Donkey Kong Forum
General Donkey Kong Discussion => General Donkey Kong Discussion => Topic started by: homerwannabee on March 27, 2013, 07:24:25 am
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Yeah, I have a feeling that either A) I am going to get flamed for that comment, or B) This post will sink to the bottom not being answered.
About a year and a half ago I tried to lay claim to the all around greatest of Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Junior, and Donkey Kong 3, and got a firm rebuttal against said proclamation. But then my high score was in the 200k range for Donkey Kong, 1.161 million for Donkey Kong Junior, and 3.538 million range for Donkey Kong 3.
Well since then a lot of things have changed, and I have drastically improved all of my scores for all 3 games. I now have a 457k score for Donkey Kong, a 1.313 million score for Donkey Kong Junior, and a somewhat absurd 8.7 million score for Donkey Kong 3.
Now here is the surprising thing. I am less confident in proclaiming that I am the all around greatest at these 3 games. A 457k score for Donkey Kong is decent, but I feel like I should at least hit the killscreen before I should be able to say such a thing. We all know the most important score of the 3 Kongs is the Donkey Kong score by far! So while mathmatically I could make a claim of being the all around best of all 3 Kongs(Percentage of all 3 scores I am, and percentage of 2 of the best 3 scores I am as well), it falls hallow because by far my weakest score of the 3 is also the strongest score of the 3.
So what do you guys think if you dare. Do I need to get a killscreen to lay such claims? Do I need a million point score, or even a 1.1 million score?
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I think you could easily make the claim right here and now. I would agree.
The problem is DK3. There's little competition around it, and I can't think of anybody besides yourself, and perhaps Brian Allen, who plays all three games at a serious level.
At this point there are a few players at the elite level of both DK and DK Jr.: Mark, Dean, Steve Wiebe, and Billy Mitchell come to mind. If one of them took up DK3 as well you'd have some formidable competition.
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I think you could easily make the claim right here and now. I would agree.
The problem is DK3. There's little competition around it, and I can't think of anybody besides yourself, and perhaps Brian Allen, who plays all three games at a serious level.
At this point there are a few players at the elite level of both DK and DK Jr.: Mark, Dean, Steve Wiebe, and Billy Mitchell come to mind. If one of them took up DK3 as well you'd have some formidable competition.
There are a couple of other names that are known to be at least good at all 3 Kongs. Steve Wagner has a 900K game at Donkey Kong, an over 1 million game at Donkey Kong Junior, and at least a 1.5 million game on I think easy settings on Donkey Kong 3. I think Steve could easily go higher on DK3 because he usually quits his games before losing all his men when it comes to Donkey Kong 3.
Ben Falls has a million point donkey kong game, a Donkey Kong Junior Killscreen, and actually got 1.3 million on Donkey Kong 3 easy settings in 1 hours time.
Dean Saglio as well as being the Donkey Kong record holder is also very good at Donkey Kong Junior. I think he has a 800,000 point Donkey Kong Junior game, and a 1.1 million Donkey Kong 3 game on medium MAME settings.
So yeah, they do exist
One more thing. Before I came along in the scene there were 3 different people who were seriously thinking about going after the Donkey Kong 3 record. They stopped pursuing the record for various reasons, and the former record holder contemplated getting the record back until I played in front of him. That for whatever reason seemed to kill his ambitions in the game.
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OK. So it looks like those three are good examples of contenders.
The problem is being able to compare the scores of the three games, since they're all so different. I don't know how one would go about doing that...
Obviously you have them beat at DK Jr. and buried at DK3, so the question is whether their DK games balance it out. Hmm.
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Well, actually, George doesn't have Mark beat on DKjr.
Are TG settings for DK3 the 'easy' settings? I'm not familiar enough with the game to know, but those are the settings Ben has been playing on. It only took him like 3-4 days to get up to 1.3m/hr pace on DK3 on TG settings, so I imagine if he wanted to he could get very good at marathoning it too.
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Well, actually, George doesn't have Mark beat on DKjr.
Are TG settings for DK3 the 'easy' settings? I'm not familiar enough with the game to know, but those are the settings Ben has been playing on. It only took him like 3-4 days to get up to 1.3m/hr pace on DK3 on TG settings, so I imagine if he wanted to he could get very good at marathoning it too.
Easy settings are not Twin Galaxies settings. Twin Galaxies settings are two notches ahead of easy settings. The 1.3 million is not on Twin Galaxies settings. Also he played this game last tournament, and tried to prepare for it as well, and so the 3-4 days thing is a little off.
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Have you watched Ben play on twitch? He was pretty insistent that he was on TG settings, and he got over 1.3m/hr probably a half dozen times while I was watching. He may have played the game a little bit before this last CADGC tourney when he started to practice for it, but I can at least say he got *significantly* better in just a matter of days. When he started I don't believe he was even making it the whole hour. If Ben sees this, he can correct me if I am wrong on anything. I'm almost certain Ben would be good at marathoning this game if he put some more time into it (maybe less risky pressing would have to be practiced for the marathon -since he was playing hard for the hour score).
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All my tournament practice sessions were on default, which is not the TG setting. I played one game offline on medium difficulty just to see how much harder it was and got 1.3M. The difference is definitely noticeable.
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Ah... I was confused then. I keep assuming that default settings would be TG settings. Why is this not so for DK3?
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Ah... I was confused then. I keep assuming that default settings would be TG settings. Why is this not so for DK3?
I talked to Mark Alpiger about this, and this is what he told me. He basically said that the manual does not state whether easy settings are default settings, and that usually video games back in the day were defaulted to medium.
Here is where it gets super confusing. MAME Twin Galaxies settings is NOT Arcade Twin galaxies settings. Arcade settings are on what MAME would call Hard. Medium, and what MAME would call hard are much harder to tell a difference, but a difference is still there. It's about a 3 to 2 scoring ratio difference while MAME medium, and MAME easy is about a 2 to 1 ratio difference in scoring.
Now here is where I stand on this. I would really would wish the settings were on easy settings. These machines are old, and I worry that they may not fully recognize when a switch has been turned on or not. Also the dip switches are super small, and I could see someone getting setting g(medium) confused with setting h. Part of me wonders if the score I set at the Kong Off II was actually on setting g. I was practicing before hand, and the highest I got on Keyboard on MAME hard was 6.1 million. Yes, when I play with the joystick I tend to do much better, but I wasn't expecting it to be that much better.
Also when I did tournament settings the next day it seemed harder to me. This could be attributed to the fact I was exhausted from playing this game six and a half straight hours with no break whatsoever I even asked Jourdan if he was positive the marathon settings were on the correct settings, and he seemed super sure about it, and so I left it at that. Also, I told them before the tournament to make sure the Donkey Kong 3 settings were correct. So I did it once before, and once after which puts my mind somewhat at ease. Truth be told, maybe part of myself wants to prove myself again. It's still hard for even me to believe that I put a score like that up.
If the settings for Donkey Kong 3 were on easy I wouldn't have to have any crazy doubts in my mind about this. I really could see in the future someone playing this on the wrong easier settings. So personally I think the record should be moved to easy.
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TY for mentioning me among these DK giants
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TY Chris
George needs to get his dk score alittle higher to be in that higher class for Dk Series players
But i've been there recently my self.
George will get there it's just a matter of time . I belive in him.
I think you could easily make the claim right here and now. I would agree.
The problem is DK3. There's little competition around it, and I can't think of anybody besides yourself, and perhaps Brian Allen, who plays all three games at a serious level.
At this point there are a few players at the elite level of both DK and DK Jr.: Mark, Dean, Steve Wiebe, and Billy Mitchell come to mind. If one of them took up DK3 as well you'd have some formidable competition.
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TY Chris
George needs to get his dk score alittle higher to be in that higher class for Dk Series players
But i've been there recently my self.
George will get there it's just a matter of time . I belive in him.
I think you could easily make the claim right here and now. I would agree.
The problem is DK3. There's little competition around it, and I can't think of anybody besides yourself, and perhaps Brian Allen, who plays all three games at a serious level.
At this point there are a few players at the elite level of both DK and DK Jr.: Mark, Dean, Steve Wiebe, and Billy Mitchell come to mind. If one of them took up DK3 as well you'd have some formidable competition.
Really, so your saying that your 687k Donkey Kong score, your 1.073 million Donkey Kong Junior score, and your 1.7 million Donkey Kong 3 score makes you in a higher class than my 457k Donkey Kong score, my 1.313 million Donkey Kong Junior score, and my 8.7 million Donkey Kong 3 Arcade score on harder settings me, and thusly makes me in a lower class than you.
Never knew that 230,000 points in difference in a non Donkey Kong killscreen game was that major.
Edit:
So yeah, you are definitely the first to even suggest that I don't even belong in the higher class of Donkey Kong series players. Not being the best as an argument, I can understand, but to say I am not even in the upper class of Donkey Kong Series players seems to be almost an insult to me.
Double Edit:
Since you are a Washington native, maybe I can give you an example. This would be like saying that Ichiro Suzuki should not be in the Hall of Fame because he doesn't have a lot of Home Runs, and Walks despite the fact that he is one of the greatest defensive Right Fielders of all time. Has a .322 batting Average, exceptional at stealing bases, and has 10 consecutive 200 hit seasons. Something that has never been done before.
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I say this to you as a friend .
I allso said the samething on CAG Before when this was posted.
Theres allways the topic what if DK3 had a KS? Theres no way your getting 8 millon.
