New Kong-Off format idea

[dd0ck]

Might as well blow up this thread...

I was talking with Richie about a potential new format for the KO, a huge departure from the past to mix things up. Richie asked me to make a video and upload it to the forum to see your guys' thoughts. Just easier that trying to type it up, especially if nobody likes it.

Here's the idea:
! No longer available

Thoughts?

[homerwannabee]

OK, I guess I'll be the first to chime in.  First, I had to watch the video twice to get a full understanding of what your proposal was in full.  It's definitely innovative, and different, but there are a couple of problems I see. 

1)This will created confusion.  You, yourself seemed confused on how to proceed with round 2.
2) Round 2 will be hard to set up.  You'd probably would have to have a whole bunch of lap tops to do these MAME save states.
3) Round 1 seems a tad bit unfair.  Donkey Kong can be an unfair game, and it's especially unfair when it's just one man.  Someone like Jason Wade could get a barrel to the face on the third level, and bang he's done.  A person who just knows how to run the boards with top hammer would have too much of a chance to win.  It really does become random when it's just one man.
4) Your 4 quarters idea sort of ruins the keeping it short reason for the idea in the first place.   Some players will be playing over 6 to 8 hours on four quarters. 

If people want to do this, I propose a test run.  Have this done on the wildcard machines.  Keep the main competition, but have a mini wildcard competition.  If people love it, and it's a hit, than maybe have it as part of the main event for the next Kong Off.

[lakeman421]

3) Round 1 seems a tad bit unfair.  Donkey Kong can be an unfair game, and it's especially unfair when it's just one man.  Someone like Jason Wade could get a barrel to the face on the third level, and bang he's done.

That was the point of the bracket sir. Anything can happen in just one credit...

[homerwannabee]

3) Round 1 seems a tad bit unfair.  Donkey Kong can be an unfair game, and it's especially unfair when it's just one man.  Someone like Jason Wade could get a barrel to the face on the third level, and bang he's done.

That was the point of the bracket sir. Anything can happen in just one credit...

Yeah, but 4 men is a whole lot different than 1 man.  True, anyone can have a bomb out game, but when it's reduced to one man it really does make it more random.

[Barra]

Yeah, but 4 men is a whole lot different than 1 man.  True, anyone can have a bomb out game, but when it's reduced to one man it really does make it more random.

But much, much more entertaining for the viewers

If I have a cab (which is looking likely) there is no way I'll be sitting there  for the full 2 days trying to grind out a big score. That's no fun for me nor anyone watching. Those not a part of the DK or CAG community don't know/care about the difference between 900k and 1.1m

Netherworld did it really well. I only played 3 credits the whole of Saturday, well under 3 hours of total play time.

I like your ideas, Dan. Definitely something to think about.

[homerwannabee]

How about eliminate round two, and have a combination of round one, and three.  Those who do the best on these go to the bracket on Sunday.

[homerwannabee]

That way you get the best of both worlds.  One man randomness which favors the lesser players, and four quarter which favors the better players.

[JCHarrist]

I don't hate the idea, but I think it's late in the game to be changing the format for this year. I understand the need to raise cash, but i think it would be poor form to charge people to play after they have already been invited to play for free.

[Barra]

Oh yeah definitely talking in terms of the next Kong Off(s). I'm sure no-one wants to change this years format.

[Sock Master]

If some custom version of DK is ever needed for Kong Off, it can totally be done.  I've got DK code reverse engineered and I can create special-feature/custom versions of DK ROMs.

Even something totally impossible seeming like making all 12 cabinets play *exactly* the same game - the same random things will happen in the same way at the same point for each and every player.  No-one would have unlucky RNG if it's identical for everyone.

Or special rules, special scenarios, etc.. for a quick competition round.   All on real hardware, no MAME required.

And the different versions/rulesets/whatever could be switched in or out or back to original PCB ROM between rounds without having to open up the cabs.

Anyway, just putting that out.  All sorts of stuff is possible but stuff like this takes considerable time to develop so it's not something I could whip up on short notice, so maybe it'd be something worth considering for the next KO.   But it is possible to create custom KO DK Remix kits that hold several custom versions of DK.

