Donkey Kong Forum
High Score Lists => Donkey Kong High Score Lists => Topic started by: xelnia on May 08, 2014, 06:43:10 am
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A legitimate question has been raised as to whether scores achieved through the RetroUprising site can be submitted and accepted here at DKF. Currently we are accepting Crazy Kong scores from RU but NOT scores for Donkey Kong. The purpose of this thread is to have a community discussion and come up with a community decision regarding these scores. In the interest of full disclosure, some of the RU members that are interested in submitting to DKF are moderators on that forum and are regular members here. They have access to in-house score verification methods at RU that we won't have.
According to the List Submission Rules (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=365.0) for Donkey Kong the only acceptable version of MAME for submissions is WolfMAME. RU uses their own build of MAME. WolfMAME disallows pauses or throttling while recording, however these actions are still possible while recording on RU. The moderators at RU are able to check recordings for pauses and throttling, however this is an in-house process and is not directly accessible by the moderators here at DKF.
Here are the three main issues I see and my personal opinions regarding each:
1) Pauses
It is necessary to put players on a level field, especially since we choose to mix Arcade and MAME scores. RU scores should not be accepted if they contain pauses. Currently I know of no way to directly and independently detect pauses. This means a level of trust and dependence on the RU moderators is needed should they be willing to share this information.
2) Throttling
This involves changing the speed of the game while playing. Normally this would be utilized at start-up to skip all the intro scenes. Again, this issue involves putting all players on as level of a field as possible. WolfMAME disallows this action while recording and Arcade players don't have the luxury. Recorded speed CAN be independently verified.
3) Access to INPs
Any MAME score submitted to DKF needs to include the INP. This is an absolute deal-breaker for me. We must be able to independently view the game in question. I'm not sure if it is possible to access another player's INP from the RU site, but players can access their own INPs and would be able to submit them to DKF.
My opinion is that if we can independently verify that a game contains no pauses or throttling and also have access to the INP we should be able to determine that a score is legitimate and achieved without any special advantage. It has been suggested that RU scores be streamed live as another verification method.
Although I am a "high score moderator" I am not a rule-maker. This needs to be a community decision. What does the community have to say? I encourage RU members to take part in the discussion!
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3) Access to INPs
Any MAME score submitted to DKF needs to include the INP. This is an absolute deal-breaker for me. We must be able to independently view the game in question. I'm not sure if it is possible to access another player's INP from the RU site, but players can access their own INPs and would be able to submit them to DKF.
Actually anybody who has donated to RU can view and download any verified INP from RU.
Also it is MAME 135 build.
I will also consider the outcome of this to be automatically applied to the JNR list
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I noticed a very slight lag when I played DK on RU. Anyone else notice this? I don't know if it was my setup or I'm just sensitive or it's just in my head. Obviously this is a disadvantage. Since the HSL mixes MAME/arcade/triple DK I don't see a problem including RU scores.
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I think I can understand both sides of this argument.
On one hand, it's great to include more scores into the HSL and more players into the DKF community.
On the other hand, I have some reservations. They are not using WolfMAME, which has been the standard for so long for a very good reason. Accepting scores from something besides WolfMAME is quite a precedent. If we donate to RU, can we verify that no pauses were used in the INP, or does this still require a level of trust from their moderator team? If it requires a level of trust, that seems like a dealbreaker because a lot of cloak and dagger stuff can go on like with TG.
Also, and I mean no disrespect to the players on RU, but I believe I only saw two killscreen scores and both of those players already have a significantly higher PB recognized on DKF. #3 and below I believe would not even crack the top 100. I don't believe scores that would be this low on the HSL demand us changing our stance on WolfMAME.
I noticed a very slight lag when I played DK on RU. Anyone else notice this? I don't know if it was my setup or I'm just sensitive or it's just in my head. Obviously this is a disadvantage. Since the HSL mixes MAME/arcade/triple DK I don't see a problem including RU scores.
It was most likely not in your head. I can only play Defender on one obscure version of MAME due to input lag issues with almost every other build.
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i think if we allow it for ck then we should allow it for dk lit
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I noticed a very slight lag when I played DK on RU. Anyone else notice this? I don't know if it was my setup or I'm just sensitive or it's just in my head. Obviously this is a disadvantage.
I had the same problem, and it seemed to be fixed by changing the window's priority in task manager, so maybe that will work for others.