Or if DK,DKJR Gave free guys for every 30k up to a Millon points without a KS?
I'm not saying your not an amazing Player.
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The way i see the top list of DK Series players
1 Marky D
2 Steve Wagner
3 Brian Allen
4 Ben Falls
5 Hank
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This is too funny! :D
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The way i see the top list of DK Series players
1 Marky D
2 Steve Wagner
3 Brian Allen
4 Ben Falls
5 Hank
I don't think Hank has ever worked with Stanley directly....and ty for everything
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first off
I don'nt see what is soo funny Ben?
I agree Steve
Hank has never played DK3 for what i've heard of .
I just could'nt ignore his other scores in dk and dkjr.
He had to be on the list!The way i see the top list of DK Series players
1 Marky D
2 Steve Wagner
3 Brian Allen
4 Ben Falls
5 Hank
I don't think Hank has ever worked with Stanley directly....and ty for everything
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I say this to you as a friend .
I allso said the samething on CAG Before when this was posted.
Theres allways the topic what if DK3 had a KS? Theres no way your getting 8 millon.
Or if DK,DKJR Gave free guys for every 30k up to a Millon points without a KS?
I'm not saying your not an amazing Player.
First off, did you forget Brian I have the Donkey Kong 3 5 man record that is 1,303,000? That took me an hour and six minutes. So arguments about it being too long are none existent. And the 5 man record doesn't give any extra men. Just 5 men.
Second off, let's ignore Donkey Kong 3 for a second. Your 687,100 Donkey Kong score plus your 1,073,800 Donkey Kong Junior score equals a total of 1,760,900 points. My 1,313,800 Donkey Kong Junior plus my 457,400 Donkey Kong score equals 1,771,200 points. Yes, that's right Brian, my combined Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong Junior scores are better than your combined Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong Junior scores. So when we put Donkey Kong 3 in the mix it should be plain as day you are not better than me at these 3 games.
Third off, Ben Falls has a higher combined Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong Junior score than you as well, and recently won the CAG tournament with a 1.3 million Donkey Kong 3 1 hour score.
Fourth off, you had to pick someone who doesn't even play the game as the number 1 spot. This is not who is the all around best at Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong Junior. This is who is the all around best at Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong Junior, and Donkey Kong 3.
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Brian, I literally can't believe your list. Just in shock. You can't be serious? can you? Oh wait, you must only be counting things done on marp ::)
George, I'm just gonna be bluntly honest, because I think you can take it and it won't make you go retire or something (*cough* Brian *cough*) -you'll continue to push to become better regardless. When you make a thread like this it comes across as very desperate and arrogant -even if you actually are the best all-around DK player. People get turned off, even if you ask this question and are just sincerely curious. My suggestion is to emulate people like Hank, Dean, and Steve Weibe in how they simply let the recognition come their way without seeming to ask for it.
But, to still answer your question, in my personal opinion, if you can put up 1.1m on DK, you'll pretty much have that title locked up for a very long time (unless either Mark goes nuts on DK3 or Dean actually finishes a DKjr game and also goes nuts on Dk3). As of right now, it is a little bit iffy who is actually best because of the nature of the 3 games and also the nature of how each player tries to play each game (e.g. the only reason Dean doesn't have crazy scores is because he is devoting so much time to DK and when he does play the other games he point presses so much, so it skews the data).
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Mitch waht can'nt you belive about my list ? That i put my self 3rd?
Back of my TG Trading listings 610,900 On Dk Broke this live on Twitch last Saturday 687,100 *Who Retired*???? I love you Uncle Ray.
DKJR 1,073,800 Kill screen.
DK3 1,596,000
I'm only 313k away from making History
First person to get a Millon on all 3 DK Series games.
Brian, I literally can't believe your list. Just in shock. You can't be serious? can you? Oh wait, you must only be counting things done on marp ::)
George, I'm just gonna be bluntly honest, because I think you can take it and it won't make you go retire or something (*cough* Brian *cough*) -you'll continue to push to become better regardless. When you make a thread like this it comes across as very desperate and arrogant -even if you actually are the best all-around DK player. People get turned off, even if you ask this question and are just sincerely curious. My suggestion is to emulate people like Hank, Dean, and Steve Weibe in how they simply let the recognition come their way without seeming to ask for it.
But, to still answer your question, in my personal opinion, if you can put up 1.1m on DK, you'll pretty much have that title locked up for a very long time (unless either Mark goes nuts on DK3 or Dean actually finishes a DKjr game and also goes nuts on Dk3). As of right now, it is a little bit iffy who is actually best because of the nature of the 3 games and also the nature of how each player tries to play each game (e.g. the only reason Dean doesn't have crazy scores is because he is devoting so much time to DK and when he does play the other games he point presses so much, so it skews the data).
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When you make a thread like this it comes across as very desperate and arrogant -even if you actually are the best all-around DK player. People get turned off, even if you ask this question and are just sincerely curious. My suggestion is to emulate people like Hank, Dean, and Steve Weibe in how they simply let the recognition come their way without seeming to ask for it.
This. (As Mitch says...)
Plus, just remember, the root title in this is "Donkey Kong", the first, the original. You have to master or at least killscreen the 1st title before you even begin to make a claim on all 3.
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Brian, at the very least, I can *not* believe you have Ben and George lower than you, and Dean is apparently lower than Hank...
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George would be higher then Dean.
I'm just factoring in all 3 games
Me and Steve Wagner are about the same on both DKJR and DK3
Just factored in his DK Score is higher then mine .
I know Ben and Hank are great players on everything they play so i added them onto the list.
If i'm wrong I'm only Human and everyone thinks differently .
At least I had the nerve to post what i thought and a list for it.
*BTW WHO IS RETIRED MITCH?????????*Brian, at the very least, I can *not* believe you have Ben and George lower than you, and Dean is apparently lower than Hank...
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Supposedly, you were 'retired' from streaming for about 5 days.
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I'm still retired from that TY very much
I only did a broadcast in Memory of my Uncle that was Murdered Last Thursday night.. He was shot in the head by his own Son.
Walk in my shoes for Min O.k.??????????
People continue to jump all over me for Dumb $hit all the time.... I'm starting to feel like Rudy.... Boy i should shoot my self in the head.
being Retired from Streaming does not mean i'm retired from playing Period... Wish people would get that straight in there head.
Nothing i have said is Negtive towards anyone.. But it keeps coming off this way..
Everyone thinks differently
If you have a different list .. Post it
Feedoom of Speech.. I'm just using .. Don'nt hate the Poster .. Just play the F-CKING game.
Supposedly, you were 'retired' from streaming for about 5 days.
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Is there a problem here?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_oQPm6ryPEz4/S8YJufoDGpI/AAAAAAAABHs/5v2-6eySwZg/s1600/robocop-unicorn-blundrebuss+copy.jpg)
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boy you would come in here posting this huh?
I swear.Is there a problem here?
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_oQPm6ryPEz4/S8YJufoDGpI/AAAAAAAABHs/5v2-6eySwZg/s1600/robocop-unicorn-blundrebuss+copy.jpg)
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I think Ross's computer might have been hijacked again.
I approve of that post either way.
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nope he is allways doing this Rainbows Crap
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Wow, this thread just became surreal in a hurry. BTW sorry about the circumstances surrounding your uncle. I had no idea he was murdered.
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nope he is allways doing this Rainbows Crap
Am I the best all around doer of Rainbow Crap?
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nope he is allways doing this Rainbows Crap
Am I the best all around doer of Rainbow Crap?
hahahah... this thread is getting pretty good
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Thats for sure
nope he is allways doing this Rainbows Crap
Am I the best all around doer of Rainbow Crap?
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Brian, you know I am sorry to hear about your uncle, as I was one of the first to be concerned for you on FB (which I genuinely was, and am). However, you were already considering returning in order to appease your DK 'students' as you put it -even before circumstances took a turn for the worst. Just seems like you 1) quit streaming for a petty reason in the first place, 2) publicly sobbed about it incessantly, then, lastly 3) decided to have your cake and eat it too by coming back (which it seemed like you would have anyway, even without doing a memorial stream for your uncle) after only like 5 days, once everyone and their mother knew how much you wanted viewers.
If I had to make a list (which is tough, since I know my knowledge is inaccurate on some people's scores and abilities) it would be more or less close to this:
DK GOD #0: Allen Staal (You love eet?!)
1. Mark Kiehl
2. Dean Saglio
3. George Riley
4. Ben Falls
5. Steve Wagner
6. Billy Mitchell
7. Steve Wiebe
8. Hank Chien
9. Ike Hall
10. Donald Hayes
11. George Leutz ;D
12. Brian Allen
13. Dwayne Richards
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Brian, you know I am sorry to hear about your uncle, as I was one of the first to be concerned for you on FB (which I genuinely was, and am). However, you were already considering returning in order to appease your DK 'students' as you put it -even before circumstances took a turn for the worst. Just seems like you 1) quit streaming for a petty reason in the first place, 2) publicly sobbed about it incessantly, then, lastly 3) decided to have your cake and eat it too by coming back (which it seemed like you would have anyway, even without doing a memorial stream for your uncle) after only like 5 days, once everyone and their mother knew how much you wanted viewers.
If I had to make a list (which is tough, since I know my knowledge is inaccurate on some people's scores and abilities) it would be more or less close to this:
DK GOD #0: Allen Staal (You love eet?!)
