Donkey Kong Forum
General Donkey Kong Discussion => The Kong Off => Topic started by: jdgilliam1 on October 24, 2013, 08:03:24 am
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I hate that I won't be able to make it to the Kong Off this year! I want to go more than anything! Will there be a Kong Off 4? Because if there is I WILL BE THERE!
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Will there be a Kong Off 4?
Only if Allen goes to Kong Off 3.
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I've been planning to go to a Kong Off the last 2 years and something always screwed up my plans. I will not miss the Kong Off 4 for nothing!! ;D
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But will there be a Kong Off 10?
It will take me that long to save enough money to fly to the US.
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I see that Richie mentioned on facebook that he was starting preparations for Kong Off 4. Hopefully he will chime in here with some details as to what some of his ideas are at this point.
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Anyone know any details on KO4?
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I'm wondering about details too Dave.
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Hopefully he will chime in here with some details as to what some of his ideas are at this point.
ROFL
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Hopefully he will chime in here with some details as to what some of his ideas are at this point.
ROFL
(http://www.secondcitizen.net/Forum/images/smilies/th_mob.gif)
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Well it's gonna be in Jersey that's for sure <Allen>
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Well it's gonna be in Jersey that's for sure <Allen>
Actually that's not certain. He's got connections in other states.
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I'd be happy with maybe Chicago. Living in Indianapolis everywhere else is so far!
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It is 99.9% going to be in New Jersey. Another option we are kicking around is renting a warehouse in NYC if our sponsors agree to the additional cost of renting a high profile venue. The event is tenatively slated for early Nov 2014. Right now I have some ideas to make the event even more interesting but I wanna run them by you guys. Also, this time around I would like to give the MAME players a louder voice. I think it is time to think outside the barrel and really switch it up a bit. Please visit the official Kong Off 4 Facebook page;
https://www.facebook.com/KongOff4?skip_nax_wizard=true (https://www.facebook.com/KongOff4?skip_nax_wizard=true)
I will also be more active here as the weeks fly by. I am off to go play some Kong <Pigger>
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Thanks for that message, Richie, much appreciated.
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Super mega-appreciated.
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Thanks for the update Ritchie. We look forward to the continuing progress for the next event.
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Oh yer buddy. Home state hype.
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Very awesome. May the Kong Off live forever
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This is awesome news. Really looking forward to this one as well! Kreygasm Kappa <Wiebe> <Billy> <Walter> <Allen>
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Richie, you're awesome. Thanks for the sweet update. If any of us can help at all, let us know what we can do.
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Richie, you're awesome. Thanks for the sweet update. If any of us can help at all, let us know what we can do.
Yes! You have a DK army here, ready to help out wherever we can.
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OK, here goes;
Steve Weibe is the mastermind behind this switch up and the idea lit a candle under my ass.
I may be alone in the opinion that another Kong Off with the same old "highest score wins"
is getting a tad stale.
Imagine a Kong Off where you guys are not glued to the machine for the entire event.
Imagine a Kong Off with much more nail-biting moments.
Imagine more contestants on a much more level playing field.
Think "College Basketball" For just a second, stop thinking about barrels and imagine "brackets"
Anybody feeling me here??
John Salter..... help me out on this one <Tim>
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just a super quick mock up of what I sort of envision.... maybe even double elim?
opinions!??
Imagine the stress level and watching the event as a spectator...
could be fun???
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I think I told you at KO3 (or should have anyway) that I completely support the format change.
Now, though, it must be decided whether the tournament should be "single-elimination", or something else. Very curious to see opinions on this matter.
[EDIT] Dang, you're too fast Richie. Single-elimination might be too harsh. After all, DK can be a bit random. However, under your direction, Richie, I am certain there will be plenty of fun stuff for the eliminated competitors to do.
[2nd EDIT] How did Allen get a 9 seed and Tessler got a 16? LOL. Good shit!
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Awesome, this is how I planned to run the the no-hammer tournament this year. Maybe any unforeseen issues that come in it can be addressed before the Kong off ,kinda use it as a testing ground. :)
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Again,
This is all in the planning stages, and I beg you guys for player's feedback.