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With mame being so easy to obtain I don't see a real need to include RU in the equation (not sure why it is for CK missed that topic). Plus like it was said there are no scores on it at this time even necessary. If we just want to branch out and give people an option maybe but then someone needs to donate/download the inp and verify it for any pause inputs (Which how do you do that?)
Dan
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When starting the CK list I had the idea to combine the 3 existing scoreboards Aurcade Tg and RU plus any submissions here, this was done to get the most accurate list that I could,
At the time a lot of the same questions arose,
At this point Josephjho offered to check the scores for pausing, of which 2 scores were removed from the list for using pauses, he also sent me a screen shot of the data that mods have access to on RU.
This shows pauses, length if recording and other bits of info.
I will post a link at some stage but im on a phone now so can't do much.
I have donated there so I am able to download the inp files should the need arise.
When played back through mame it does give an average recorded speed but does not say if it was paused.
I haven't downloaded an inp with a pause in it so I am not sure what happens when watching but I'll assume it doesn't pause when being played back. I'll check later tho.
Basically the way I see it is yes we will be putting some trust in the RU mods but is this any different to the trust placed in Scott, Jry and myself?
I think between Barra and Joey we have 2 people that have offered to help and I personally believe them to be honest and trustworthy people. (Not something an Aussie says about kiwis and poms Easley)
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One thing I have always believed about the high score list is that scores should merit different levels of scrutiny based on where the performance will rank.
In other words, a kill screen submission should demand more rigor than a 200K submission, a million point game more than a kill screen, and a new world record ought to be scanned under a microscope.
Some of you I know would disagree strongly with that way of thinking, and would say that this is unfair and that the same rules should apply to everyone. Maybe it brings back a bad taste in your mouth from the "live million only" era. In terms of ideals, I agree with you. It's impure. But in terms of real-world practicality, it just makes a lot more sense, for many reasons, to not put as much verification effort into scores below a certain threshold.
So maybe the way to do this would be to have a threshold for RetroUprising scores? Like, if it's less than a kill screen, or 500K, or whatever, you can get your score on the DKF HSL, but if you want to go bigger than that, you need a Wolf INP.
For what it's worth, I, personally, would be super-lax with a HSL and I would be okay with you guys going in a lax direction. Why? Because I think more scores = better. I want a DK HSL with a thousand names on it. Toward that end, it should be as easy as possible. Almost to the point of taking scores on peoples' word alone if they're below 800K.
Generally speaking, I trust people unless I can smell a motive for shenanigans (which I've definitely smelled from a few folks, both on and not-on the HSL currently, but those cases are rare. Only three come to mind, actually.) The vast majority of DK submissions are on the up-and-up. Cheating and/or lying and/or embellishing has really not been a problem, and tends to scream alarm bells when somebody's being shady. Virtually every player who has a big score on the HSL has proven that they're capable of the score next to their name either in person or live stream (with one mega-notable exception). That being the case, I don't think "more relaxed" is a bad way to go.
So I say thumbs up to RU, with a 800K-or-lower restriction, and 800K+ requiring special verification on the INP with documentation from the RU admins.
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I hope that I am understanding the question correctly.
I believe that one of the strengths of the HSL is that it is credible. In which case I believe that any movement of the criteria towards the more lax'ed side of the spectrum will weaken its credibility.
And I do not think that a more liberal movement is even necessary in this situation. So what is real issue here? Through the development of the list there has not been any movement in this regard, nor reversals of established criteria. In fact, there has been great growth and development in expanding upon additional means for greater allowance while maintaining the normative rules, with our auxiliary rules. For example, the inp rule was to allow us access, to be able to address certain concerns. So we required the inp for window capture streaming only. Then we saw fit, in the light of Robbie's score, which is no longer relevant, but the case is useful, that whatever concerns that we had which required the inp, could those same concerns be met by additional evidences. Could we ask ourselves the same questions here?
The scores that are contained on the list have passed through a certain level of scrutiny. Unlike Chris, and having constructed the rules for the list in the past, I maintain that all scores should pass through the same level of scrutiny. Obviously, Chris's comment about paying additional attention to the higher scores is important, and more time asking questions concerning them is prudent. When someone looks at our list, I want them to have the highest level of certainty that we put each score through a decent level of scrutiny. Someone attempting to break 200K should feel like they beat a true score that has passed through the same level of scrutiny and that their advancement on the list has greater relevance.
From the comments below, we have access to the inp files at RU through those with access. And from what I understand there may not be too many scores from RU. (Correct me if I am wrong).