[Barra]

I was thinking some sort of DK randomizer. It throws you on an unknown screen and with the possibility of incorporating certain rules like no hammer, must get all prizes, etc etc. Throw in some remix screens

We could get really creative with this. Of course that means more work for you, Sock . And of course I have zero idea whether this would be even remotely achievable.

[dd0ck]

Comments in line.

OK, I guess I'll be the first to chime in.  First, I had to watch the video twice to get a full understanding of what your proposal was in full.  It's definitely innovative, and different, but there are a couple of problems I see. 

1)This will created confusion.  You, yourself seemed confused on how to proceed with round 2.
   -Other tournaments are run in leagues (pinball is run this way? I've been told), the qualifying round is more for casual players to get a chance to play. We could give invited players byes so they are automatically in round 2. I'm really looking for input on the second round on the optimal size of the league and how people would want to see it run.  The playoffs and the finals could be merged into the final round if that makes sense. Or the playoffs could be straight Donkey Kong, single or double elimination--since they'll be plenty of cabs.

2) Round 2 will be hard to set up.  You'd probably would have to have a whole bunch of laptops to do these MAME save states.
   -You only need 2 or 4 (depending on league size) running the competition cabs, and they can be used as standard cabs in other rounds.  You setup two cabs running MAME with the same subset of save states, and just load them on both at the same time. Grab two keyboards and load the same state simultaneously, thinking something like 20-30 save states would suffice to make it fair and just have them randomly chosen.  We can timebox/plan it since both players will be playing simultaneously and will play a max of three boards with less than a full bonus timer.

3) Round 1 seems a tad bit unfair.  Donkey Kong can be an unfair game, and it's especially unfair when it's just one man.  Someone like Jason Wade could get a barrel to the face on the third level, and bang he's done.  A person who just knows how to run the boards with top hammer would have too much of a chance to win.  It really does become random when it's just one man.
  -I'm not too worried about good players qualifying. You actually get two men (if you can get past 7,000). And byes are always an option.  Or players can try until the league is full.

4) Your 4 quarters idea sort of ruins the keeping it short reason for the idea in the first place.   Some players will be playing over 6 to 8 hours on four quarters.
  -We can reduce it to single or double elimination in the finals, but I just think the finals should be stock Donkey Kong.  Four quarters is basically an exotic form of quadruple elimination. I don't think the finals should be cut short.

If people want to do this, I propose a test run.  Have this done on the wildcard machines.  Keep the main competition, but have a mini wildcard competition.  If people love it, and it's a hit, than maybe have it as part of the main event for the next Kong Off.

[dd0ck]

So let’s assume that there are sixteen players in two leagues of eight in round two. If each player plays each other once, that’s 28 matches in each league. So 56 total. If a board takes about 2-2.5 minutes to complete, that’s 4-7.5 minutes a match—it can end in two rounds, or drag onto three, let’s ignore deaths/forfeitures which will bring this number down.  Let’s assume something like 10 minutes a match to be more realistic, that’s about 560 minutes of just playtime. Let’s say ten hours, just on matches. (If we run these matches at the same time, it’s five hours for the entire round.)

Seems doable with just two cabs, and IRL will probably take 11-12 hours. Playoffs and finals could be the final day.

[homerwannabee]

Hmm, four quarter finals?  Eh, that's a snooze fest.  I thought you were talking about qualifying.  Robbie's and Wes' Donkey Kong game last year in the finals shows why it's good the way it's at.  That was a classic.  Having a four game final is NOT the way to go.

[dnickolas]

Maybe just have each game be divided up into 3 parts. 1 point for level one total (barrel and rivet combined), 2 points for total start score (end of level 4 despite deaths), and 3 points for total game score. Then it’s still one game, but there is another metric for watchers to track. “Oh robbie is behind 3-0 going into the game part, let’s see if he can get the total score win.”

Then if it’s tied it’s one board on a save state. L5 elevator, say, for a race to the finish.

That, or just put the killscreen at level 7 and save a couple hours of play time.

There are lots of things one could do to shorten the contest, and I’m not sure what people even want to see. Even here we probably have disagreements over who is “better” at this game. Is the guy with a million who died in level 17 and never ksed worse than the guy with a 1.10 ks?