I truly want to make The Kong Off 4 fun again. Not just for me, but for the players, spectators and everyone else.
The bracket posters are gonna kick ass
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlcW-LFzx9Y&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlcW-LFzx9Y&feature=youtu.be)
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I really enjoy this format, and I really enjoy that nobody knows who they will face!
But using that format, I don't think you will need more than 12 machines (considering a game won't last more than 2 hours, there will be at least 4 games on each machine = 48 games per machine x 2 days = 96 games), I think that would be enough
My suggestion: We should only allow people with a kill screen to participate at the Kong Off 4, which will represent like 70 possible players. To participate at the tournament, you need to at least have decent skills (this is, after all, a tournament about the best players!). With every kill screen players, it doesn't matter who faces who, you will never be sure who will win. Otherwise, Hank could face a guy that has a 300k Personal Best, then it's extremely unlikely for the guy that has a 300k PB to win. So in order to make it VERY exciting, only KS players should participate in my opinion <Kuh>
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Check out Brackelope if you don't know it (www.brackelope.com (http://www.brackelope.com))
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***IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT***
As you all know, the Kong Off 4 will be coming up later on this year. The new structure of the KO 4 will most likely be based on a bracketed layout. The seeding for the bracketed layout will involve the Donkey Kong Online Open Tournaments. It is in the best interest of all players to participate in as many DK online tournaments as they can to obtain their best possible highest score. Players who do not participate in any of the online tournaments who also participate in the KO 4 will be seeded at the bottom of the field in the order determined by the event coordinators. More details to follow...
Good luck to all players!!!
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I really enjoy this format, and I really enjoy that nobody knows who they will face!
But using that format, I don't think you will need more than 12 machines (considering a game won't last more than 2 hours, there will be at least 4 games on each machine = 48 games per machine x 2 days = 96 games), I think that would be enough
My suggestion: We should only allow people with a kill screen to participate at the Kong Off 4, which will represent like 70 possible players. To participate at the tournament, you need to at least have decent skills (this is, after all, a tournament about the best players!). With every kill screen players, it doesn't matter who faces who, you will never be sure who will win. Otherwise, Hank could face a guy that has a 300k Personal Best, then it's extremely unlikely for the guy that has a 300k PB to win. So in order to make it VERY exciting, only KS players should participate in my opinion <Kuh>
Or you could have early round matches online. Say there are 64 in the tournament, but the top 16 actually go to the Kong Off itself. I think that would be a better way of doing it and gives more people the chance of participating. Sorta like the Final Four; only a few go to Indianapolis or wherever the championship is held.
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I really like the idea of Bracketed play. I think someone had mentioned a losers bracket; it would make the double elimination scheme possible. We could also have a secondary high score and/or "other bounties" tournament going on at the same time, players could still get use out of the machines and it would give us something else to do in "down-time". Lets be honest, there is something magical about seeing 15 or more DK cabs in a row. \<Walter>╘<Wiebe>╛<Billy>/ Maybe we could skew the payouts in favor of the bracketed tournament, but also have bounties for various scoring achievements (like 1-1, no hammer, start scores, no jump, etc.). I also totally support the idea of players paying in to a "KO4 payout pot" as a possible entry fee for these online dealies. Maybe make them like $10 and divide it between tournament payouts, KO4 payouts and JC payouts <Allen> yer
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Things to consider on a head-to-head bracket system, is how do the head-to-head games play out? Both start at the same time? Or, ONe player goes first then second player tries to beat first score? Or, Completely random depending on game open? The reason I point this out is the player who goes second has the better advantage because they know exactly what to do (pace-wise) to beat the 1st player's score.
IF both start at the same time, then machine will become open in pairs, even though player 1 ended, player 2 can still be playing under they pass the score of player one.
I would prefer this method of paired machines and both head-to-head players starting at the same time, instead of random, coin flip, or one player going before the other., etc..
