Donkey Kong Forum
General Donkey Kong Discussion => General Donkey Kong Discussion => Topic started by: Mary McManus on October 15, 2013, 06:06:28 pm
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Argument presented by Chrisp and my response.
CHRISP SAYS: Tim, I'm not going to argue about the process and philosophy behind storytelling and filmmaking, because a person can only discern that kind of stuff themselves. Nobody is going to convince you, with the bias that you have, that it made artistic sense to omit you from the movie. You either get that or you don't. No argument can transmit that understanding. And while I don't know what the "legal" definition of a documentary is, I know that it is not the responsibility of a documentary to be encyclopedic or comprehensive. Documentary filmmaking is an art, not a science.
TIM SAYS: I am not biased, just because all the facts and documentation are in my favor does not mean I'm biased, it just means I'm in the right. I'm sorry you "think" its being biased. Here is the legal definition of the word "documentary":
doc-u-men-ta-ry (adj)
1. Consisting of, concerning or based on documented fact.
2. Presenting facts objectively WITHOUT EDITORIALIZING OR INSERTING FICTIONAL MATTER AS IN BOOK OR FILM!.
CHRISP SAYS: You asked for fact-based rationale behind why you were omitted, so I'll be more black-and-white about it. You can ignore the facts or engage them, up to you, I'm just posting this for your edification because it's been a while since anyone introduced anything new to this discussion, at least in terms of specifics and primary sources (though some great points are being made).
TIM SAYS: No, it is you who are ignoring the facts and documentation and considering the documentation in my favor, I'd hardly say the other side of the argument is rational.
CHRISP SAYS: In any case, you need to stop dropping the entirety of the blame on Ed and Seth for your score not being mentioned. Not only are they not solely responsible, I would go further to say that, of all the players involved, they were probably the LEAST responsible.
CHRISP SAYS: The fact of the matter is this: while the filmmakers didn't acknowledge you, the people in the scene didn't acknowledge you either, and that is, without a doubt, a major contributing factor for why the filmmakers made the determination that they made.
TIM SAYS: Is it not the job of the film producers to research the very subject material they themselves are documenting? Does the TG scoreboard and its ranking/verification mean anything?
CHRISP SAYS: Let's start with their official position:
CHRISP SAYS: Here's the quote from the old KoK official site (which is now gone BTW):
TIM SAYS: Yea I'll bet its gone by now!
CHRISP SAYS: "While our movie focuses on the rivalry between Billy and Steve, one other gamer has a very high-score in the Twin Galaxies database on Donkey Kong, Tim Sczerby. After repeated investigations into the validity of Tim's score, and after finding one dead end after another in our Twin-Galaxies-assisted attempts to reach Mr. Sczerby, we determined that his consistently disputed record was impossible to verify and did not merit inclusion in the film.
TIM SAYS: There's your problem right there, as it states "TG assisted attempts". A TG assisted "anything" just indicates either a 3 stooges level of bungling incompetence or deliberate cover up for their own advantage to anyone in already the know.
TIM SAYS: MY score was NEVER disputed nor impossible to verify as I always stated I have a duplicate copy of that video. I offered to show it to Walter Billy and anyone else at that time but still no interest. I'll bet not.
TIM SAYS: The only person from TG (or rather who left TG in disgust) who did show interest in seeing it and uncovering the truth of the matter was Dwayne Richards. Dwayne Richards viewed this video in 2008 and had no problem with it as I conformed to TG rules at the time.
TIM SAYS: Are you telling me that Brian Kuh is more of an expert on the matter than Dwayne Richards?! Your NOT going to tell me that are you? You better re-think that one LONG AND HARD!
TIM SAYS: Believe me, in the summer of 2007 Walter and Billy had absolutely NO PROBLEM what so ever promptly contacting me after their checks cleared. This was the first I knew there was film interest in the subject material. I was shocked they allowed my score disenfranchisement!
CHRISP SAYS: The experts on the subject of Donkey Kong, especially Brian Kuh, always referred to Billy Mitchell as the reigning champion and maintained that his unrivaled skill put him on top of the record holder chart."
TIM SAYS" There's your other problem, Brian Kuh is your ... so-called.. "expert"?! I assume he could read TG's own scoreboard at the time? One does not need to be a DK expert to look at a score board and see what the date/rankings are. Is Brian Kuh himself saying that TGs scoreboard and verification methods are meaningless?
TIM SAYS: Aside from being a sycophantic toady, I don't see what other "expertise" Brian Kuh had to offer the film. Again, your not going to tell me that Brian Kuh has more "expertise" and knowledge of the DK game play/ scoring history than Dwayne Richards?
CHRISP SAYS" So are they telling the truth, or is this smoke-screening bullshit?
TIM SAYS: Yes, I just illustrated above that this was just more smoke-screening Bullshit on behalf of TG and its toadies. Check the "official" TG scoreboard for yourself. My record breaking DK score is still dated 3 years before Steve W. submitted anything on DK.
CHRISP SAYS: The cynical view is that it's bullshit, but it's not that simple.
TIM SAYS: NO, the "factual" view is that it IS bullshit, plain and simple. Please do not try that psychological "gaslighting' by indicating that if I respond further, I'm being cynical. No, I'm presenting facts and doing a good job. :)
CHRISP SAYS: Some direct quotes from the movie:
Greg Bond:
"Steve deserves a lot of credit for that because he also... He also broke the record on Donkey Kong Jr. So he--he took two--He took two of Billy's titles, like, right away from him. And l don't mean to sound, you know, crude or anything. But he did. He did. Officially, he did."
TIM SAYS: This is an inaccurate statement as it is documented on TG's own "official" scoreboard as well as media attention in 2000 that I was the first to break Billys 1982 record NOT STEVE.
Brian Kuh:
"Um, for years and years, it was believed that Billy's record of 874,000 in 1982 was really the highest score anyone would ever get. And in fact, some of us have played this game every day or every week or every month since then, and no one's gotten close to that."
TIM SAYS: Again, this is your so-called "expert"?! These people can't even look at thier own "official"score board for reference or even re-read the very articals they themselves write and publicize?! This is yet another proven inaccurate statement by Brian KUH. So much for your "expert"
TIM SAYS: It was well documented on TG's own scoreboard as well as given media attention in their own archives during late 2000 that I beat Billys 1982 score on 8/16/ 2000. Keep'em comming ChrisP as I enjoy blowing holes in your argument defending KOK and TGs fraudulent actions with my facts and documentation.
