Author Topic: No hammer rules change!  (Read 20537 times)

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Offline stella_blue

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Re: No hammer rules change!
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2015, 09:50:19 pm »
It also happened to me last night.  I had 265K (with 1 death) on Level 7-6.  The timer was dangerously low, so I made a suicide run to clear the top right rivet.  While attempting to jump over a fireball, I accidentally grabbed the top hammer.

Marginal disappointment.  A decent score, but not terribly deep into the game.


I thought I had deleted the broadcast but it's still there, so I created a "lowlight" of the game.

This is how a civilized, even-tempered individual reacts to moments of self-inflicted misfortune:

Level 8-6 Rivets & Aftermath

A sharp but understandable "Oh!!!" when it happens, followed by 45 seconds of silence while I kill off my 2 remaining men, and finally 7 minutes of subdued commentary and chat interaction.  Also, a great song playing in the background.

Relax, Chris.  Just having a little fun over here.   :)

« Last Edit: April 26, 2016, 01:21:43 pm by stella_blue »
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Zmick_tricK

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Re: No hammer rules change!
« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2015, 11:06:12 pm »
You have one poll option saying the game is instantly DQ'd and 3 options saying it doesn't. Let's say that 10 people vote for option one and 9 people each vote for the other 3 options, then option 1 still wins even though 27 vs 10 people believe that a hammer grab should not be the immediate and irreparable disposal of the acquired score.

I think a run-off poll structure would make more sense.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 11:20:27 pm by Zmick_tricK »

Offline f_symbols

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Re: No hammer rules change!
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2015, 12:57:48 am »
It also happened to me last night.  I had 265K (with 1 death) on Level 7-6.  The timer was dangerously low, so I made a suicide run to clear the top right rivet.  While attempting to jump over a fireball, I accidentally grabbed the top hammer.

Correction:  265,200 on Level 8-6

The other details are accurate.

gotem
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: No hammer rules change!
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2015, 03:32:23 am »
In this tourney alone, we're already had three accidental grabs (and that's just the ones I'm aware of). So I'd say this is definitely worth hashing out.

And if "Game Over" wins over "DQ" as the community consensus (let's just ignore the other options at this point), I really do think we should consider changing the rule for the DKF HSL.

Ross voiced a concern that rule changes would be unfair to those who played under different rules, but, as far as I'm aware, with this particular change there's nobody who would be retroactively affected (ie, a DQed score that would have otherwise just been "Game Over"ed and submitted). So it's not too late for us to amend the rule without any harm done, and maybe we should, especially if future tourneys are going to go with a "Game Over" rather than "DQ" rule. Jeff's tourneys were (wisely I think) on "Game Over" rules, and I think it would be best if his rules didn't clash with those of the HSL.
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Offline timhett

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Re: No hammer rules change!
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2015, 06:21:01 am »
I voted to keep the rule as is because I feel to retroactively change the rule in any way would be unfair to the players who slaved away under the current ruleset.  Also, I feel that No Hammer is supposed to be harsh, and avoiding the hammer at all costs is part of the challenge in the variant - lessening the penalty for grabbing a hammer would reduce the difficulty.


FWIW from someone who doesn't play much DK, but I thought the no hammer was supposed to be difficult also, and the hammer goes from useful tool and lifesaver to one of the most dangerous obstacles to avoid, not only will it kill you, but it will kill your game, even if you had a good one going. 
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: No hammer rules change!
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2015, 01:49:27 pm »
Sure, it's supposed to be difficult. It's already difficult!

The problem with an accidental hammer-grab ending, or worse, nullifying, your whole game is that there's no logical justification for it, other than strictness for strictness's sake.  You can make the argument that a hammer-grab invalidates continuing, but you can't argue that it somehow invalidates the score you accumulated thus far. There's no precedent for that in any other DK track that we play. Tougher doesn't automatically mean better, and in this case, I think it hurts the track.

My interpretation of this challenge is that you're supposed to get as far as you can without using the hammer in the process of clearing any boards. If you accidentally grab a hammer, okay, kill your guy and redo the board. You're still holding to the underlying "no hammers allowed" principle, and you still have to complete 116 boards the same as the guy who never grabs one. And it's semi-rare anyway. You're not gonna do it every game, or even every 20 games.

I'm just thinking about this relative to protocols in other games and sports. Grabbing a hammer in a no-hammer run is akin to a foul. In most games, fouling just gets you a penalty. To be DQ'ed, you actually have to show ill intent, like intentionally cheating, or something happens to render the game unplayable or to have been compromised from the outset.

Soccer, for example, is a "no hands allowed" game, but if somebody DOES use their hands, you don't declare the entire game null and void, or end it then and there. You give the offending team a penalty (the other team gets a direct free kick) and you keep going!