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Both starting at the same time would be the way to go with the games displayed so you can see how your opponent is doing. This lets players adjust their game to fit the situation.
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I had posted this on facebook, and I may be the only player who thinks this way, but when the structure was first suggested, it raised several red flags. Of all the concerns, I will voice only one. This is probably the way it will be so I don't want to be remembered as the idiot who thought otherwise and gave an 8 point lecture on the failings of said format, and debated it hotly for pages and pages. With that said, and the lack of interest that I would have for participating in this kind of tournament, I think it comes down to simple randomness. Over the course of a weekend, people have a sampling of games that will work closer and closer towards a level playing field. Even then, there is no guarantee that one player will still get more favorable randomness than another. If I only play a total of two games, it does not matter my skill set, if the cards in the randomness is against me, then it will not be a good enough sampling of games. This would not be worth my time to compete or spend the money to attend, and not be at home making money for my family, not to mention that it will be held in November and since I work retail I will not be able to get the time off again. The key here, is sampling of games. When I first heard about the idea, this was the element of the tournament that would get lost, and this is the element that I believe reveal a true weekend champion. Well, that is just one of my opinions. I know there are pros and cons. I just hope that we pick up more pros then we do cons. Try it out, see how it goes, and let me know.
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I had posted this on facebook, and I may be the only player who thinks this way, but when the structure was first suggested, it raised several red flags. Of all the concerns, I will voice only one. This is probably the way it will be so I don't want to be remembered as the idiot who thought otherwise and gave an 8 point lecture on the failings of said format, and debated it hotly for pages and pages. With that said, and the lack of interest that I would have for participating in this kind of tournament, I think it comes down to simple randomness. Over the course of a weekend, people have a sampling of games that will work closer and closer towards a level playing field. Even then, there is no guarantee that one player will still get more favorable randomness than another. If I only play a total of two games, it does not matter my skill set, if the cards in the randomness is against me, then it will not be a good enough sampling of games. This would not be worth my time to compete or spend the money to attend, and not be at home making money for my family, not to mention that it will be held in November and since I work retail I will not be able to get the time off again. The key here, is sampling of games. When I first heard about the idea, this was the element of the tournament that would get lost, and this is the element that I believe reveal a true weekend champion. Well, that is just one of my opinions. I know there are pros and cons. I just hope that we pick up more pros then we do cons. Try it out, see how it goes, and let me know.
Hey Corey,
While the score quality may be effected due to more cautious play overall, we've done the high score thing - we've done it three times. Time to mix it up.
I agree the randomness of DK could play more of a role in this bracket style tournament than it has played an effect on the previous tournaments, but so what? That's part of the excitement. Anything can happen.
Also, there's a very real chance the bracket style will reward a ridiculously consistent player more than any lucky player or any one high score, and that's a good thing. Consistency is an important part of competitive gaming that is too often overshadowed by high-score worshiping.
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It seems a lot of players are into the idea of a new structure for the upcoming Kong Off. I think it would be great to mix it up with something new. I can't speak for everyone, but sometimes people are a little hesitant when it comes to trying new things and may want to stick with what has been done in the past. So the goal here would be to try and please both sides as much as possible, but obviously not everyone will be happy. If we were to do the bracket we would need to organize it to get the whole event done in the amount of time given. I am sure single elimination would be the most feasible way to get the bracket format done by the time the weekend is over. Obviously players wouldn't want to travel for the possibility of playing one game. It would be nice to be able to have another high score format where players have the chance to play through the weekend and stay competitive. I also think keeping the emphasis on the top 12 or whatever it may be to give players something to shoot for throughout the year outside of the tournaments to keep people playing. Those are my thoughts for now, thanks for keeping us posted and it is great to see Ritchie involved with DK players and asking for our input I can't think of a better host for the event.
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i think this new format is interesting. players have all year to shoot for pbs, high scores, and world records whether at home, during one of the online tournaments, or at a live venue. the bracket system would definitely spice things up a little. not to say that the original format was boring in any way.
itll be interesting to see how the no-hammer brackets work out considering this system is now potentially in play for ko4.