1. Mark Kiehl
2. Dean Saglio
3. George Riley
4. Ben Falls
5. Steve Wagner
6. Billy Mitchell
7. Steve Wiebe
8. Hank Chien
9. Ike Hall
10. Donald Hayes
11. George Leutz ;D
12. Brian Allen
13. Dwayne Richards
OK, you guys are Kiehling me with this Mark Kiehl being 1st. Look I have no problems with Steve Wagner, Ben Falls, and Dean Saglio being first. But am I missing something? Does Mark Kiehl even play this game?
Heck, I'll even be honest. Hank Chien, Billy Mitchell, Steve Wiebe, and Mark Kiehl could ALL get a million on Twin Galaxies Marathon settings if they simply focused on the game for a months time or less. But the fact is they really don't play this game. None of them. I think it should be a requirement that you somewhat know how to play this game.
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I was teasing this becouse they where wanting me to play them.
Your list is interesting Mitch
you Put Steve Wiebe and Billy M, and Hank ,Dean,
I know the George L in this list is a complete Joke.
Before me when they have
no scores for DK3
I tryed for people that had played most games and had get scores in them.
You know if Hank played DK3 a great score would happen.Brian, you know I am sorry to hear about your uncle, as I was one of the first to be concerned for you on FB (which I genuinely was, and am). However, you were already considering returning in order to appease your DK 'students' as you put it -even before circumstances took a turn for the worst. Just seems like you 1) quit streaming for a petty reason in the first place, 2) publicly sobbed about it incessantly, then, lastly 3) decided to have your cake and eat it too by coming back (which it seemed like you would have anyway, even without doing a memorial stream for your uncle) after only like 5 days, once everyone and their mother knew how much you wanted viewers.
If I had to make a list (which is tough, since I know my knowledge is inaccurate on some people's scores and abilities) it would be more or less close to this:
DK GOD #0: Allen Staal (You love eet?!)
1. Mark Kiehl
2. Dean Saglio
3. George Riley
4. Ben Falls
5. Steve Wagner
6. Billy Mitchell
7. Steve Wiebe
8. Hank Chien
9. Ike Hall
10. Donald Hayes
11. George Leutz ;D
12. Brian Allen
13. Dwayne Richards
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George Marky is amazing at 2 of the 3 games
He has held the DKJR WR for years when he has great gamers coming after his record .. That should stand alone.
plus he is a credit to the Hobby ..
Brian, you know I am sorry to hear about your uncle, as I was one of the first to be concerned for you on FB (which I genuinely was, and am). However, you were already considering returning in order to appease your DK 'students' as you put it -even before circumstances took a turn for the worst. Just seems like you 1) quit streaming for a petty reason in the first place, 2) publicly sobbed about it incessantly, then, lastly 3) decided to have your cake and eat it too by coming back (which it seemed like you would have anyway, even without doing a memorial stream for your uncle) after only like 5 days, once everyone and their mother knew how much you wanted viewers.
If I had to make a list (which is tough, since I know my knowledge is inaccurate on some people's scores and abilities) it would be more or less close to this:
DK GOD #0: Allen Staal (You love eet?!)
1. Mark Kiehl
2. Dean Saglio
3. George Riley
4. Ben Falls
5. Steve Wagner
6. Billy Mitchell
7. Steve Wiebe
8. Hank Chien
9. Ike Hall
10. Donald Hayes
11. George Leutz ;D
12. Brian Allen
13. Dwayne Richards
OK, you guys are Kiehling me with this Mark Kiehl being 1st. Look I have no problems with Steve Wagner, Ben Falls, and Dean Saglio being first. But am I missing something? Does Mark Kiehl even play this game?
Heck, I'll even be honest. Hank Chien, Billy Mitchell, Steve Wiebe, and Mark Kiehl could ALL get a million on Twin Galaxies Marathon settings if they simply focused on the game for a months time or less. But the fact is they really don't play this game. None of them. I think it should be a requirement that you somewhat know how to play this game.
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Your list is interesting Mitch
you Put Steve Wiebe and Billy M, and Hank ,Dean,
I know the George L in this list is a complete Joke.
Before me when they have
no scores for DK3
Wait, you put Mark Kiehl in 1st place, and he does not have any Donkey Kong 3 scores that I know of. Am I missing something?
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This thread reminds me of when we were trying to rank DK players for the original Kong Off.
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Right look at his scores for DK and DKJR?
Your list is interesting Mitch
you Put Steve Wiebe and Billy M, and Hank ,Dean,
I know the George L in this list is a complete Joke.
Before me when they have
no scores for DK3
Wait, you put Mark Kiehl in 1st place, and he does not have any Donkey Kong 3 scores that I know of. Am I missing something?
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George Marky is amazing at 2 of the 3 games
He has held the DKJR WR for years when he has great gamers coming after his record .. That should stand alone.
plus he is a credit to the Hobby ..
OK, what I am about to say is probably unbecoming because it is boasting. But I am only boasting because Brian is using qualifications I actually meet.
Well Brian if you haven't checked some actually might call me as well "amazing at 2 of the 3 games". I have held the Donkey Kong 3 WR for years. I may not have had great gamers coming after my World Record, but I literally transformed what was thought of as possible for this game. Before I came along no one had ever heard of the repetitive blue screen. Before I came along no had ever looped the boards for this game, or even knew it was possible to loop the boards.
And by the way I did have a higher score than Mark Kiehl for a month on MAME than he did Arcade for Donkey Kong Junior.
And if that is not enough I actually have played Donkey Kong extensively, and gotten at least a decent score.
So by your standards how am I different?
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George you know how i feel about you and our friendship.. This is nothing personal in anyway.
Yes i know you had a higher score then Mark on DKJR for alittle bit of time.
But he went and upped his DKJR Score.. He could have easyly played in Mame and tolk your score from you.
About your DK3 Score I've said more then anyone how amazing it is.
You have upped your high score like 3 or times.
You have pretty much killed any interest in that game if there was any.
Heck i was trying there for awhile .... Now i've turned on my DK3 Machine like 4 times in like an year and half?
Marky is a true pro at these games. He has helped me and many others get better...
I stand by my first place vote.
George Marky is amazing at 2 of the 3 games
He has held the DKJR WR for years when he has great gamers coming after his record .. That should stand alone.
plus he is a credit to the Hobby ..
OK, what I am about to say is probably unbecoming because it is boasting. But I am only boasting because Brian is using qualifications I actually meet.
Well Brian if you haven't checked some actually might call me as well "amazing at 2 of the 3 games". I have held the Donkey Kong 3 WR for years. I may not have had great gamers coming after my World Record, but I literally transformed what was thought of as possible for this game. Before I came along no one had ever heard of the repetitive blue screen. Before I came along no had ever looped the boards for this game, or even knew it was possible to loop the boards.
And by the way I did have a higher score than Mark Kiehl for a month on MAME than he did Arcade for Donkey Kong Junior.
And if that is not enough I actually have played Donkey Kong extensively, and gotten at least a decent score.
So by your standards how am I different?
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Yeah, and I have actually made a video with Donkey Kong Junior tips. I have also helped, and encouraged people playing Donkey Kong 3. Also last time I checked I am ahead of Steve Wiebe, and Billy Mitchell in Donkey Kong Junior while Mark Kiehl is still behind them score wise on Donkey Kong.
What you are doing is applying a double standard with your qualifications. I actually meet everyone of your qualifications, and then some plus I have an OK score for Donkey Kong. Something Kiehl does not for Donkey Kong 3 (As far as I know).
Yeah, there are better ways to argue why Mark Kiehl is better than me at all 3 Kongs, but the standards you are using I actually meet, and top them as well. The argument you are using is extremely weak. It's weird I meet every single one of your standards, and yet you put Mark Kiehl as number one, and you don't even put me in the top 5. What is up with that?
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I'm not the only 1 that put him first
Yeah, and I have actually made a video with Donkey Kong Junior tips. I have also helped, and encouraged people playing Donkey Kong 3. Also last time I checked I am ahead of Steve Wiebe, and Billy Mitchell in Donkey Kong Junior while Mark Kiehl is still behind them score wise on Donkey Kong.
What you are doing is applying a double standard with your qualifications. I actually meet everyone of your qualifications, and then some plus I have an OK score for Donkey Kong. Something Kiehl does not for Donkey Kong 3 (As far as I know).
Yeah, there are better ways to argue why Mark Kiehl is better than me at all 3 Kongs, but the standards you are using I actually meet, and top them as well. The argument you are using is extremely weak. It's weird I meet every single one of your standards, and yet you put Mark Kiehl as number one, and you don't even put me in the top 5. What is up with that?
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I'm not the only 1 that put him first
Yeah, and the guy who voted Mickey Mouse for President of United States of America can also make that claim since Mickey Mouse gets at least hundreds of votes every election cycle.
Also my main beef with you is not about Mark Kiehl being number one anymore. It's your extremely weak points you have made. I have refuted every single one of them. It's very possible that MarioMitch may actually have a more valid reason for voting Mark Kiehl in first. One that I can't really refute. None of your points have really been that strong.
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I really don'nt think they need to be.
Wheres your list?
I was the one that had the Nerve to make a list in the first place.
Feedoom of Speech and the Art of thinking the way i do.
Does Marky get enough Credit for being DKJR WR Holding? No people give him crap becouse it's DKJR
I have taken the same crap for DKJR and now for Dark Tower .
I'm not the only 1 that put him first
Yeah, and the guy who voted Mickey Mouse for President of United States of America can also make that claim since Mickey Mouse gets at least hundreds of votes every election cycle.
