boards for a success rate of 79.6%
I passed 107 out of 121 rivet boards for a success rate of 88.4%
I passed 84 out of 103 elevator boards for a success rate of 81.5%
I passed 70 out of 90 pie factory boards for a success rate of 77.7%
"Perception forged in delusion and refined by pain"

-Ross Benzinger

"It's like we are able to play beautiful music out there, but no one can hear the instruments"

-Leon Shepard
Member for 11 Years Former DK3 World Record Holder DK Masters - Rank D DK Killscreener IGBY 2014 DKF Team Member CK Killscreener Submit a score for every DK3 track Blogger Twitch Streamer Former DKJR World Record Holder - MAME DKJR Killscreener DK3 Repetitive Blue Screener

Offline Bliss1083

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Re: I decided to an analysis of 100 of my men in Donkey Kong
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2013, 07:16:19 pm »
I was pretty good at the elevators at one time. I just got back into playing donkey kong. You know how they say it's eye hand cordnation. I'd throw in ear cordnation as well when trying to get through the elevator stage. When I'm posted waiting for the long spring and it finally comes out I jet for the ladder but my eyes don't leave the yellow block where the first spring falls because I'm waiting for spring number two to come out now if I get two long springs and I hear I'm climbing the ladder I go back down and reset myself to the safe yellow block. If I get a long spring and then a short spring and I don't hear me climbing the ladder then obviously I didn't go far enough to reach the ladder an I retreat back to the safety zone. If I get my long spring then I hear I'm climbing the ladder and then I see the second springs short I continue on climbing. Sorry probably confusing but donkey kings like that sometimes.
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