I do not think it wise to merely accept the verification of those at RU. I do think that we should verify these scores. What about TG scores? Don't we accept a score for simply being on TG?
I see two issues that need to be discussed. 1) Since we accept TG scores, are we not trusting the verification of others? 2) Why did we determine to stick with WolfMAME as the only acceptable emulator? What were the concerns? Can those concerns be addressed through additional evidences?
Besides, if we determined to work out an expansion upon our criteria, it would be wise to add an additional designation on the list. MAME is now used for WolfMAME, so we would not want to mix them.
I believe that since we have "connections" with TG through our blanket acceptance of those scores given their criteria, it would equally be advantageous for us to seek out ways to connect with other gaming/score keeping entities. Doing so would only assist the DKF in its support of gaming, and the over all encouraging for high scores.
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I voted "Yes", as long as we have:
- Access to the INP files
- The tools to verify them independently
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I voted "Yes", as long as we have:
- Access to the INP files
- The tools to verify them independently
Ditto^
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Would someone at RU not be able to tell us how to check mame 135 inps for pauses? Or figure it out for ourselves?
8)
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Here's a copy of what I have been shown for RU submissions.
This particular game is for for Tim's CK submission
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Sorry for the long post. Some points are probably stated more than once.
In the interests of full disclosure, and for those unaware, JosephJo and myself (Barra) are moderators at RU. I raised this issue with Jeremy as we are both aiming for a DK killscreen and we would love to have our scores included (as well as everyone elses, of course) in the DKF HSL. I am posting on behalf of the both of us (JosephJo feel free to chime in if I have missed something).
We have both not voted on the poll to eliminate any potential bias.
They are not using WolfMAME, which has been the standard for so long for a very good reason. Accepting scores from something besides WolfMAME is quite a precedent. If we donate to RU, can we verify that no pauses were used in the INP, or does this still require a level of trust from their moderator team? If it requires a level of trust, that seems like a dealbreaker because a lot of cloak and dagger stuff can go on like with TG.
Correct, we do not use WolfMAME. However, we do use a version that is at least as good, if not better, than WolfMAME. This is a direct quote from the creator of RU and AOX:
We have all of the security that WolfMAME has plus more. WolfMAME is easier to hack than our version.
If you donate, you will be able to watch submissions that are verified. You will have access to the INPs. You will be able to independently verify if there is throttling, but not if there are pauses.
. I don't believe scores that would be this low on the HSL demand us changing our stance on WolfMAME.
The point of this discussion is to be able to verify any future scores, not ones that are there now.
For the record, there are 3 players' scores (other than Ben's, Tim's and Jason's) that would break the top 100.
With mame being so easy to obtain I don't see a real need to include RU in the equation.
RU (AOX) is much easier to use than MAME. I used MAME for 8 years before I found RU. No need to download ROMs or emulators. The playing field is more even with everyone using the same version and same ROMs.
In addition, I am sure DKF wants the complete and unprecedented high score list for Donkey Kong (and variations). Why would they not want to include scores?
From the comments below, we have access to the inp files at RU through those with access. And from what I understand there may not be too many scores from RU. (Correct me if I am wrong).
Correct, anyone who has donated will have permanent access to watch scores.
At the current time there arent many scores, but this is looking toward the future in the case that people improve their scores and make a significant contribution to the HSL here.
I do not think it wise to merely accept the verification of those at RU.
I agree. A separate scoreboard warrants its own verification. We would like to aid in this verification.
I will reiterate what I have said above by addressing the three issues outlined in the original post:
1) Pauses
It is necessary to put players on a level field, especially since we choose to mix Arcade and MAME scores. RU scores should not be accepted if they contain pauses. Currently I know of no way to directly and independently detect pauses. This means a level of trust and dependence on the RU moderators is needed should they be willing to share this information.
We are willing to share any and all information about pauses on RU DK submissions. We can show you this either through a photo as Nick has shown above, or even better by live stream so you can see no tampering has occurred.
2) Throttling
This involves changing the speed of the game while playing. Normally this would be utilized at start-up to skip all the intro scenes. Again, this issue involves putting all players on as level of a field as possible. WolfMAME disallows this action while recording and Arcade players don't have the luxury. Recorded speed CAN be independently verified.
This should not be an issue as you can independently verify this.