Roy Shildt:
"That was the last world record that Bill ever had. That was the last one to go. He had five world records in 1985, he had the Donkey Kong, and then Steve Wiebe took it away."
TIM SAYS : These jokers your using for your defense was a HUGE mistake on your part ChrisP!
TIM SAYS: They are grossly misinformed, reading a script or just plain lying.
Again, it was well documented in CAG media at the time and even visible on TGs own "official" scoreboard for "THREE" YEARS as it is to this very day, that I was the first to beat Billys 1982 record..............NOT STEVE...this is NOT debateable!
TIM SAYS: Billy himself even stated this. As Billy called me in 2000 personally and congratulated me. The fact is Steve was never the first to beat Billys 1982 score, I was. So why am I seeing a DOC (KOK) stating for fact that Steve was the first to accomplish what I had done 3 years prior?
TIM SAYS: The film makers ARE NOT FREE TO USE "ARTISTIC LICENSE" in this content as it is a gross omission of historical fact the very subject material they are documenting is based on. Re-read the definition of "documentary" and think again.
Billy Mitchell:
"The people who could get, besides myself, that have been seen getting to the end of Donkey Kong? Gee, now that I think about it, I don't think anybody has."
TIM SAYS: This statement coming from the very same guy that called me a few years earlier and congratulated me himself for my DK accomplishment?!!....................'nuff said here. I
TIM SAYS: You picked some very,VERY weak points and character witnesses to touch on and use in your defense case ChrisP :(.............keep'em comming! Its like shooting fish in a barrel! :)
ChrisP SAYS: And then we have Robert Mruczek, quoted earlier in this thread, who didn't exactly give your score a ringing endorsement. He talks about it in this shadowy, mysterious way: "I've never seen it, I don't know who verified it," etc.
TIM SAYS: Robert was stating he doesn't know who verified my score, but obviously someone did or it wouldn't be on the score board now wouldn't it? I'm sure Billy did not call me personally and congratulate me if it wasn't verified by someone.....think about it! I'm sure TG would not have given it media attention in CAG circles at the time if were not verified unless your implying TG its verification process, scoreboard and credibility are worthless, your not saying that are you?
CHRISP SAYS: With how suspicious Robert tends to be about everything and everyone who isn't known to the scene, I would not be surprised if he had an off-camera discussion with the filmmakers where he cast doubt on the score.
TIM SAYS: I'm Sure Robert Murczek is more than capable of reading TG's own scoreboard and determining ranking position on DK. Again the facts were always infront of them, they chose to ignore them!
CHRISP SAYS: In any case, that's five people from the scene who say, in no uncertain terms, that Steve was the one to take Billy's 1982 record.
TIM SAYS: That's five people you provided who's statements and testimonies at the time I just tore to shreds with TG's own documentation and facts! So much for your expert witnesses and your "awesome argument". Would you like me to continue?
CHRISP SAYS: That doesn't make it true of course, but THE FILMMAKERS WERE RELYING ON THESE PEOPLE FOR THEIR INFORMATION.
TIM SAYS: It is the responsibility of the KOK film makers to do their own independent research on the very material they are documenting. The fact that the KOK film makers (SETH GORDON AND ED CUNNINGHAM) obviously did not do this only proves gross their journalistic ineptitude and a 3 stooges level of bungling incompetence as well.
TIM SAYS: As "Documentarians" it is the producers job (SETH GORDON nad ED CUNNINGHAM) to look into and research facts themselves as independents, not just following gossip, hearsay and rumors from sycophantic TG cronies out to make a buck for themselves by covering up facts and exploiting someone else's subject material for themselves.
CHRISP SAYS: When they hear "Billy was the champion until Steve came along", from one person after another, is it not understandable for them to come to the conclusion that this might be true? When not a single person from the scene acknowledged you (until of course after the movie came out and everybody in it wanted to complain about how "inaccurate" it was for pointing cameras at them as they said things that they later found embarrassing), what did you expect the filmmakers to do, other than to decide that it was probably best to stick to what they could be sure of, and steer clear of your score?
TIM SAYS: This does not excuse the producers from any liability or wrong doing as it is the film makers job to research the facts themselves. Obviously they did not. This also does not excuse TG and its insiders who profited by covering up vital info in my favor the producers should've known about regarding the historical facts on the subject material they were documenting.
CHRISP SAYS: Or were all of those quotes scripted? What, was everybody in on the conspiracy?
TIM SAYS: Inlight of the facts and documentation I provided, the quotes you based your argument on were either scripted, or they were lying or just misinformed at the time. Again, you need to stop using KOK as a reference source for factual data when presenting a defensive argument on the subject.
TIM SAYS:This is your trouble.
TIM SAYS: Using KOK as your source of factual reference and historical info is your whole problem to begin with. I can't stress this enough. I'm only trying to help you present a better argument and you can't do that if everything you understand on the topic was based in a lie. Garbage in Garbage out as the programmers say.
TIM SAYS: Here is the legal definition of conspiracy:
con-spir-a-cy (n, PL.)
1.An agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act.
2. A group of conspirators.
3. (Law) An agreement between two or more persons to commit a crime ior accomplish a legal pourpose through illegal or dishonest action.
4. A joining or acting together, as if by sinister design.
TIM SAYS: If the way KOK was conceived and executed was not a conspiracy by definition,then I don't know what is.
CHRISP SAYS: It wasn't a conspiracy, and there was no malice either. People either didn't realize, didn't care, or had forgotten that you'd beaten Billy.
TIM SAYS: Read the above definition of conspiracy and re-think. These same people that simply "forgot" couldn't use thier own "OFFICIAL" TG scoreboard and reference material for a reference guide? What does TG have an "OFFICIAL" scoreboard for anyway?
CHRISP SAYS: Even in this very tight-knit DK community, not everybody is aware of everything (to put it mildly). I see over and over, and am often surprised by, how much gets missed. The extent to which you have to smash people over the head with even the simplest things to actually get them into everybody's line of sight can be very frustrating.