Also my main beef with you is not about Mark Kiehl being number one anymore. It's your extremely weak points you have made. I have refuted every single one of them. It's very possible that MarioMitch may actually have a more valid reason for voting Mark Kiehl in first. One that I can't really refute. None of your points have really been that strong.
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George, the reasons why I ranked Mark and Dean how I did has to do with the relative difficulty of the games as well as the fact that I *know* they could master DK3 to at least close to your level if they tried. Mark has proven himself capable of learning all sorts of games, and I have watched Dean play DK3 enough to know he is capable as well. IMHO DK3's difficulty is significantly less than DK and DKjr because of all the extra lives, which gives a better chance for a player to refocus if they do die. Additionally, DK and Dkjr pose a different type of challenge because of the fixed number of screens, and I think most who have played both types of games (one with a fixed length vs. one with many lives where you need to survive as long as you can) would say that the first type of game is usually harder to get a great score on -since pressing all-out is usually harder than what is simply needed to consistently survive.
In the end, even some of the people I listed below you may be in the same boat as Mark and Dean where they could master DK3 as well, if they tried. But, I just don't know the details about their ability as well as I do for Mark and Dean. I also just don't know if the others I am thinking of (Billy, Steve Wiebe, Ike and Donald) actually even have a score on that game. Besides, as it stands, Mark and Dean have much stronger scores/ability on the two harder games (again, IMHO) than they (the others I mentioned) would have anyway.
Edit: And I have been thinking about it, I would actually be willing to rank you first if, all things as they are now, you had about 1.04m on DK -not 1.1m like I said previously. :)
2nd Edit: And, yes, Brian, my putting Allen Staal and George Leutz in my list was just a joke to get you worked up ;) . All the rest of my list is completely serious though.
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This thread might very well get you to pie status Mitch.
I'm the first to unlock the pie, and lemme tell ya, it's pretty sweet up here on my throne.
Can you taste it?
(https://donkeykongforum.net/Themes/dkftheme1/images/pie.png)
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Lol! Yeah I've been slacking because of lack of sleep (I get lazy and more apathetic about taking the time to post then, when otherwise I normally would). I'm sure once the DK manual is finished and Vince and I have to manage a thread about that, a lot of posts will be gained. Is it weird that I don't really care about how many post I have other than the fact that I really like to see what the DK icon changes to?!! Haha, I hope at 10,000 posts the picture is Kong looking majestic. Jeff, if you see this, don't spoil it for us! ;)
Enjoy your pie while it lasts. I am famished. I am coming.
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In reality, I'm actually sort of restraining myself from posting more.
I don't want to be "that guy" that won't shut up. There's one on every forum.
I'm still getting out a couple of years worth of pent-up "can't post at CAG" frustration.
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BTW I would put Allen ahead of George L on this ...
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George, the reasons why I ranked Mark and Dean how I did has to do with the relative difficulty of the games as well as the fact that I *know* they could master DK3 to at least close to your level if they tried. Mark has proven himself capable of learning all sorts of games, and I have watched Dean play DK3 enough to know he is capable as well. IMHO DK3's difficulty is significantly less than DK and DKjr because of all the extra lives, which gives a better chance for a player to refocus if they do die. Additionally, DK and Dkjr pose a different type of challenge because of the fixed number of screens, and I think most who have played both types of games (one with a fixed length vs. one with many lives where you need to survive as long as you can) would say that the first type of game is usually harder to get a great score on -since pressing all-out is usually harder than what is simply needed to consistently survive.
In the end, even some of the people I listed below you may be in the same boat as Mark and Dean where they could master DK3 as well, if they tried. But, I just don't know the details about their ability as well as I do for Mark and Dean. I also just don't know if the others I am thinking of (Billy, Steve Wiebe, Ike and Donald) actually even have a score on that game. Besides, as it stands, Mark and Dean have much stronger scores/ability on the two harder games (again, IMHO) than they (the others I mentioned) would have anyway.
Edit: And I have been thinking about it, I would actually be willing to rank you first if, all things as they are now, you had about 1.04m on DK -not 1.1m like I said previously. :)
2nd Edit: And, yes, Brian, my putting Allen Staal and George Leutz in my list was just a joke to get you worked up ;) . All the rest of my list is completely serious though.
Definitely a much stronger argument than Brian's. I'll give you that. I'll disagree with you that Dean, and Mark have "Much stronger abilities" in Donkey Kong Junior. Yeah, Mark is better than me at DKJr, and Dean is better than me on 3 of the 4 boards of DKJr. But "Much better". No, I have to disagree with that.
Also the argument that DKJr, and especially Donkey Kong is harder than Donkey Kong 3 is definitely true for me, but that may not be true for all Donkey Kong players. Remember Donkey Kong 3 is a shooter game more than a platform game. Ben Falls, and Steve Wagner do really well at Donkey Kong 3 because they are actually pretty good at shooter games. I don't know much about most of the top notch Donkey Kong players besides Dean.
I do know one thing. The former record holders Dwayne Richard, and Shawn Cram are all around great gamers. They don't put up weak scores. It's easy to get to a million, and not that hard to get to 1.5 million. Enough gamers have done that. The real trick is getting to 2.5 million on TG settings. Only 3 gamers have ever done that.
Is that because the players feel uninspired to do better or is there something else I am missing? I have no clue as to why people stop at 1 million or 1.5 million, but they usually do.
There is one thing you may not know about Donkey Kong 3, that maybe a factor. The game is exhausting both physically, and mentally after a certain point. Donkey Kong has safe spots, and so does Donkey Kong Junior. There are times you can go on autopilot with these games even at the highest level.
With Donkey Kong 3 it's different. There are no safe spots, and yeah keeping it mentally together for a million points when the game constantly gives you men is not the hardest thing in the world. Especially on Easy settings that most people play it on. But getting to 2.5 million on TG settings is another matter.
And unlike other shooter games this one has a timer that will kill you if you take too long, and has enemies that can not be killed that actually block your shots against other enemies.
There really isn't any game like Donkey Kong 3 out there. It's even unique as a shooter game. So maybe Donkey Kong 3 especially on TG settings is not the easiest thing to do. Just saying.
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Points well taken. I'll definitely admit that my ranking isn't a very precise science, and I only went off of pretty general assumptions and principles. Not to mention that I am probably lacking in quite a bit of knowledge about some players that I mentioned's scores on DK3.
One correction though: When I used "much stronger scores/abilities" I was comparing Mark and Dean on DK and DKjr to "they (the other gamers I mentioned)" -meaning Billy, Steve Wiebe, Ike and Donald. I was saying that even if Billy, Steve Wiebe, Ike and Donald all got good DK3 scores, they would still be lacking compared to Mark and Dean on DK and DKjr (which, I was saying, would be significant, since I view them as the harder two games). Yeah, you are definitely on par with them on DKjr (and like you said, probably a bit ahead of Dean). Sorry for the mix-up (I thought I may have been a bit confusing in how I worded that). You, Mark, and Dean are all neck and neck in my book.
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Yeah, Dean, and Mark definitely own me if you count Donkey Kong. So does Ike Hall, Steve Wiebe, Ben Falls, Steve Wagner, Hank Chien, and Billy Mitchell. All are great players on these two games, and so I don't mind being on a different tier than them for the time being. Heck, even if you count Brian Allen for just these two games I wouldn't be that offended. ;)
If you talk about the greatest Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong Junior players though I probably am in the top 10, though just barely.
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This thread reminds me of when we were trying to rank DK players for the original Kong Off.
It reminds me of the CAGDC thread that was asking people to rank classic gamers for a book of some kind. That thread was amazing.
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It was a Autograph Book Steve that will never happen.
I really wish others would post there lists...
I like to see where i fair in other people eyes... I was called *MR. Donkey Kong * on my FB last Saturday. That means alot to me. Even though i know theres players better then me.. Just the fact someone said that .
I do get sick of all the not taking me Seriously BS .
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Hey Brian, I was only able to catch the final 2-3 levels of your recent personal best game.
Over 500k on your first man? That's a pretty serious achievement!
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No that was from the 610,900 game from before. But yeah i went over 500k without dieing before . TY for what you said!
Saturdays game I Died early I went on the wrong spring 179k or something like that
Hey Brian, I was only able to catch the final 2-3 levels of your recent personal best game.
Over 500k on your first man? That's a pretty serious achievement!
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This thread might very well get you to pie status Mitch.
I'm the first to unlock the pie, and lemme tell ya, it's pretty sweet up here on my throne.
Can you taste it?
(https://donkeykongforum.net/Themes/dkftheme1/images/pie.png)
Oh yeah, tough guy?
Have you checked out the "Statistics Center" page recently?
https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?action=stats (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?action=stats)
Scroll down to the bottom, take a look at the "Most Time Online" rankings, and weep.
No one has more free time on their hands than me. I'm absolutely crushing you guys!
Soon, I will rule this forum, then the world! Mwahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!
Sorry, my "Boris Badenov" alter ego took over for a moment. I should take a break from watching "Moose and Squirrel" on the Cartoon Network.
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Funny thing is i used to leave my Name on CAG Fourms all the time.
Mark A .. Told me i had some kind of record going for awhile.
I can'nt do that anymore .. After a couple of hours i have to close all pages .. Or when i goto bed i have to close everything down!
This thread might very well get you to pie status Mitch.
I'm the first to unlock the pie, and lemme tell ya, it's pretty sweet up here on my throne.
Can you taste it?