Also, there's a very real chance the bracket style will reward a ridiculously consistent player more than any lucky player or any one high score, and that's a good thing. Consistency is an important part of competitive gaming that is too often overshadowed by high-score worshiping.
do you think its any coincidence that wiebe brought this format back into the discussion? mr. consistency himself <Wiebe>
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I notice that a lot of people actually like the proposed structure for the newness of the challenge. But, does it have to be completely away with the old, and replaced with the new? Or is there a kind of balance or alternate structure that could attempt to incorporate some elements from both. For example, maybe we can do the double elimination with half of us on one day, and then the other half the next day. Meanwhile, which ever players are not playing in the double elimination can still be fighting for the high score of the weekend. Then on the final day we can have the final quarter drop with the 'survivors" from the two days, and who ever wants one more shot at the high score of the weekend. I am sure there are other ways that it can all be done so that the weekend will not only test consistency.
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I'd have to say I'm with Corey on this one. I think it would be great to have the two different types of competition going on at the same Kong Off.
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just hand willms the high score money now <YSG>
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I've been thinking about this and Corey and Mitch have some good points. With people investing their time and money to get there they deserve more than one game and the level of play would suffer if players just tried to survive. I love the one on one game format but I think it should be a round robin instead of a bracket. The Olympics have been on and in the ice racing a blue line follows the racer around showing how far ahead or behind they are. If we instituted a non-poser pace requirement to the matches you could get rid of running boards. Say 100K start and 60K a level (100,160,220,280,etc) . If you fail to meet the mark at the end of a level your done. the winner would be the player with the best results head to head. Wildcard would be the downside of this since you would have to limit the entries.
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I like the idea of switching things up. Just thinking off the top of my head, it'll be rather difficult to pull something like this off, without a large number of DK machines. Depending on how many people want to compete...a bracketed tournament could take way longer than the allotted 'weekend' of time there is. I mean say you have 20 DK machines...what is the worst case scenario...? All games going really long1.5-2hours...in which case you could possibly only complete 50 matches in the first day, which might only complete the first round of the bracket...using up the entire first day of the KO4. Just doing the math...it would seem like you would either have to complete initial rounds at an earlier date...online...or extend the length of the KO4.
I'd also agree that you would have to have both players start at the same time...but implementing a 'poser pace' rule would be kinda hard to do. That means we would have to have someone watching each match as it went on...because just missing a level points requirement by a few hundred might be easy to 'miss'...and the match continues on...and the player catches up at the next level...etc.
My idea was to add some complexity to the first day of the competition. We still have random drawings for matches...the matches are played out...but create some sort of point system, where players get points for different things...like playing at a certain pace, 1M+ pace (making it to L12-2 with a score over 500k could net you a certain number of 'match points'), beating your opponent by over 100k nets you some match points, getting a KS nets you big match points, winning the match nets you match points....and everyone plays the same number of matches all day saturday. The match points are added up and seedings created based on match point totals.
Sunday rolls around (single elimination day), and you eliminate the bottom chunk of players based on Saturday's performance (doing some quick math to make sure the entire bracket of Sunday's games can be played out in full)...and Sunday becomes the real deal playoffs...1 match loss and you're out. This way, at least everyone has a full day to play and compete...and nobody is eliminated until Sunday.
I still think the hardest part to officiate is the way the matches are played out. I feel like there will be people complaining about things like 'playing at a poser pace', people stalling (i can see how it would be advantageous to sit on the top ladder on each level...waiting for the timer to run out before completing the screen...hoping your opponent keeps running through levels with more chances of dying and their game ending before yours)...people semi-stalling (hey, im not sitting at the top ladder waiting for the timer to run out, im just running around in the middle or bottom of the screens still 'playing'...but kinda...yea i'm stalling...but not really).