TIM SAYS" Whats really frustrating is the fact I can prove everything and document everything I said in my defense and people still don't get it or refuse to even acknowledge it. What's more than frustraiting is these conspiritors,Walter, Steve, Billy and Steve Saunders and the films producers made a tidy penny for themselves by disenfranchising me/ my score and deliberately writing me out of the subject material I was directly and historicaly apart of at the time. They all profited as a result. How do these sociopaths sleep at night? Yet they have an anual CAG event every year in their honor?! Its absurd.
TIM SAYS: For this reason KOK will always remain a huge black eye on the honesty and integrity of arcade score keeping.
CHRISP SAYS: In any case, not everybody always knows who beat whom, where everybody stands on every high score list, etc. It's a lot to keep track of.
TIM SAYS: Then what is the use of submitting "official" scores for verification or having a so-called "official"scoreboard to keep track of them for reference?
CHRISP SAYS: The Donkey Kong world record was not on many peoples' radars in 2000. CAG as a whole was very "sleepy" at the time. Beating a (top-hammer only) world record by 5K was not huge news, and at least a couple of the people I quoted probably weren't even aware that it had happened.
TIM SAYS: If Billys 1982 score was beat by 100 pts or by 100,000 points, winning is winning.
TIM SAYS: There was media attention to my accomplishment given in CAG circles at the time and I assure you Walter Day and Billy both knew this. Again, the score to this day remains on the so-called TG "official" scoreboard. Care to take a look at the score and date...anyone?!.......anyone at all?
CHRISP SAYS: Nobody sent Greg Bond or Roy Shildt or Brian Kuh certified letters letting them know that you had squeaked past Billy (and even if they had, all of them knew that Billy's PB was higher than 879K anyway).
TIM SAYS: Why would these people need "certified letters" of me beating Billys 1982 record when all they or anyone else for that matter had to do was check the TG "official" score board and DK ranking status on thier own site...or read their own media articals?....Very simple concept here, unless one cannot read or refuses to see the facts.
CHRISP SAYS: And then in 2003 the "Billy vs. Steve" thing started, which was not, by the way, manufactured by the filmmakers. It was exaggerated and stylized a little, and simplified a lot, but it was definitely underway long before the movie was even a concept.
CHRISP SAYS: This interview is from Classic Gaming Expo, 2004. Two years before KoK. You were not mentioned in this interview either.
(Incidentally, Billy got 933K live at that very event, putting both Steve and Billy way ahead of you by the time the documentary got rolling.)
TIM SAYS: In KOK Steve is clearly setting out to beat Billys long standing 1982 record................too bad for Steve I had already done that 3 years before he did. Again, this is fact and NOT debatable. TGs own "official scoreboard " clearly indicates this. Are you saying TG was never "the official scorekeeper" and TGS credibility as "OFFICIAL" score keepers is just crud all the time?
CHRISP SAYS: Skip to 13:00. Steve describes his history with DK.
Wiebe:
"I was scoring in the 900 thousands, encountered this kill screen, I go, 'well I have to get to that level again to see what happens'. The next time I got there I had two men so I was killed twice. So then I said, 'well what's the point of continuing?', that's probably what Billy thought. So I sold it, and I was always curious what the high score was so I looked on the Internet, about 5 years ago, and Twin Galaxies had a list of scores, and I saw it was 874,000 by Billy Mitchell... and I said 'well, I know I can beat 874,000' so I went and I bought another machine off Ebay."
TIM SAYS: Remember Alexander Gram Bell and Elijah Grey? Both Gram Bell and Elijah Grey were developing at about the same time a device called a telephone. Gram Bell beat Grey to the patent office first and was "officially" granted the patent. The rest is history.
TIM SAYS: So If I make a Documentary stating Elijah Grey had beat Gram Bell to the patent office first and then exploit and I profit from the fraud, it will be O.K. with the national historical society? I think not! But after all its "JUST ART" " is it not as you said earlier. No, that excuse wont fly the national historical society. So why is the same dynamic O.K. with the gamming community?
TIM SAYS: Steve's claims on his scores at the time, true or not are hearsay and conjecture. The documented fact as indicated by TG's own "OFFICIAL" scoreboard and record archive is I beat Steve to the punch in his KOK documented quest by a few years and beat Billys 1982 record first. Guess what, Steve is Elijah Grey in this analogy. Does Elijah Grey get historical credit or profits from Gram Bells patent...NO!
CHRISP SAYS: Steve isn't lying or covering you up here because this interview is from 2004 and he said that he checked out the record 5 years before, which would be 1999, before you came along, and when Billy was still on top.
TIM SAYS: I'm not lying either when I say can prove I beat out Steves goal by 3 years...so why is KOK based on Steve setting out to beat Billys 1982 DK record and not me? ( please don't refer back to your previous argument which I factualy tore to shreads as it is no longer a defense)
TIM SAYS: Why did Steve take credit for a gaming accomplishment I did , exploit and profit from it? Why does the gaming community know this yet continue to support Steve and TG when the facts and historical documentation indicate otherwise? Just further proof of what little character Steve, Billy, Walter and TG really have.
TIM SAYS: So much for TG being the "official" score keepers/trackers huh?
CHRISP SAYS: And again, he's saying this before any movie of any kind had ever been thought of, so he's not strategically avoiding mention of you for the purpose of some grand scheme. There was no cover-up, because at that point there was no reason to cover anything up. Steve bought the machine and went after Junior and DK with the understanding that it was Billy's scores he was coming after. You came along inbetween.
TIM SAYS: O.K., but like Gram Bell did to Elijah Grey, I beat Steve to the very gaming accomplishment KOK is based on by 3 years. This is fact and NOT debatable! So Why is Steve taking credit for it and profiting from it when it was a well documented fact in CAG circles in 2000 that I had already "officially" beat Billys 1982 DK score?
TIM SAYS:This was also documented by TG themselves and placed on their own "OFFICIAL" scoreboard FOR THREE YEARS as the score to beat at the time and still remains to this day.The score and date remains on said "OFFICIAL" score board to this very day.
TIM SAYS: I will remind you again your previous argument is now full of holes and foundering faster than the Titanic at an iceberg. It was a weak defense to begin with.
CHRISP SAYS: Also, at 14:05, Steve says he bought his first DK machine in 1990, meaning that he was scoring in the 900Ks in 1990. Ten years before you took down Billy's 1982 score. I've said this before and I'll say it again: you never had the highest DK score, and you were not the first to beat Billy. Just because you appeared at the top of the TG list for a few years doesn't mean that you were the true record holder. This really is important.