(https://donkeykongforum.net/Themes/dkftheme1/images/pie.png)
Oh yeah, tough guy?
Have you checked out the "Statistics Center" page recently?
https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?action=stats (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?action=stats)
Scroll down to the bottom, take a look at the "Most Time Online" rankings, and weep.
No one has more free time on their hands than me. I'm absolutely crushing you guys!
Soon, I will rule this forum, then the world! Mwahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!
Sorry, my "Boris Badenov" alter ego took over for a moment. I should take a break from watching "Moose and Squirrel" on the Cartoon Network.
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If I had to make a list (which is tough, since I know my knowledge is inaccurate on some people's scores and abilities) it would be more or less close to this:
DK GOD #0: Allen Staal (You love eet?!)
1. Mark Kiehl
2. Dean Saglio
3. George Riley
4. Ben Falls
5. Steve Wagner
6. Billy Mitchell
7. Steve Wiebe
8. Hank Chien
9. Ike Hall
10. Donald Hayes
11. George Leutz ;D
12. Brian Allen
13. Dwayne Richards
Hi guys, great thread!
As an outsider living in England looking in, this list is the list I would have put together. I see Donkey Kong & Junior being the two that significantly make the list and DK being the key. I will say this though, if I were Mark, I'd be looking over my shoulder as I think Mr Riley is on his way!
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OK, a third person has stated Mark Kiehl is the best at all 3 despite the fact he doesn't even play the 3rd game.
Then one question. If he is the all around best, than come up with a competition where he would actually beat score wise in all 3 games. How bout we make Donkey Kong 3 5 man so the scores are more compatible with each other.
Mark Kiehl would have 1.05 million in Donkey Kong, 1.328 million in DKJr, and lets be generous and give him a 200k score in 5 man. That's a score of 2.428 million.
I would have a score of .457 million in Donkey Kong, 1.313 million in DKJr, and a 1.303 million score in Donkey Kong 3. Hmm that score is 3.073 million
Well last time I checked 3.073 million>2.428 million
See the people who put Mark ahead of me on the 3 games are the fuzzy feeling type of people. It just feels good to put him ahead of me. They actually have no mathematical info that backs up their claims AT ALL, but they will still make him ahead of me because it just FEELS RIGHT. This is America, and they really should have the right to their opinions even if it is not backed up by any fact whatsoever.
You see any way you slice the math. I beat Mark Kiehl. Any way you slice the competition I beat Mark. In fact you really have to bend over backwards to find ways to make this competition so that Mark beats me.
You see to them being the all around best at all 3 really means "Being the all around best at Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong Junior".
It's a complete joke to put him ahead of me. Yeah, I said that. He needs to at least play Donkey Kong 3 before you start crowning him the best at all 3 games.
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OK, a third person has stated Mark Kiehl is the best at all 3 despite the fact he doesn't even play the 3rd game.
Then one question. If he is the all around best, than come up with a competition where he would actually beat score wise in all 3 games. How bout we make Donkey Kong 3 5 man so the scores are more compatible with each other.
Mark Kiehl would have 1.05 million in Donkey Kong, 1.328 million in DKJr, and lets be generous and give him a 200k score in 5 man. That's a score of 2.428 million.
I would have a score of .457 million in Donkey Kong, 1.313 million in DKJr, and a 1.303 million score in Donkey Kong 3. Hmm that score is 3.073 million
Well last time I checked 3.073 million>2.428 million
See the people who put Mark ahead of me on the 3 games are the fuzzy feeling type of people. It just feels good to put him ahead of me. They actually have no mathematical info that backs up their claims AT ALL, but they will still make him ahead of me because it just FEELS RIGHT. This is America, and they really should have the right to their opinions even if it is not backed up by any fact whatsoever.
You see any way you slice the math. I beat Mark Kiehl. Any way you slice the competition I beat Mark. In fact you really have to bend over backwards to find ways to make this competition so that Mark beats me.
You see to them being the all around best at all 3 really means "Being the all around best at Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong Junior".
It's a complete joke to put him ahead of me. Yeah, I said that. He needs to at least play Donkey Kong 3 before you start crowning him the best at all 3 games.
Significant weight is applied to the original DK game which I think seems reasonable given its far reaching popularity. I would assume something like (DKx4, DKJ x2, DK3x1).
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And like I said you have to bend over backwards in order for a scenario for Mark to beat me. And yeah, applying 4 times the point value to Donkey Kong would be in effect bending over backwards. You might as well assign a million times the point value to Donkey Kong. Both make about the same mathematical sense.
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And like I said you have to bend over backwards in order for a scenario for Mark to beat me. And yeah, applying 4 times the point value to Donkey Kong would be in effect bending over backwards. You might as well assign a million times the point value to Donkey Kong. Both make about the same mathematical sense.
What if you assigned a weight based on # of submissions on a game across all the scoring sites or do you feel that all 3 should hold equal weight?
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And like I said you have to bend over backwards in order for a scenario for Mark to beat me. And yeah, applying 4 times the point value to Donkey Kong would be in effect bending over backwards. You might as well assign a million times the point value to Donkey Kong. Both make about the same mathematical sense.
What if you assigned a weight based on # of submissions on a game across all the scoring sites or do you feel that all 3 should hold equal weight?
It doesn't matter how many people submit for Donkey Kong. That really should have no factor whatsoever. If there was going to be a weight scale, here is how I would assign it. Yes, Donkey Kong gets more weight, but only because the highest possible score is lower.
I would give Donkey Kong a multiplier of 1.2. That should be more than enough because 1.2 times 1.12 million equals 1.344 million. A higher score than the high for Donkey Kong Junior or Donkey Kong 3.
I would also lock in the Donkey Kong 3 score at 1.3 million. So if someone gets 2 million on 5 man, it still only counts as 1.3 million because the scores would be more in line with the other two scores.
Fact is this. Just because there is more competition for Donkey Kong doesn't change the all around best title. All it does is make the all around best title less significant.
So saying something like your the all around best at the 3 Kongs is like saying you are the shortest NBA player. Or that you get the best grades for a person with an IQ of 80. Or that you have the most hair on your body for a completely bald man.
So yeah, the more competition for the other two games does not change the numbers. All it does it make the statement less significant. To say that I am the all around best at all 3 games is really not saying much. Me having the second highest score in Donkey Kong Junior is more significant than me being the all around best at the 3 Donkey Kongs just to put things into perspective.
So the title of being the all around best at all 3 Kongs really isn't saying much given the lack of competition. It just sounds cool. ;D
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It doesn't matter how many people submit for Donkey Kong. That really should have no factor whatsoever.
If we assume that submissions are generally of strong quality and therefore also use overall rank on a title to avoid having to try to theoretically rationalize game scoring equality:
Quantity increase of submissions increases the difficulty of being ranked higher on a given game which weight a game with more quality submissons more heavily.
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It doesn't matter how many people submit for Donkey Kong. That really should have no factor whatsoever.
If we assume that submissions are generally of strong quality and therefore also use overall rank on a title to avoid having to try to theoretically rationalize game scoring equality:
Quantity increase of submissions increases the difficulty of being ranked higher on a given game which weight a game with more quality submissons more heavily.
OK, well if you combine both tournament, and marathon submissions, MAME/Arcade I am 1st out of 50 submissions.
For Donkey Kong Junior Submissions I am 2nd out of about 100 submissions, and for Donkey Kong I am about 50th for about 200 submissions.
So me
1st out of 50 for DK3
2nd out of 100 for DKJr.
50th out of 200 for DK
For Mark Kiehl
1st out of 100 for DKJr.
7th out of 200 for DK
50th out of 50 for DK3 (Since he does not play the game)
So now let's make the positions equal to each other, and make them equivalent to DK3.
So for my ranking it would be 1st for DK3, 1st for DKJr(You cut the 2nd to 1st since there is twice as many submissions), 12.5 for DK(You divide by 4 since there is 4 times as many submissions)
For Mark it would be 0.5 for DKJr (Half of 1 is 0.5), 1.75 for DK (7 divided by 4 equals 1.75), 50 for DK3 (Since he has no score I know of).
So now we add the totals, and the lower total is the better one.
So for me, 1+1+12.5=14.5
So for Mark, 0.5+1.75+50=52.25
So even if we do it by ranking divided by submissions I still do pretty well.
Edit: if you look at what I did, I even did what Steve suggested. Give the DK ranking 4 times the value, give the Donkey Kong Junior ranking 2 times the value, and give the Donkey Kong 3 ranking 1 times the value.
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DK:
122 aurcade
101 TG
89 MARP
312 Total
dk jr:
54 aurcade
53 TG
24 MARP
131 Total
dk3:
20 aurcade (med and easy)
15 (TG marathon)
2 (TGTS)
26 MARP
63 Total
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DK:
122 aurcade
101 TG
89 MARP
312 Total
dk jr:
54 aurcade
53 TG
24 MARP
131 Total
dk3:
20 aurcade (med and easy)
15 (TG marathon)
2 (TGTS)
26 MARP
63 Total
OK, sure whatever let's do it that way. I am still in the top 25 percent when it comes to Donkey Kong total submissions. So .25 times 312 equals 78th place for Donkey Kong. OK let's work with this math as well. So based on this we give Donkey Kong a dividing power of 4.95, and we give Donkey Kong Junior a dividing power of 2.08, and DK3 is divided by one, meaning it remains the same.
I am 78th place out of 312 for DK, 2nd place out of 131 for DKJr, and 1st out of 63 for DK3.