Or, forget all the rules and complexity, tell everyone to man up and make the whole thing single elimination and see how it goes. L3-L4 wild barrels could possibly make the final match rather anti-climactic...the complete opposite of the goal of heads-up competition. Remember, the average game of Donkey Kong doesn't last a minute. <Billy>
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I understand the hesitancy to change it also. And the reason being is that there are several new comers that feel this may be their chance to win it this year. Yes, the "high score" thing has been done before, I some may think it is getting old to some because it has the same people in it. But, there are some new comers that are ready to make a statement with their score now.
It seems a lot are on board with a bracket system, I'm kind of on the fence on it, but I'm sure as it goes on and rules are explained more and hype about how it, etc....I may lend more towards it.
This will definitely be a contest of consistency.
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One concern I would have is if there are matches and say one guy ends the game at 200k The opponent could possible dump the game at 250k because they have already won the match and have no reason to play the game out. There would have to be some kind of motive to get to the end or play at a high pace since people love to see kill screen games and want to watch the few people out there who can do it. With a new system in the works you have to think of every possible scenario and how to handle them.
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yeah Robbie, thats exactly how matches will have to go, or if one player's game ends and the other is already ahead, they quit their and move on, no reason to waste time. Match was already won.
No Hammer is probably more suited for bracket challenge, because of quicker games. Straight up DK has always been about putting up a great score. I hate to see that go away, highest wins, almost like Kong Off should stay Kong off, and the new bracket challenge be something like:
November Kongness! (Play on March Madness if you didnt catch that 8) )
But then, two event will be hard for producers to make happen and contestants to travel, and both at the same time is probably not do-able.
Maybe alternate bracket challenge and Kong Off each year.
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I think what needs to be decided first is if this is a tournament for the players or for the viewers. This is just my opinion, the current format may be the most enjoyable for the players, but it sucks to watch. You have no clue when to tune in to see the best action and have no idea when you might actually see the championship performance.
As a viewer, this is what I'd like to see. Top 16 (or 32) DK players by high score go head to head in a single elimination tournament. No seedings. Matchups to be decided by draw. Single death ends your game. With this format, you should be able to whip this out in a single day. The champs would only play four times. Have advertised starting times for all matches, especially the championship match. And I'd be willing to bet that this championship match would have more viewers than any other in CAG history. But only if we play a single man. If viewers have to watch over an hour of people jumping the same fireballs over and over for an entire game, people aren't going to watch. But if it's single death and the game could end at any time, there's high drama that will be played out over a reasonable period of time and I think people would tune in to watch this drama unfold. I understand the cost to the players just to get to this tournament and maybe most wouldn't want to risk making the trip to have a wild barrel end their day early. But it sure would be a lot of fun to watch.
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D.B. Cooper - Well why can't this for both?
Asking people to spend thousands of dollars for a chance to play only ONE game with the "suck it up if you lose" attitude seems a little harsh to me when there are plenty of options here. Double Elim, Point System, High Score/Bracket, etc, etc.
Heck why can't this be both ways? Have an overall score competition AND a bracket competition that is based on say "First to LVL 10 wins" - This keeps the skill level involved to get past a board faster and prevents the "jump the same fireball over and over" as you mentioned. Plus this also keeps games to an hour or so tops. The minute someone "wins" you stop playing and move on to the next set of matches. You could do this in just a few hours possibly if you leave it to Top xxx (Even 40 would go fast)
Heck you can even have cutoff times for scores which is almost the same thing. cut the field in half every x hours until your down to say the final 4 or 2 fighting it out for high scores. Once a cutoff is done scores are wiped out and you start over in the next "Round". Have a pot for highest overall score, etc, etc.. Soooooooo many options here that should make it exciting for both the observer and the participants. I'm really looking forward to KO4 (gotta get my marquee signed again just like the others oh ya!).
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So I've been putting a little more thought into this new format. Richie's goal for the event is to have at least 23 machines or 24 maybe to make it an even number. So the logistics of running a huge bracket tournament may be way too long and people may not get to play as long as they wanted. There is also a little hesitation about even having a new format for the best interest of future Kong Offs. So this is what I came up with.