TIM SAYS: Yes it is! So what you are saying in this statement is that the "OFFICIAL" TG scoreboard is meaningless and counts for nothing official when it comes to tracking scores when compared to rumors, and hearsay? Why are Steves scores taken at word of mouth face value while my "documented" and verified score 3 years before Steve submited anything on DK is lied about and discredited?
TIM SAYS: Just because Steve "claims" to have had those scores back in the day do not make them verified and official unless your implying that TG's "OFFICIAL" scoreboard was and still is meaningless crus and NOT an accurate tracking of "official" scores. Is this what you are saying that verbal statements and hearsay take priority over TG's own "official" score board?
TIM SAYS: The fact is I followed the rules, and played accordingly. I went through proper channels and submitted a documented and verified score to TG surpassing Billys 1982 DK record 3 years before Steve was documented doing anything on DK.
TIM SAYS: Again this is NOT debatable. So your telling me TG'S scoreboard counts for nothing? TG's own score board means nothing? A congratulatory call from Billy Mitchell himself means nothing? Why did Steve profit from this subject matter and not me? Again , your previous argument lays in ruin at the bottom of the Atlantic so don't make me repeat myself.
CHRISP SAYS: In fact, omitting your score is not so much a lie as a simplification, one that actually serves the truth. The real-world fact is that Steve was ahead of you the whole time. They did a lot of condensing of reality in that movie, like combining what was actually four world record submissions into one, because it was completely necessary to do that in an 80-minute film aimed at non-CAG people who don't want to hear a bunch of boring details about Double Donkey Kong that they can't even understand.
TIM SAYS: Refer to the legal definition of "documentary" I supplied earlier and then apply it to how KOK was executed. If Steve was "ahead of me the whole time", as you state then why did he not submit a score and beat Billys 1982 record before I did? Again, check your facts and history reguarding the scoring on DK. 'Nuff said here :) By the way "artistic license" does not excuse a documentarian from omitting facts his material is based on..so call it "art" all you want.
CHRISP SAYS: So there you go. Ed and Seth didn't think that you were a significant part of this because the community didn't regard you as a significant part of this. Most in the community were (evidently) either unaware of you, or had forgotten you by the time the documentary got rolling. Given the circumstances of what was happening then between Billy and Steve, it's not hard to see why.
TIM SAYS: So there "you" go, a piece by piece dissection of your defense of KOK as a DOC and the actions taken by those who perpetrated it. People really need to stop using KOK as a source of factual reference material when it comes to defending the very same film. This is everybodys main problem.
TIM SAYS: Again I will ask why did both Steves, Billy and walter profited financially from disenfranchising my "verified" score that pre-dates Steves by 3 years?
TIM SAYS:Was it fair that I went though proper channels and had a verified score (see TGS scoreboard) beating Billys 1982 DK record 3 years before Steve, yet they discredit the score in favor of Steve when the subject material has interest and becomes profitable?
TIM SAYS: This is not only unfair but forever puts a huge black eye on TG as a credible source of gaming history and score keeping. So much for your "awesome argument"
TIM SAYS :As Darth Vader said after defeting the young jedi "ALL TOO EASY"
« Last Edit: Today at 02:02:00 AM by ChrisP »
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This post reminds me of a quote from a friend regarding phish and the culture: "For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't, no explanation is possible."
Best of luck in your endeavors, Tim.
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Do we get a forum badge if we read the whole thing?
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Tim, do you have documented evidence that Billy called you?
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Tim, do you have documented evidence that Billy called you?
Yes I do, from Billy himself. I can see you never bothered to watch the re-butal to KOK called "KING OF CON". This was done by Dwayne Richards last year. I suggest you go to you tube and watch it as it is a" real" DOC unlike KOK. Dwayne covers some little known issues on Pacman and Donkey Kong that every Kong-Head should know.
Heres the link:
King of Con! part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBItUZyKHSU#)
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Do we get a forum badge if we read the whole thing?
Haha, funny.
This would be the hardest badge to get... the "1.2m badge" would be easier to get ;).
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Yes I do, from Billy himself.
I thought he was an unreliable source?
I can see you never bothered to watch the re-butal to KOK called "KING OF CON"
Actually, I've watched it twice. Careful... jumping to conclusions is a very bad habit to get into. ;)
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Yes I do, from Billy himself.
I thought he was an unreliable source?
Billy has stated multiple times he did call me.......maybe you don't think Billy is a reliable source of info on the subject material but I assure you I am and Billy did in fact call me in 2000 to congratulate me as did Walter.as I stated
My god, I can see you people don't even care for the historical accuracy of the very game you claim to love so much. All you want to do is feed off each other ego and worship Steve, Walter and Billy as celebrities.
I can see you never bothered to watch the re-butal to KOK called "KING OF CON"
Actually, I've watched it twice. Careful... jumping to conclusions is a very bad habit to get into. ;)
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This post reminds me of a quote from a friend regarding phish and the culture: "For those who understand, no explanation is necessary. For those who don't, no explanation is possible."
Your friend stole my Robby Roto quote.
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My god, I can see you people don't even care for the historical accuracy of the very game you claim to love so much. All you want to do is feed off each other ego and worship Steve, Walter and Billy as celebrities.
Tim, it was a documentary about "The King of Kong", and at the time the Kings were Billy and Steve going back and forth with scores like 933K, 985K, 1.06M, etc (all way above 879k)...even though it focused more on the million achieved by Steve and how that upstaged the legend of Billy.
Your score was an accomplishment, we all recognize that, but it only would have diluted the documentary on the two Kings of Kong that they were talking about.
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Billy has stated multiple times he did call me.......maybe you don't think Billy is a reliable source of info on the subject material but I assure you I am and Billy did in fact call me in 2000 to congratulate me as did Walter.as I stated
You yourself have said that you don't think he is a reliable source... but now you are saying he is? Which is it?
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I premise my response with the fact that I have read Chris' post and now Tim's.
Tim, I think that Chris' use of quotes from the KOK was only to set up the question of why people would consider Billy Mitchell as the champion, and to show how it is possible that more blame could be placed upon those who made those statements and not as much upon the producers. You seem to be arguing with Chris as if he was using these quotes as proof that your score did not exist, or some similar case. In the light of this fact, I really don't see any of your arguments to really mean anything other than that you disagree with what those people said. So it would be your view that they were lying, misinformed, or simply ignorant of the fact of your TG score. Fair enough. I think that these may have said what they did because they knew that Billy had or would beat the score again.