Mark checks in at 7th out of 312 for DK, and 1st place out of 131 for DKJr, and 63 out of 63 for DK3(Since he does not play DK3).
So now my adjusted rankings
My Donkey Kong place is 78/4.95=15.75, My Donkey Kong Junior place is 2/2.08=0.96, and my Donkey Kong 3 place is 1/1=1
Mark's Donkey Kong place is 7/4.95=1.41, His Donkey Kong Junior place is 1/2.08=.48, and his Donkey Kong 3 place is 63/1=63
So for me it's 15.75+0.96+1= 17.71
For Mark it's 1.41+.48+63= 64.89
Again my ranking average lower than Mark's given this adjusted system as well. You can play this math game all day long, and I win in almost every single one of them.
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I am 78th place out of 312 for DK, 2nd place out of 131 for DKJr, and 1st out of 63 for DK3.
Mark checks in at 7th out of 312 for DK, and 1st place out of 131 for DKJr, and 63 out of 63 for DK3(Since he does not play DK3).
A Winner is Marky D with no score on one of the titles!
Where's the unicorn pic?
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I am 78th place out of 312 for DK, 2nd place out of 131 for DKJr, and 1st out of 63 for DK3.
Mark checks in at 7th out of 312 for DK, and 1st place out of 131 for DKJr, and 63 out of 63 for DK3(Since he does not play DK3).
A Winner is Marky D with no score on one of the titles!
Where's the unicorn pic?
But by your own math you know that is not true. Now that last sentence make me believe you finally are catching on to the whole situation. The overall best player in all 3 Kongs is about as significant as a unicorn picture. Bingo!
See I never said this was significant. No the power of adding Donkey Kong into the mix does not make it significant, but the power of adding DK3 into the mix makes it not significant. Again I totally agree, be dismissive. Now that has a stronger backing. Agreed 100 percent!
The title of being the best at all 3 is cool sounding, but it is extremely hollow when you examine it upon closer inspection.
Mark's 7th place Donkey Kong score is WAY more significant than being the all around best at the 3 titles, because there is more competition for it. My 2nd place Donkey Kong Junior score is also more significant than all around best at the 3 titles. Why? because there is more competition for it.
Math wise though I still am correct. 9 times out of 10 the math says I am the all around best at the 3 titles no matter how you crunch them.
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Math wise though I still am correct. 9 times out of 10 the math says I am the best at the 3 titles no matter how you crunch them.
I agree the thread is insignificant, however I'm still confused why you take a % after just looking at straight rank which takes into account any weight already since the quantity of submissions handles that aspect.
I went into all 3 scoring sites, found the top score on all 3 games you or Mark have achieved and I used that score in conjunction with total submissions across all sites. Marky won by < 10. What is the issue with that logic?
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I'm just trying to get to the pie status for my account.....
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DKjr math.
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BTW I would put Allen ahead of George L on this ...
Good one, Brian. You got me that time.
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I give marky Credit for not saying anything in here... I have a pretty good idea he has been reading all of this.
He is allways readings posts and watching others playing.. Ben Falls was playing DKJR ... There was Marky sitting and watching and chatting.
Next to never see George doing this other then a Richie's Arcade show.
maybe i'm wrong but who knows?
I try to do the samething go around and watch others playing and help them when i can!
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Math wise though I still am correct. 9 times out of 10 the math says I am the best at the 3 titles no matter how you crunch them.
I agree the thread is insignificant, however I'm still confused why you take a % after just looking at straight rank which takes into account any weight already since the quantity of submissions handles that aspect.
I went into all 3 scoring sites, found the top score on all 3 games you or Mark have achieved and I used that score in conjunction with total submissions across all sites. Marky won by < 10. What is the issue with that logic?
I agree Steve. You are using BOTA scoring of the sum of ranks which is the nationally recognized way of determing overall performance across games. So if you're going to engage in this pointless exercise, that's the way to do it.
Even that probably gives DK3 way too much weight though. Otherwise it ends up being a lot like claiming somebody is the best overall pitcher because he has the fewest balks even though his ERA is 6.89, or saying he's a better overall athlete than LeBron James because he can racewalk faster.
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What in the...I skimmed the last few posts, and they looked kinda complicated. It's too late to say "leave me out of this" I guess, but should I bother reading them? I mean, I don't care if I'm on any lists at all so I don't plan on disputing any results of any formula. Why am I always at the center of controversy?? :)
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What in the...I skimmed the last few posts, and they looked kinda complicated. It's too late to say "leave me out of this" I guess, but should I bother reading them? I mean, I don't care if I'm on any lists at all so I don't plan on disputing any results of any formula. Why am I always at the center of controversy?? :)
Just wait until the list sub forum is created and the Top 5 Moon Shuttle players thread gets created....you think you're embroiled in controversy now?!?!?!?
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Just wait until the list sub forum is created and the Top 5 Moon Shuttle players thread gets created....you think you're embroiled in controversy now?!?!?!?
fk
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He is allways readings posts and watching others playing.. Ben Falls was playing DKJR ... There was Marky sitting and watching and chatting.
Next to never see George doing this other then a Richie's Arcade show.
maybe i'm wrong but who knows?
I try to do the samething go around and watch others playing and help them when i can!
Yes Brian, you're a big help.
But why on Earth would I be watching DKjr? I'll watch Ben patrol the moon. Listen to some queensryche.
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I'm not speaking of you .
He is allways readings posts and watching others playing.. Ben Falls was playing DKJR ... There was Marky sitting and watching and chatting.
Next to never see George doing this other then a Richie's Arcade show.
maybe i'm wrong but who knows?
I try to do the samething go around and watch others playing and help them when i can!
Yes Brian, you're a big help.
But why on Earth would I be watching DKjr? I'll watch Ben patrol the moon. Listen to some queensryche.
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I agree Steve. You are using BOTA scoring of the sum of ranks which is the nationally recognized way of determing overall performance across games. So if you're going to engage in this pointless exercise, that's the way to do it.
TY For saying that.
Fun fact: I actually developed the intracacies of the BOTA scoring system in the middle of doing a workout video.
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Good to know there are people who think other wise than I do. So it seems like a good majority of people still don't think I am the best overall of the 3 Kongs. I guess I'll keep on trucking along.
Yeah, I guess if you go straight by adding ranking without adding weights I lose that one. You can argue it's not the most mathematically accurate, but fair enough. At least there is one way I lose out math wise.
Hey, I think the adding rankings also works out in Brian's favor as well. Sounds fair enough. I admit defeat. Ranking wise Mark Kiehl, and a few others like Steve Wagner, Mark Kiehl, Billy Mitchell, Steve Wiebe, Brian Allen.
Yep, I jumped the gun on this one. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways! 8)
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George, one of the aspects of how I ranked you and Mark (and, really, in the end, I think you guys are basically neck and neck) was how certain I was that Mark could play well on DK3 if he ever tried. If Mark could get 1m+ on 5-man settings in like under a month (and, I honestly think he could), then it actually significantly matters whether or not he even cares about playing the game. There may be a big element to this debate about actual vs latent scores/abilities and at what point do you not factor in latent abilities that could easily and quickly be tapped. If he could get 1m in a week, is there a good argument? How about if it took a month? A few months would start being too long IMO. See what I mean? This would all apply to my ranking of Dean as well. It's all pretty iffy with Mark even moreso, since I haven't seen him play DK3 specifically, but I know he is great at mastering diverse games in general. So I'm kinda going on a little inductive speculation, I'll admit.
As far as the weighting of the games goes, from what I know of the games, I think a more fair weighting of DK:DKjr:DK3 5-man would be closer to something like 6:5:4.
Edit: Thinking about it now, for the 'latent abilities' argument, what would matter most is actually attempts and not time. So that would probably work against Mark a little more.
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I should start a thread called, "Am I the worst all around player of the 3 Donkey Kongs?". Well, because I am. I suck at DK (high score of 200K+), I blow at DK Jr (can't make it off of L=2, no joke), and there's no hope for me when it comes to DK3. Just wait until I finally get my stream going... then I can prove myself worthy of being the worst.
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Nah I've been there.. Keep going!
I should start a thread called, "Am I the worst all around player of the 3 Donkey Kongs?". Well, because I am. I suck at DK (high score of 200K+), I blow at DK Jr (can't make it off of L=2, no joke), and there's no hope for me when it comes to DK3. Just wait until I finally get my stream going... then I can prove myself worthy of being the worst.
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If Mark could get 1m+ on 5-man settings in like under a month (and, I honestly think he could),
Really, really? Tell you what, before making assumptions. Why don't you just for fun play the game on MAME Medium settings at least a few times. Want don't you look up the former record holders just for fun. Dwayne Richard, and Shawn Cram. Why don't you see some of their other scores? They have scores that take more than a month to get a record in.
Oh, I could see him getting a million on Marathon settings in two weeks if he wanted to. But that is different than 5 man settings. Marathon gives you 37 men. 5 men of course gives you 5 men.
I can't believe that after all the time I have spent on getting my Donkey Kong 3 scores to where they are at, that I get a statement that someone who has almost never played the game can get 5 man on presumably Arcade settings in less than a month.
Maybe he can do it on Easy settings, but he definitely is not doing it on MAME Hard settings. Marinomitch that statement is disrespectful to anyone who has taken this game somewhat seriously.
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TY George!
Good to know there are people who think other wise than I do. So it seems like a good majority of people still don't think I am the best overall of the 3 Kongs. I guess I'll keep on trucking along.