It's definitely too late to set it up so that the penalty for a hammer grab is a lost life and a forced "do over' of the board, as opposed to an instant game over, but I don't think it's too late to at least make the score acceptable up to the point of the grab.
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Fast Eddie

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Re: No hammer rules change!
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2015, 02:47:46 pm »
Grabbing a hammer is NOT kicking a pie. It is NOT getting 1/16d.

Grabbing a hammer is Far worse than that, and must be punished accordingly  <mad>

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Offline stella_blue

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Re: No hammer rules change!
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2015, 02:52:07 pm »
It's definitely too late to set it up so that the penalty for a hammer grab is a lost life and a forced "do over' of the board, as opposed to an instant game over, but I don't think it's too late to at least make the score acceptable up to the point of the grab.

I agree; that's why I chose the 2nd option.

Let's use Jeff Wolfe as an extreme, hypothetical example:

Imagine if Jeff, giddy with excitement after clearing the final rivet on 21-6, had absentmindedly grabbed the bottom hammer on 22-1?  He does it by sheer force of habit, operating on cruise control at that point.

Sure, one could argue that he did not technically killscreen the game, because he grabbed the hammer before the timer glitch kicked in.  But would anyone in their right mind deny him the NH world record?  I don't think so.

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Fast Eddie

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Re: No hammer rules change!
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2015, 04:24:53 pm »
Thats even worse, he wouldnt be punished at all for a hammer grab on the killscreen  :( >:( <mad>

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Offline jwade614

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Re: No hammer rules change!
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2015, 04:27:15 pm »
I voted "Game Over", but after further thought I would change my vote to "DQ", only because that has been the rule from the start.

I believe the presence of the "DQ" rule vs. the alternate "Game Over" (or any other) rule could actually affect the way a player plays deep into a game in certain situations. Thus, if the rule were to change, the integrity of the track would be compromised (even if just slightly and in ways that are not obvious/documentable/quantifiable).

The hypothetical example of Jeff Wolfe (or anyone) grabbing the hammer on 22-1 would simply be unfortunate. (Too bad, so sad.)
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 04:36:39 pm by jwade614 »
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Offline d3scride

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Re: No hammer rules change!
« Reply #25 on: April 05, 2015, 05:02:46 pm »
I've personally botched a 500k+ game with 2 lives remaining because of the current ruleset, but I still think it should remain unchanged.
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Offline Adam_Mon

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Re: No hammer rules change!
« Reply #26 on: April 05, 2015, 05:16:09 pm »
Chris, Is it possible to change votes on the poll?

I feel I voted to hastily last night and reconsidered my standpoint.

While I think its a shame for a great No Hammer performance to go to waste and be entirely DQ'd due to a hammer grab,

I have to admit I like Tim's view about the hammer being an object to be avoided at all costs.
plus it opens up all new realms of   <popcorn> ..

So just a reminder view the poll with -1 on the second option since I cant physically remove my own vote.

<stirpot> <stirpot> <stirpot> <stirpot> <stirpot> <stirpot> <stirpot> <stirpot> <stirpot> <stirpot>  <stirpot>


Offline stella_blue

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Re: No hammer rules change!
« Reply #27 on: April 05, 2015, 05:46:49 pm »
Thats even worse, he wouldnt be punished at all for a hammer grab on the killscreen  :( >:( <mad>

It would be a minimal punishment of 100-300 points for the barrel(s) he may have otherwise jumped.

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Offline marinomitch13

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Re: No hammer rules change!
« Reply #28 on: April 05, 2015, 06:10:38 pm »
Theoretically speaking, allowing *grabbing* of the hammer, in any way, allows a jump to made in such a way that Jumpman's apex happens in a part of the board where it previously was not allowed, thereby allowing there also to be -again, theoretically- points to be leached from a barrel/fireball passing underneath (or nearby) in a manner that was not possible previously. Though this element is theoretically minuscule (especially when not exploited), it may be used as a means to cash in a man with an extra 100/300/500 points that was not possible otherwise (jumping over/towards an object/s just as time expires in a way that effects what would not have been possible otherwise -namely, a slight accrual of points).

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« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 06:12:50 pm by marinomitch13 »
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: No hammer rules change!
« Reply #29 on: April 05, 2015, 07:13:15 pm »
I'm actually rather enjoying Jon's balls-to-the-wall viewpoint on this.  ;D

I think too much sometimes, I admit it...

I was the one who got that killscreen/screenkill discussion rolling. I half-promised myself I'd never do that again.  Kappa

As for vote-changing, I don't think I can do anything to make that possible, at least not on my end.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2015, 07:19:13 pm by ChrisP »
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
Member for 11 Years DK Masters - Rank D DKJR Killscreener IGBY 2016 DKF Team Member IGBY 2015 DKF Team Member IGBY 2014 DKF Team Member Blogger Twitch Streamer DK Killscreener CK Killscreener