Consider the fact that Billy beat the score live on May 7th 2004 before Steve's Funspot achievement and a lot of those quotes were from people at Funspot if I remember correctly, I could be mistaken. Do we know the actual time frame from start to finish when the film was actually being filmed?
The TG scoreboard is only as accurate as it can verify scores. One thing that has always been true, is that the TG scoreboard is not that accurate. (Forgive me TG enthusiasts) There are scores that are not submitted or accomplished before people even knew about TG. From the sounds of it, Steve, was putting up 900+ games and yet didn't know what the high score was on TG. The fact that Billy continued to up his score, and the fact that Steve technically had unofficial records and continued to up his score makes this a real rivalry between him and Billy.
If you saw that your TG score was taken down on May 7th 2004, and started submitting new scores and having them verified, I am sure that you would have played a role in the over all competition. And you are right, the interest grew when two players went back and forth like that. That was the interesting part. May I propose that since you did not attempt or accomplish this is the reason that history unfolded the way that you did.
Do you ever suppose that it was your ignorance, inaction, or inability in this regard that plays a role in this story as well? Your score of 1,034,700 on 2/24/2010 is many years too late. When did you find out that your score was beaten in 2004? Did you make attempts to get the record back? And most importantly, were you successful? I think that it would not be fair for you to compare yourself to Steve Wiebe in this regard. The Steve vs. Billy era was exciting for gamers and the growing interest exploded because of it. You were successful in beating Billy's score back in the early 80's, but you were not successful in going toe to toe with Billy in the same manner as Steve. I wonder when Billy's 1,047,200 verified on June 4th 2005 was actually accomplished.
Also, you compare TG with a patenting office. Well, look at it this way for a moment. Let's say that we know historically that Grey (was it) had invented the telephone first, but Gram got it officiated first. Then we would offer the accomplishment to both but to Grey first. I don't see any reason to doubt Steve's earlier scores, because it takes time to learn the game and at the point of KOK he was already improving his PB rather quickly. Also take a good look at the DK HSL, and compare that to TG. There are a lot of good scores that are not on TG, like Dean's 1.2M for instance. (Of course he already holds the record.) I think that the TG scoreboard has some meaning to it, but it is not a 100% representation of reality.
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Tim, just to let you know, I'm going to respond to this post, but not right away. I want to take a little time with it.
I'll hand it to you that you pointed out a few things where my argument was not as well-fortified and clarified as it could have been, but you definitely misunderstood me in other places (Corey pointed out an important one above), and overall I think you're still totally off your rocker on this subject.
I'll get to it.
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Billy has stated multiple times he did call me.......maybe you don't think Billy is a reliable source of info on the subject material but I assure you I am and Billy did in fact call me in 2000 to congratulate me as did Walter.as I stated
You yourself have said that you don't think he is a reliable source... but now you are saying he is? Which is it?
This is just a stupid comment!
Heads you win Tails I loose.......is that the Idea? I can see your partisian on the subject and I'm just wasting my time explaining even the most simple facts and concepts to you so I will no longer wast time responding to your "heads I win Tails I loose" trickery
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Tim, just to let you know, I'm going to respond to this post, but not right away. I want to take a little time with it.
I'll hand it to you that you pointed out a few things where my argument was not as well-fortified and clarified as it could have been, but you definitely misunderstood me in other places (Corey pointed out an important one above), and overall I think you're still totally off your rocker on this subject.
I'll get to it.
Go right a head write another and I will dismantle it with the same documented facts as I did your other. You can't polish a turd and that is exactly what you are doing in your rebuttals.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result............this is what you are doing defending KOK and you say I'm off my rocker? Please!
Looking foward to shredding another!
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Mitch, what's with this evil trickery of which Tim speaks ? :o
Hey, Tim, we don't blame, shame, or call names, sir. That is a good place to start. People respect calm, cool reasoning where the facts do speak for themselves without continually being colored by your emotions and perspectives.
I think that what Mitch is demonstrating as opposed to saying is that you have not really offered any evidence for some of your claims, you have offered reasoning with some ideas, unlike Chris' post which actually has quotations in it to support his view. In other words, offering this youtube video actually shows us that Billy said that he called you (or at least someone that sounds like Billy since it was a still photo), but in the KOK he actually said that no one else had been seen getting to the end of Donkey Kong (which could be an allusion to a live score, which would be true). So, does billy ever lie? And what evidence do you have, other than that you say so? because then we are back to your questioning Steve's say so for his earlier scores. It may very well be a fact, and you may well have evidence, but I think that is what Mitch may be attempting to do here. Correct me if I am wrong.
Tapping my fingers on the table, waiting for your response to my post.
P.S. What are you doing in these threads Tim, and what results are you expecting?
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Billy has stated multiple times he did call me.......maybe you don't think Billy is a reliable source of info on the subject material but I assure you I am and Billy did in fact call me in 2000 to congratulate me as did Walter.as I stated
You yourself have said that you don't think he is a reliable source... but now you are saying he is? Which is it?
This is just a stupid comment!
Heads you win Tails I loose.......is that the Idea? I can see your partisian on the subject and I'm just wasting my time explaining even the most simple facts and concepts to you so I will no longer wast time responding to your "heads I win Tails I loose" trickery
I's not trickery... maybe it just feels that way, because when one is caught in a contradiction it is a no-win situation. Somethings gotta give Tim. Avoiding the issue is an unwise choice and doesn't solve the problem.
Edit: Exactly Corey. Maybe it's the case that Billy is only reliable in one of these instances (or, more simply, only one source is true), but there needs to be evidence given to demonstrate that in one case he was honest/non-ignorant and in another he was the opposite -otherwise, it's a completely possible option that Billy is just trying to give BOTH 'documenters' what they want!
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So, the clique is ganging up on yet ANOTHER forum member already? Wow, it's amazing how quickly a nasty habit can emerge.
CHRISP SAYS: The fact of the matter is this: while the filmmakers didn't acknowledge you, the people in the scene didn't acknowledge you either, and that is, without a doubt, a major contributing factor for why the filmmakers made the determination that they made.