The tradition of having the top 12 would remain the same. This would keep interest for all players to play year round with a goal in mind. Selection could be based on the online events or top 12 on TGI or even the DKF scoreboard (This option would give MAME players a shot). The special introductions of each top 12 player is a cool part of the event and I'd like to see it continue. Now here is when they idea of a hybrid event comes into play with the old and new format.
The top 12 would duke it out in a single elimination bracket type format on the first day. You could get 4 matches in the first day comfortably giving the players enough time for breaks and meals. Then hype up The Final Four for Sunday where a champion will be declared.
The second 12 would be selected the same way more likely through the online opens. Maybe even another 12 and they share the machines like last year and top 12 wild cards make it to sunday. They will be in their own competition for the start of the tournament playing the old format of highest score for the weekend. So for the Kong Off 4 there will be two separate competitions one being the bracket champion and the other for highest score.
Now here's the twist. On the first day for the bracket format if a player is eliminated they get entered into the high score competition. I think this will make it interesting because the second 12 or "Wild cards" will have a head start on the highest score competition and leaving some top 12 players with less time to go for the highest score. I think this really levels out the playing field for the highest score competition giving the wild cards the advantage. This way if someone like Jeff or Dean goes deep and gets knocked out in the semi-finals they can still play on Sunday for highest score, but won't have as many chances to get the highest score(they are both good enough to still even put up over a million on short notice).
This is the best thing I came up with and wanted to throw an idea into the mix. This way we can try a new format and still give the top 12 a machine for the weekend like in the past. Also have a Wild Card thing going which is always nice. People really want to see players like Hank, Jeff, Dean, and Steve play for the weekend and this would be a great way to do it.
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I like your idea of players getting eliminated entering the wildcard tournament. This makes the most use of the machines and player's time (surely there will be many players who are traveling long distances to be there). The only potential problems I could see is:
1- bracket tournament players intentionally losing in the first round so they could be entered into the wildcard tournament earlier. (I'll call this the "Dave McCrary effect" since I'm pretty sure he was upset getting knocked out of the top 12 for KO3, but I'm also pretty sure he was glad after it was all said and done-- winning the WC division.)
2- top 12 players who make it deep into the bracket tournament but lose late are left "empty handed"-- not winning the bracket tournament and at the same time not enough time to win the wildcard tournament.
Even with those problems, I still like it.
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1- bracket tournament players intentionally losing in the first round so they could be entered into the wildcard tournament earlier. (I'll call this the "Dave McCrary effect" since I'm pretty sure he was upset getting knocked out of the top 12 for KO3, but I'm also pretty sure he was glad after it was all said and done-- winning the WC division.)
The thing about this is that the bracket tourney will be smaller so it will be easier to pay attention for this possibility. I think it would be hard to throw the match and not make it obvious. Maybe have the prize for the bracket tourney higher than the high score tourney to keep the motivation to play well in the brackets.
2- top 12 players who make it deep into the bracket tournament but lose late are left "empty handed"-- not winning the bracket tournament and at the same time not enough time to win the wildcard tournament.
That's kind of the beauty of it. It adds a little bit to the pressure to do well. Say you left the semi finals for Sunday and a player got eliminated that round, they would still have some time to play for highest score. If we started at 11 like we did this past year and the games were kill screens or close to it they would still have at least four hours to get a game going which is still plenty of time in my opinion. Even if it wasn't enough time for them it would be a little harsh, but not as harsh getting knocked out and not playing the rest of the weekend. Probably pay out the two finalists so they won't have to worry about being left with nothing. This would avoid the possibility of double dipping the prize pool.
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That sounds exactly like what I had for ideas Robbie. I like the idea of the bracket, but with a "second chance" to win in another high score tournament. Take the top 12 in the bracket with the final four on Sunday, and at the same time, let the eliminated players join the wild card tournament for the overall high score. My only difference was to have one final match pitting the tournament winner Vs. the high score winner Sunday night. Both could win a prize for their respected tournament victories, but only one true champion is crowned over the weekend. I think the high score is important, so people don't spend a ton of money, time, and vacation with the chance of only playing one match and being done for the weekend.