Yeah, I guess if you go straight by adding ranking without adding weights I lose that one. You can argue it's not the most mathematically accurate, but fair enough. At least there is one way I lose out math wise.
Hey, I think the adding rankings also works out in Brian's favor as well. Sounds fair enough. I admit defeat. Ranking wise Mark Kiehl, and a few others like Steve Wagner, Mark Kiehl, Billy Mitchell, Steve Wiebe, Brian Allen.
Yep, I jumped the gun on this one. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways! 8)
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George, how long do you think it would take someone, cold turkey, to get 1m+ on 5-man? I am assuming that Mark is not cold turkey, so he'll have a little head start. I am cold turkey on DK3, as I have only ever played about 12 attempts in total (and I was completely rushing just to qualify for the CAGDC tourney), and I can get about 100K on 5 men already. I've watched and seen how the game gets tougher, and I think if someone really wanted to, and watched INPs of good players and actually practiced patiently (which I haven't done either), that they could do it. It has happened with DK (e.g. Jeff Willms). It's not a diss on you or other DK3 players, as it is a compliment to Mark and a comment on how much being able to watch other players helps with the learning curve.
I'll be back later to see what pops up on this thread, for now I gotta go try for a big BurgerTime score. Can't wait. :)
P.s. My improvement on BT is a prime example of my point. I've watched hours of INPs, so I'm already gunning for 5m+ with maybe less than 8-9 practice sessions. Without the INPs or my dedication to study, I'd be at like 100-200k. (Insert "That's Just the Way it Is" song here).
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Mitch i think your 12th place of me is alittle bit of a slap in the face. :o
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George, how long do you think it would take someone, cold turkey, to get 1m+ on 5-man? I am assuming that Mark is not cold turkey, so he'll have a little head start. I am cold turkey on DK3, as I have only ever played about 12 attempts in total (and I was completely rushing just to qualify for the CAGDC tourney), and I can get about 100K on 5 men already. I've watched and seen how the game gets tougher, and I think if someone really wanted to, and watched INPs of good players and actually practiced patiently (which I haven't done either), that they could do it. It has happened with DK (e.g. Jeff Willms). It's not a diss on you or other DK3 players, as it is a compliment to Mark and a comment on how much being able to watch other players helps with the learning curve.
I'll be back later to see what pops up on this thread, for now I gotta go try for a big BurgerTime score. Can't wait. :)
P.s. My improvement on BT is a prime example of my point. I've watched hours of INPs, so I'm already gunning for 5m+ with maybe less than 8-9 practice sessions. Without the INPs or my dedication to study, I'd be at like 100-200k. (Insert "That's Just the Way it Is" song here).
There are nuances to the game, that take a very long time to get down. By the way, what you played was Donkey Kong on Easy settings to get 100k. Burgertime is a pattern game, and producing the same moves gets the same results. I don't use patterns for Donkey Kong 3. I don't think you can use patterns for that game. Not successfully anyways.
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I haven't been able to leave for the arcade yet (making food currently), so I'll respond now, since I can.
Brian, I wasn't trying to slap you in the face with my placing. I tried to be as objective as could by assuming what I thought were relatively safe assumptions and also looking up everyones' scores that I could find, that I didn't already know. If you see it as a slap in the face, it is probably a sign that you think you are better than you actually are relative to the competition -that is, unless you can prove my ranking wrong. Realize that if yo think you are being overlooked, it may be that you are actually overlooking others. ;)
George, agreed, BurgerTime is a pattern game, so it is much easier to improve at IMHO. I was just trying to prove my sub-point that with being able to watch other good players' INPs so easily (and not to mention save-sates!) one can improve at an incredible rate. BurgerTime may have not ultimately the best example. However, many games are filled with pseudo-patterns that, once realized, help the player develop much more quickly. Galaga may be a better example to DK3 in this regard (since it is a shooting game and the enemies in both games have their own patterns/tendencies that can be discovered/learned). This obviously will hold less true with DK3 than it would for Galaga, but I think my suggestion of watching INPs in order to improve on DK3 very quickly is valid since it would easily work wonders for anyone trying to get a great 5-man score on Galaga.
Another thing to realize is that DK3 5-man is a survival game/track. I think I said earlier that these types of games/tracks are typically much easier. I'll also add, that these types of games/tracks present a much higher chance for the player to get lucky 1 or 2 times in the hardest part of the game and thereby increase the one's score considerably. You currently have over 1.3m on the 5-man settings, but imagine if maybe one of your deaths you could have lucked out and barely survived on -you could have maybe gotten another 250k! That's just the dynamics of how the game works when the difficulty of the various screens is rather punctuated (meaning some screens are harder than others). If someone is playing a game that requires a lot of pressing, the chance for these types of score improvements usually goes down.
Oh yeah...and "what food are you making?" you might ask....
Pie. 250 posts: booyah!
We're living the good life, aren't we Chris? ;) Did you get blueberry or strawberry? I got pumpkin! :P
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TY George!Good to know there are people who think other wise than I do. So it seems like a good majority of people still don't think I am the best overall of the 3 Kongs. I guess I'll keep on trucking along.
Yeah, I guess if you go straight by adding ranking without adding weights I lose that one. You can argue it's not the most mathematically accurate, but fair enough. At least there is one way I lose out math wise.
Hey, I think the adding rankings also works out in Brian's favor as well. Sounds fair enough. I admit defeat. Ranking wise Mark Kiehl, and a few others like Steve Wagner, Mark Kiehl, Billy Mitchell, Steve Wiebe, Brian Allen.
Yep, I jumped the gun on this one. Thank you for showing me the error of my ways! 8)
No problem. The person you should thank is Steve Wagner. It's his idea to apply BOTA system to this. I mean you are at least 20 places ahead of me in Donkey Kong only 5 places behind me in Donkey Kong Junior, and only 6 places behind me in Donkey Kong 3. This means you are 9 spots ahead of me over all at least, and probably more. I was blind Allen before Steve Wagner offered this awesome ranking system, and now I see the light. It's as plain as day that you are truly better than me on all 3 Donkey Kongs. I mean the numbers don't lie.
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I'm not speaking of you .
It's alright Brian, you didn't need to be. It worked out anyway.
(http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt272/grudgrud/moonscrime_zps12666ddb.jpg)
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(http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e367/gatsby6306/111smileychubbyhilarious.gif)
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George Leutz, that is amazing. So funny!
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One thing I just noticed about the BOTA ranking system. The games are evenly distributed with the same amount of people. It really doesn't work that well when the ranking are heavily distributed towards one game with more participants. It gives an disproportional distribution towards the weighted game.
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Ok, first of all this thread is at least borderline obnoxious and the topic itself is very arbitrary. Many CAGers both past and present consider the fact that DK3 used the DK name and character to be pretty much blasphemy -- a clear "jump the shark" sort of marketing ploy to try to sell a shooter to people that enjoy platformers. To me, this is sort of like just picking any three games, like "Who is the best all around at DK, Moon Patrol and Satan's Hollow"? (Answer: Ben Falls)
BUT, if we're going to discuss this topic once in a while anyway I might as well throw in my two cents and actually throw my hat into the "competition" as time allows too. . .
George, what a lot of people keep trying to explain to you is that since DK3 has no kill screen you cannot just use simple math for this topic. For example, you definitely CANNOT just add up your 3 scores on the three games and have that be meaningful in any way (as you seem to want to do often in these threads). Even your recent attempt to compare scores against the 5-man track just does not work since someone "could" still play the game indefinitely as long as they don't lose 5 men -- something that is physically impossible with the other two games because of their kill screens. I suppose if TG had a well established and highly competitive track where the players played on 5-man settings and their score was taken after completion of Round 32 (or something), THEN you could at least begin to (sort of) compare the scores mathematically. But DK3 is not played that way. So, that's why the whole thing becomes very subjective -- especially since one person isn't clearly dominating all 3 games.
The point of course is that the difference in points does not accurately describe the difference in skill from one game to the next -- it only paints a picture for one particular game.
For example (getting very subjective here), it would be silly to say that a 1.1 million point DK player is "10% better than" a 1 million point DK player, despite the score being just 10% higher. The reason, of course, is that the kill screen forces a player to squeeze extra points into the same number of (Timed) screens and so mathematically, the increase in skill required to do so is not linear -- it's something more like logarithmic or geometric. Very roughly speaking, I would say that a 1.05 million point player is about twice as good as a 1 million point player. A 1.2 million point player might actually be 3 or 4 TIMES as good as a mere 1.175 million point player. (a 800,000 point player is probably quite a bit LESS than twice as good as a 400,000 point player) -- and so on. This sort of thing isn't even remotely true of DK3 scores.
On the other hand, further complicating matters is the fact that DK3 has one massive plateau. All of us who have scored somewhere around 1.2 million to 1.5 million points understand that the BEST way for US to score the MOST points is to use the super spray to pretty much skip 2 screens and then INTENTIONALLY die on the 3rd screen -- rinse and repeat. It is actually significantly WORSE to try to pass the 3rd screen and mess up the cycle. In order to get to the point where one can routinely pass ALL of the screens WITHOUT the super spray to the point where they can actually score significantly better than just playing that 3 screen cycle, they must overcome a MASSIVE plateau -- but once this skill level is achieved, scores can potentially skyrocket with a relatively small increase in skill since the game's difficulty is maxed out. So comparing the skill level of someone who plays the 3 screen cycle and someone who is able to get significantly higher scores becomes totally subjective and is not well related to the score.