This is a truely massive assumption and is almost certainly completely wrong. You have absolutely no idea what was left on the editing room floor and I can pretty much guarantee you that Tim's name was mentioned on camera by someone at some point (and probably a lot).
As a matter of fact, if the movie is watched with a careful eye for this sort of stuff, there is a rather important scene where Steve hits a killscreen live at Funspot and in the immediate aftermath Brian Kuh gives sort of an off the cuff commentary about what just happened and how significant the moment is in classic gaming. Do you remember what he said? He said something to the effect of:
"So with that game, Steve is now the THIRD person verified to have reached the Donkey Kong killscreen."
The filmmakers originally put a graphic over that scene that said ("Actually, Steve is the 2nd"), which was later changed. Why was it changed? Because Tim's killscreen score was already a verified TG score at the time.
Now let's go deeper. Why would Brian have made a statement like that with no further explanation? I am betting that he probably said this assuming that everyone, including the viewers, would already know exactly what he was talking about! Meaning, there were probably dozens of conversations on camera about the timeline, about Tim's score, about how Tim had been the WR holder until recently (at the time of the filming, Billy had already regained the WR with a score of around 930k), and so on and so forth -- Brian probably didn't want to belabor the obvious ... except that ALL of that was cut by the filmmakers. However, they couldn't figure out a way to cut out Brian's reference to Steve being the 3rd without losing that very important scene entirely -- so they clumsily put a graphic over the scene and literally changed the story.
CHRISP SAYS: The experts on the subject of Donkey Kong, especially Brian Kuh, always referred to Billy Mitchell as the reigning champion and maintained that his unrivaled skill put him on top of the record holder chart."
Again, at the time of the filming, these were actually accurate statements from Brian because Billy had the 930k score recently verified. At some other point, the filmmakers probably asked Brian a question specifically about Billy and he happened to frame his answer with respect to Billy's old 874k score that many players, including himself, had been trying to beat for a long time. It's possible that in the very next breath Brian may have gone on to mention about how Tim came along and beat that score and how Billy beat it back and yada yada yada, the filmmakers cut the exact snippet that best fit their story and left the rest on the cutting room floor.
With respect to Greg Bond's quote -- Again, that was in reference to Billy's 933k WR score. That is actually shown in "The King of Con", which Tim has referenced -- it shows Steve on top with 985k, then Billy next at 933k, then Tim at 879k, straight from a TG website circa the date of KOK filming.
Same with the Roy Shildt quote, which is accurate for the same reasons -- referencing the 933k WR score.
It would be helpful if somebody would repost (or even sticky) the link to that timeline website that somebody posted within the last few days -- it gave a lot of excellent details and you could see how a lot of stuff with respect to the scores and the verifications and the filming were all overlapping quite a bit.
COREY SAYS: If you saw that your TG score was taken down on May 7th 2004, and started submitting new scores and having them verified, I am sure that you would have played a role in the over all competition. And you are right, the interest grew when two players went back and forth like that. That was the interesting part. May I propose that since you did not attempt or accomplish this is the reason that history unfolded the way that you did.
Do you ever suppose that it was your ignorance, inaction, or inability in this regard that plays a role in this story as well? Your score of 1,034,700 on 2/24/2010 is many years too late. When did you find out that your score was beaten in 2004? Did you make attempts to get the record back? And most importantly, were you successful?
Corey, this is totally and completely unfair and is a massive misunderstanding of the timeline of events and the manner in which TG was operating at the time.
Billy had only very recently beaten Tim's score with his own score of around 933k when a LOT of the filming of very key scenes were already underway. Billy's score hit the database in May, 2004. Then, all summer long, Steve sent in several different tapes with different WR scores to TG -- none of which were even looked at during this time. What makes you think that if Tim sent a tape in during this time that it would have been any different? Later on, in August, 2004, the players visited Steve's house with the so-called "break in". This event is actually what prompted the filmmakers to begin filming, or at least to begin focusing on this particular story, and filming ensued very quickly after that. After the crew had been filming for a bit, Steve went to Funspot in June, 2005 and by then the Billy vs. Steve storyline was already decided. Steve's videotaped submissions had gone until November, 2004 before being rejected -- nearly 6 months after being submitted on possibly TG's highest priority game at that time. Just to demonstrate how the phrase "moving at a snail's pace" was greatly OVERestimating how fast TG was able to do ANYthing at that time. So, to say that in the midst of this it was somehow Tim's responsibility to jump into the fray and become "active" in the "competition" is just borderline ludicrous. There's really almost nothing he could have done.
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Now, with all of that being said ...
Tim, you are STILL not due any money and have NO valid claims for any monetary damages suffered as a result of your side of the story being left out of the film.
The fact is, Billy WAS the WR holder in 2004 and the story was about one specific challenger against the champion, plain and simple. I think that the timing of events was unfortunate for you because, like I said above, you really didn't have any opportunity to get back into the competition while there was a story being done about it. But mostly that's just bad luck and is not anyone's fault really. Sure, the filmmakers massively edited the film in order to tell the story that they wanted to tell and in my opinion (as I pointed out above) you can see this clearly in literally every single quote that comes out of somebody's mouth throughout the entire movie -- it's like they were saying something in the breath just before or just after what's actually in the movie that didn't fit with the story so the filmmakers carefully cut all of those sentences out so what we're left with is extremely disjointed one-liners taken totally out of context and pasted together to create an entertaining story about a challenger vs. the champion.
Really, despite the fact that everyone seems to be needlessly attacking you on these forums right now, which I find to be borderline embarrassing, you honestly should consider taking the core of their advice which is to try to let go of your disagreements with the people who were involved in the film and just join in with today's community where we now have a relatively large amount of really good people sharing a passion and a hobby that we enjoy ... for the FUN of it! Make an effort to come out to the live events where you WOULD be a minor celebrity and tons of people would be very interested in speaking with you personally. Create a FUN quest for yourself to take down both Billy's and Steve's scores and getting your name listed above both of those guys on the arcade scoreboard again -- stream your attempts to do so, a lot of us would cheer you on in such a quest!
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I'm starting to feel like a broken record at this point, but EVERYONE on this forum seriously needs to RELAX! STOP BICKERING! You are RUINING a good thing, and that is no joke.
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Corey, this is totally and completely unfair and is a massive misunderstanding of the timeline of events and the manner in which TG was operating at the time.
Billy had only very recently beaten Tim's score with his own score of around 933k when a LOT of the filming of very key scenes were already underway. Billy's score hit the database in May, 2004. Then, all summer long, Steve sent in several different tapes with different WR scores to TG -- none of which were even looked at during this time. What makes you think that if Tim sent a tape in during this time that it would have been any different? Later on, in August, 2004, the players visited Steve's house with the so-called "break in". This event is actually what prompted the filmmakers to begin filming, or at least to begin focusing on this particular story, and filming ensued very quickly after that. After the crew had been filming for a bit, Steve went to Funspot in June, 2005 and by then the Billy vs. Steve storyline was already decided. Steve's videotaped submissions had gone until November, 2004 before being rejected -- nearly 6 months after being submitted on possibly TG's highest priority game at that time. Just to demonstrate how the phrase "moving at a snail's pace" was greatly OVERestimating how fast TG was able to do ANYthing at that time. So, to say that in the midst of this it was somehow Tim's responsibility to jump into the fray and become "active" in the "competition" is just borderline ludicrous. There's really almost nothing he could have done.
Dean, I made no attempt at being unfair at all. I had assumed that since Tim had already a verified score that it would be that much easier to get through the process again. Besides, up until May, 2004 Tim had the official TG world record, why wouldn't they accept another score from him. I don't mean to be unfair at all. And it is possible that I am misunderstanding the timeline to some extent and what was going on with TG at the time. There could be other factors of which I am not aware. I appreciate you sharing and correcting me on this point. In my post, I did craft this in the form of a question, with which I was hoping to gather clarification. I never for a moment thought that there was no opportunity for a person to drop a quarter in their machine and get a new score and have the tape copied, and one sent to TG, and to have this not be verified. Though it sounds like you know some things that I don't.
I actually appreciate your post here Dean. I have been trying to calm things down so that we can actually discuss these issues. But for awhile I began to feel that the forum was starting to fill up with these kinds of things and that it was not good. I originally proposed a course of action to help steer the forum back on course, and have us discuss what was going on, but that was not seen as favorable by all. Trying to keep the peace and keep the forum free from venomous posts and vindictive name calling and insults is rather challenging. Just be warned that any negativity that you have sensed here has had an obvious source.
I hope that Tim and everyone takes your advice Dean, I really do. I am on board! :D
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I'm starting to feel like a broken record at this point, but EVERYONE on this forum seriously needs to RELAX! STOP BICKERING! You are RUINING a good thing, and that is no joke.
Dean, I know you don't post here often, and not really sure how often you read the past posts beyond this one, but I encourage you to go thru the countless number of posts/responses from Tim (most hidden inside others' quote boxes). I feel that logic and facts are pointless now. Even if you just listen and sympathize/empathize that appears to still get yourself an attack response. I am not an advocate of the term clique, club, ganging up,etc... this forum is what it always was. A place to discuss DK. Lately we have seen the forum flooded with attacks and arguing, and all I see is regular members trying to come to a conclusion to have things return to normal.
BTW, on a side note, you may want to update your signature, 1.2M is quite an accomplishement :)
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Dean, in case you're not aware, the post you are replying to here is actually a chopped-up response to the original here:
https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=568.msg10816#msg10816 (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=568.msg10816#msg10816)
You should check out that discussion, and my post (and follow-up posts) in their original form and context.
I have been civil with Tim throughout, and Tim has been civil with me. In fact, he is clearly having fun with it. I (speaking for myself at least) am not trying to chase him off.
Onto your points:
We've discussed Kuh's "third player" line in that thread.
Kuh was, according to the producers in the audio commentary, talking about himself. Robbie Lakeman corroborates, from his own personal communication with Brian, that this may be the case, since Brian claims to have killscreened in 2000.
The exact quote from the commentary during that scene is: "Brian Kuh claims that he has gotten to the kill screen on his own... which is why he said 'third' there."
That doesn't mean it's true, but it is a possibility, with plausible grounds. Nobody will ever know for sure except Brian.
When Kuh, and others, refer to Billy as "the champion", yes, they may have been referring to the brief 2004 933K de-facto reclamation.
But for your assertion that Shildt and Bond were referring to the '04/'05 record tussling, as opposed to Steve's original 2003 victory over Billy's 1982 score, I disagree. Look at their wording carefully. It just doesn't support that interpretation.
Roy: "That was the last world record that Bill ever had. That was the last one to go. He had five world records in 1985, he had the Donkey Kong, and then Steve Wiebe took it away."
Roy is, first of all, speaking in a way that suggests a longer length of time, an era that came to an end, not to some back-and-forth that was happening over the course of two years.
Second, Wiebe beat Billy's Junior record before he beat the DK record, which was Sczerby's when Wiebe first beat it. So *Junior* was actually the last one to go, because DK had already been lost to Sczerby.
If Roy was cognizant of the fact that Billy had already lost the DK record to Sczerby, why would he refer to DK as "the last one to go?" Or a very recently reclaimed record as "the last one to go?"
Greg: "Steve deserves a lot of credit for that because he also... He also broke the record on Donkey Kong Jr. So he--he took two--he took two of Billy's titles, like, right away from him. And l don't mean to sound, you know, crude or anything. But he did. He did. Officially, he did."
Again, Greg really sounds like he is speaking longer-term; about the reign that (he thinks) went from 1982 to 2003. Not about this 2004 stuff, where Billy held the record for literally less than a month before more Wiebe submissions came in.
If King of Con actually contains genuine additional *sourced* details about these quotes, and isn't just Dwayne ranting and speculating, please let me know.
Is it really that hard to believe that these two, and many others, weren't necessarily up to speed on everything? That they might have missed, or simply forgotten, that Sczerby, a total stranger to them, had broken the DK record before the much more up-close-and-personal Steve/Billy situation came along?
Again, DK did not have some elevated stance in the gaming world until the 2003-2005 hullabaloo (and of course the movie) brought it into everyone's field of vision.
Your assertion that Sczerby was indeed being talked up by the gamers is no less speculative than my assertion that he was not.
Tim's name was "probably mentioned on camera, probably a lot"? How can you possibly "pretty much guarantee" that?
In one of the follow-up posts from the thread I linked above, I attached Mruczek's detailed report on Steve's original 2003 submission, the one that beat Tim. *The report does not even mention Tim's name*, yet it mentions Billy's several times, and conveys a strong sense that Billy is and was the real top dog in the game. Even Steve is quoted saying that he suspects Billy of having a secret 950K-range score.