Since you like analogies, suppose someone discovers a special technique to be able to achieve a 30 million point jump on EVERY single board of Zookeeper, over and over again. This might require a small increase in overall skill beyond other good players who are unable to score 30 million point jumps. Soon, this player is recording scores on this game in the BILLIONS of points. Is this player literally HUNDREDS OF TIMES better than a very good 10 million point player? No, clearly the difference in scores would not accurately reflect the difference in skill in this case. I think we have similar issues occuring with these 3 games in this thread -- so very subjective comparisons are naturally going to result.
(BTW, I do find it mildly amusing that no one has scored 1M on all 3 games yet (Ben Falls? Steve W, Billy M?) Perhaps I should find some time in the near future to run through some boards on DKJR. . . )
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very good post Dean.
I belive Steve Wagner is the closest to 1 millon on all 3 games.
I only need about 310k on Dk and i'm there Ok, first of all this thread is at least borderline obnoxious and the topic itself is very arbitrary. Many CAGers both past and present consider the fact that DK3 used the DK name and character to be pretty much blasphemy -- a clear "jump the shark" sort of marketing ploy to try to sell a shooter to people that enjoy platformers. To me, this is sort of like just picking any three games, like "Who is the best all around at DK, Moon Patrol and Satan's Hollow"? (Answer: Ben Falls)
BUT, if we're going to discuss this topic once in a while anyway I might as well throw in my two cents and actually throw my hat into the "competition" as time allows too. . .
George, what a lot of people keep trying to explain to you is that since DK3 has no kill screen you cannot just use simple math for this topic. For example, you definitely CANNOT just add up your 3 scores on the three games and have that be meaningful in any way (as you seem to want to do often in these threads). Even your recent attempt to compare scores against the 5-man track just does not work since someone "could" still play the game indefinitely as long as they don't lose 5 men -- something that is physically impossible with the other two games because of their kill screens. I suppose if TG had a well established and highly competitive track where the players played on 5-man settings and their score was taken after completion of Round 32 (or something), THEN you could at least begin to (sort of) compare the scores mathematically. But DK3 is not played that way. So, that's why the whole thing becomes very subjective -- especially since one person isn't clearly dominating all 3 games.
The point of course is that the difference in points does not accurately describe the difference in skill from one game to the next -- it only paints a picture for one particular game.
For example (getting very subjective here), it would be silly to say that a 1.1 million point DK player is "10% better than" a 1 million point DK player, despite the score being just 10% higher. The reason, of course, is that the kill screen forces a player to squeeze extra points into the same number of (Timed) screens and so mathematically, the increase in skill required to do so is not linear -- it's something more like logarithmic or geometric. Very roughly speaking, I would say that a 1.05 million point player is about twice as good as a 1 million point player. A 1.2 million point player might actually be 3 or 4 TIMES as good as a mere 1.175 million point player. (a 800,000 point player is probably quite a bit LESS than twice as good as a 400,000 point player) -- and so on. This sort of thing isn't even remotely true of DK3 scores.
On the other hand, further complicating matters is the fact that DK3 has one massive plateau. All of us who have scored somewhere around 1.2 million to 1.5 million points understand that the BEST way for US to score the MOST points is to use the super spray to pretty much skip 2 screens and then INTENTIONALLY die on the 3rd screen -- rinse and repeat. It is actually significantly WORSE to try to pass the 3rd screen and mess up the cycle. In order to get to the point where one can routinely pass ALL of the screens WITHOUT the super spray to the point where they can actually score significantly better than just playing that 3 screen cycle, they must overcome a MASSIVE plateau -- but once this skill level is achieved, scores can potentially skyrocket with a relatively small increase in skill since the game's difficulty is maxed out. So comparing the skill level of someone who plays the 3 screen cycle and someone who is able to get significantly higher scores becomes totally subjective and is not well related to the score.
Since you like analogies, suppose someone discovers a special technique to be able to achieve a 30 million point jump on EVERY single board of Zookeeper, over and over again. This might require a small increase in overall skill beyond other good players who are unable to score 30 million point jumps. Soon, this player is recording scores on this game in the BILLIONS of points. Is this player literally HUNDREDS OF TIMES better than a very good 10 million point player? No, clearly the difference in scores would not accurately reflect the difference in skill in this case. I think we have similar issues occuring with these 3 games in this thread -- so very subjective comparisons are naturally going to result.
(BTW, I do find it mildly amusing that no one has scored 1M on all 3 games yet (Ben Falls? Steve W, Billy M?) Perhaps I should find some time in the near future to run through some boards on DKJR. . . )
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Even your recent attempt to compare scores against the 5-man track just does not work since someone "could" still play the game indefinitely as long as they don't lose 5 men -- something that is physically impossible with the other two games because of their kill screens.
Good post Dean. This point in particular is the trouble maker. This is way in another thread somewhere I was saying that a 1 hour time limit on DK3 was the best one to use, but even that still runs into issues with the plateau/skill points you also made.
(BTW, I do find it mildly amusing that no one has scored 1M on all 3 games yet (Ben Falls? Steve W, Billy M?) Perhaps I should find some time in the near future to run through some boards on DKJR. . . )
Do it! Take a well deserved break form DK sometime and put up a 1m+ score on DKjr. Btw, have you done 1m+ on DK3 TG settings?
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George L
I thought this was really cool!I'm not speaking of you .
It's alright Brian, you didn't need to be. It worked out anyway.
(http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt272/grudgrud/moonscrime_zps12666ddb.jpg)
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Since you like analogies, suppose someone discovers a special technique to be able to achieve a 30 million point jump on EVERY single board of Zookeeper, over and over again. This might require a small increase in overall skill beyond other good players who are unable to score 30 million point jumps. Soon, this player is recording scores on this game in the BILLIONS of points. Is this player literally HUNDREDS OF TIMES better than a very good 10 million point player? No, clearly the difference in scores would not accurately reflect the difference in skill in this case. I think we have similar issues occuring with these 3 games in this thread -- so very subjective comparisons are naturally going to result.
Well there is a small problem with the analogy. I actually show my videos, and my technique is for everyone to see. If the skill level was that minimal for kill yourself off, and get the super spray from passing all the boards then it should be easy peesy for someone to look at one my videos and actually copy what I am doing to get a similar score. Hmm, but that didn't happen.
Most of the wide gap scores in games like Junior Pac-man, Super Pac-man, and so on are hidden submissions with the owners keeping what they do a well kept secret.
Also one more thing. If it really is so much easier to get the the Donkey Kong 3 high score, than how on earth did I pull off a 1,313,800 score on Donkey Kong Junior? Yeah, Junior is easier than Donkey Kong, but it still a relatively hard game. And if getting the Donkey Kong 3 record is so easy despite the extremely high score I should theoretically not even be close to the Donkey Kong Junior record score. And I could argue that I am more of a dodge, and shoot extremely accurately type of guy.
One last defense on how hard Donkey Kong 3 is.
1. Donkey Kong 3 has a timer that make it so you have to kill all the insects before time runs out or be killed. Easier to do on Easy, but much harder two settings up. How many shooter games actually have timers to give you a certain amount of time to kill your enemies? Hmm, not many. Not many at all. Off hand the only one I can really think of is Megamania, and River Raid for the Atari 2600. I am sure there are others.
2. Donkey Kong 3 has worms that will climb down to make it themselves an obstacle. They can not be killed when shot, and in fact they actually block your shots when trying to shoot at other insects. Again how many shooter games actually have objects that stay on the screen the entire level that can't be killed, and block your shots at other enemies. Again, I can't think of many.
3. Donkey Kong 3 has Donkey Kong that can not be eliminated in the round unless you have the Super Spray to spray him up all the way to the top, and will constantly throws barrels at you while constantly moving down the ropes to kill you. If you don't pay attention to him enough he will climb down, and kill you. Only way to stop him without the spray his to kill all the insects. Again how many shooter games have a boss that can not be killed, and is constantly throwing projectiles at you, and if you ignore them will drop down to the point where it's instant death? Again not many shooter games do that.
4. Donkey Kong 3 has no safe spots. This one is really important compared to the other two. Let's be honest, In Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong Junior there are points in the game where a person can mentally check out. For Donkey Kong Junior it's the Point pressing on the Jungle Stage, and the Point Pressing on the Hideout stage. People constantly talk about how tiring both Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong Junior is. Well it might be, but it is nowhere near as physically tiring as Donkey Kong 3. You constantly have to stay alert for this game when you're playing it. The game literally is a think game. Most of the top players play the game while standing up. I don't see that with Donkey Kong, or Donkey Kong Junior. Almost every single Donkey Kong, and Donkey Kong Junior player plays sitting down.
Lastly, to tell you the truth. I really don't know how hard my Donkey Kong 3 records are to beat. I actually do have some decent scores in other games console, and arcade/MAME, and I do know I take to DK3 like a duck to water. Does that influence how hard it is to beat my score? I would think so, but I am not 100 percent positive.
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After some more thinking. I do agree with agree with Dean on a couple of things. One this whole thing is subjective. No true math formula is going to ultimately prove who is the best at all three games. Also I really should have used a different title for this thread. This title is extremely arrogant,and obnoxious. I probably should have titled it. Who is the best of the 3 Donkey Kongs? That way I am including a whole variety of people in the mix.
And one last thing. There is another massive plateau that only I really know about. It's the repetitive blue screen. Another strategy, and skill level is needed to pass this as well.
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there should be a poll up on this site on this.