Anyway, to get into the drama/"clique" subject, your talk about "ganging up" is unfair and underinformed (not to mention, I have to say, more than a little condescendingly paternalistic in tone), and comes from someone who spends less time on this forum than the people who are on both ends of the "ganging up."
It's hypocritical of you to come into the shoutbox tonight, sanctimoniously complain about the drama, then jump into this thread and make an agitating post that is, in tone and content, completely interchangeable with the rest of the "drama" posts.
As Dave just said, you might actually want to read a little more of Tim's abusive, repetitive, completely non-productive ranting, and how many attempts were made to be sympathetic prior to where things are now, before concluding that the forum is somehow "ganging up on him." He ganged up on us first.
If you were more active here and more aware of the texture of various relationships, you might have a better understanding of why this has been happening to certain posters.
In every case, with the possible exception of Brian Allen, the "victims" have been antagonistic and disruptive, in one case (George Leutz) willfully, aggressively, and gleefully so. (The strange thing, in George's case, is that nobody even resisted him. He just suddenly decided, of his own accord, that he was done.)
Personally, I am mystified by how tolerated he was. In fact, you even said yourself some days ago that his "middle finger to Phil" stunt with Richie actually deserved more of a backlash than it got.
So you tell us, is the "clique" being too zealous, or not zealous enough?
I don't understand your position on troublemakers, and nobody has been "chased off" who wasn't one. Are we supposed to roll over and allow inveterate, unrepentant ranters, liars, braggarts, and trolls to run amok, for "fear" that they won't stick around?
To put this in terms of a situation that you are more familiar with, would you say that Jon Petric is being "ganged up on" at CAG, or has he made that bed himself? And would you ever even suggest that you haven't been one of the most active (and in fact one of the more hostile) parties in that particular drama?
You ended your post by exhorting everybody to "relax." This is very ironic, in that you are frequently one of the least "relaxed", and most insistent, in an argument, and the post itself was rather hostile.
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Dude, I just realized how this needs to end: We need to get Mruczek on DKF!!! :D
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You know how it can easily end, ignore it. I've read about 5 sentences from this whole thread...enough to realize I don't want to read anymore.
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So you tell us, is the "clique" being too zealous, or not zealous enough?
I already have told you, but I will tell you again. The most active members of this forum are being TOO zealous. Although it's likely unintentional, to the person that it's happening too, they ARE being ganged up upon. The reason for my post is that I've tried 3 or 4 different times now over the last couple of months to point this out to the active members here and the situation is rapidly getting worse instead of better, which is frustrating. I KNOW where that leads. All you have to do is open up a browser and pull up the ghost town that is cagdc to see what happens when the members constantly bicker about bullshit and the moderators overcompensate by holding their own site hostage with overcensoring and denial of access. I would hate to have to quote my own words here 6 months from now with a big "I told you so". That would be tragic.
To put this in terms of a situation that you are more familiar with, would you say that Jon Petric is being "ganged up on" at CAG, or has he made that bed himself? And would you ever even suggest that you haven't been one of the most active (and in fact one of the more hostile) parties in that particular drama?
This is a terrible comparison. First of all, John is not being ganged up on. Pretty much the only person who was coming after him in that thread was me. And I encourage you to read THAT whole thread, from the beginning, noting the timeframes involved. For a period of YEARS (and NOT days or weeks), John was completely over the top in attacking me specifically. I tend to let a few small borderline things go when I see this happening, but when I am outright attacked and wrongfully so in a forum, I will ALWAYS respond with a DISproportionate response. If someone puts a knife to my throat, I will respond with a nuclear bomb. I absolutely will not stand for being personally attacked. So, that is another situation entirely and has no bearing here.
As for the quotes by various players in the movie and what they "meant" at the time ... fine, you might be right ... and you also might be wrong ...
If you were more active here and more aware of the texture of various relationships, you might have a better understanding of why this has been happening to certain posters.
Once again, this is completely inaccurate and totally off base. I am actually extremely active in this community, probably to a fault. I have spent WAY more time than I should reading posts in these forums -- I have likely read a VAST majority of everything that has ever been posted here. I just don't post as often as other people because I tend to avoid posting in these sorts of threads (although obviously I am posting in this one now). I also avoid posting mindless "LOL" sorts of posts and would rather create posts that are actually about the game that this forum is about, or about an event or someone's stream or something actually RELAVENT to why we have this forum in the first place. If you are just looking at my post count and assuming that I am not an active member, that is pretty weak.
Keep in mind I'm not trying to single you out specifically Chris. I think you're a great guy and an extremely valuable contributer to the community. I just happened to pull some quotes that came from you as examples to demonstrate my point that there's an overall problem here. I don't intend to become the enemy around here but I WILL point out when something is wrong regardless of who is on what side or which friends' feathers I happen to ruffle in the process.
If you honestly think that I'm now contributing to the problem because I am now posting in this thread, then *facepalm* I guess the point has been missed. Again.
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Pardon my French but I think a lot of people are getting fed up of this bullshit.
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Dean, here is that link you requested: http://superbunker.com/resources/dkt/. (http://superbunker.com/resources/dkt/.) I have also thought a lot of the players comments fit along with the "933K in 2004" context. Of course, I could be wrong but that would help clear up why they would speak the way they did. I will say this in another place in response to Tim, but I think that the KOK would have been just as fun even if all of it was styled concerning the 933K game leading to the back and forth. It may not have had the same force but it sill would have been interesting.
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I always wondered why Billy took 4 years to take the record back from Tim.
I look at the whole thing like a long race that Billy was always winning, and along came Tim and passed Billy up, but only took the lead by a small amount, so Billy brushed it off like "I can take that back in a second, no threat here" then out of no where sprinting by is this Wiebe guy who darts pass them, and Billy turns on the jets to catch back up, and voila! KoK has a story on it's hands. At no time was it a concern about who was ahead when Wiebe darted passed, they were practically side-by-side.
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In all fairness, the community is not ganging up on anyone. We welcomed Tim to the community and encouraged him to be a part of the community. Then the first thing he posts is about how people who are just going for a kill screen are posers. That accounts for a good portion of the community. He has been negative from the beginning and people are just tired of it. If he is seen as being ganged up on then it is his fault for attacking and insulting the community in the first place.