3) Access to INPs
Any MAME score submitted to DKF needs to include the INP. This is an absolute deal-breaker for me. We must be able to independently view the game in question. I'm not sure if it is possible to access another player's INP from the RU site, but players can access their own INPs and would be able to submit them to DKF.
You can either:
1 - Let us provide you with the INP for a game wanting to be submitted here, or
2 - Donate to RU and have the ability to watch all verified submissions across the site (and have access to the INPs)
I 100% agree that you should have access to the INP.
It has been suggested that RU scores be streamed live as another verification method.
I dont think this should be a requirement for normal submissions.
However, PERSONALLY, I will require a live stream of my OWN DK submission before submitting to you guys. This is to remove any potential bias or "cloak and dagger" accusations etc, being that I am a Mod. This removes ANY doubt regarding pauses, throttling etc etc.
For any other submissions (ie non-mod), I dont think this should be required.
So basically, in conclusion, DKF would have to place a reasonable amount of trust upon JosephJo and myself but I dont think this is too much to ask for. DKF should still always do their own verification, which we would like to aid in any way possible.
Lastly, I am personally a little disappointed in the amount of "no" votes without any justification or reasoning. If you have a problem with accepting RU scores, please by all means let us know why, it will only help with our discussion. No hard feelings will arise because of it.
Thanks
Andrew
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We can promote one of the DKF Mods to Donor over at RU, in order to have access to the INPs of any submission.
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That would be in addition to the following who all have the ability as Donors to access INP's
JCHarrist
xelnia
ebinsugewa
Monsta Bonza
gstrain
d3scride
D.B.Cooper
Fly
QAOP Spaceman
Nothing much to add to what Barra said earlier - in a nutshell we'd just like to help and be part of DKF.
Either way we'll be cool about the decision - there's far too much drama elsewhere within this hobby.
Thanks
~Julian
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I would just like to say a big thank you to Barra, Julian and Kong I assume for the kind offer of upgrading one of the HS mods to doner over at RU.
It is very much appreciated.
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voted Yes, under certain circumstances... since i dont see any reason not to trust the mods there who can check for pausing...
8)
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From the perspective to get more people involved I say go for it as it provides a valid method to play and get a score. Plus having the ability to validate the pauses is the only real concern I had which looks like its a no-brainer at this point so go for it! Kreygasm <Billy> <Tim> Kappa
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what does this all Mean fttttt..
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allen pls lol you dont have to worry about this discussion. we will let you know when we start accepting submissions from highscore.com Kappa
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ROFL
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Here at DKF, every member's input is valued. ::)
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I voted yes, although it would be nice if Kong would tweak the RU user interface so that everybody could see the Pause count and Recorded Speed info for all recordings.
Twin Galaxies scores are accepted on completely blind faith and with RU its easy for almost anybody to check everything accept the pause count themselves, and we have a couple of mods around to help with that. Frankly if we're voting I'd be interested to see a vote about whether we should be accepting TG scores that have no public evidence.
-George
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I think that good discussion has taken place here. George brings up an issue I touched upon which was the blind faith issue concerning TG, which is why I used to for this discussion. Although I don't have any scores that I would dispute except maybe billy's scores. It may have happened but two world records in one day on both DK and Junior just seems odd to me, not to mention the tape debacle, and the direct feed, which we would not accept. Any ways, we had discussed using WolfMAME only at one time and some basic issues were raised. I think that as long as those underlining issues were addressed it would comply with the reasons that underlined the WolfMAME only.
We could 1) Keep the WolfMAME only language in the normative rules, but make an allowance in the Auxiliary rules stating that other supporting evidences or validation process reasonably addresses original concerns. I did this concerning the INP requirement. In the normative rules it is required to have the INP, and that is what I wanted to have for verification. But then the "Lakeman Loophole" was created in the Auxiliary rules to allow other evidences to sufficiently address the same purpose for requiring the inp. This is also the only reason that Christian's score is on the list. We could do the same here. This would be my first choice.
Or 2) Simply "expand" the WolfMAME only to allow for the RU, provided that stipulations are mentioned in the Normative rules. This would be my second choice in my arm was twisted.
Traditionally, I would write up the ideal in the normative rules, and then provide possible allowances in the Auxiliary rules. However, we have not rejected any scores on other mame versions, but the allowance of RU then opens up the question concerning other emulators and therefore other scores found on MARP. It may be wise just to add a line to the auxiliary rules that briefly explains the relationship and describes the "other evidences" concept. That way we are not opening up completely to any and all emulators and can essentially retain the language of Wolfmame only in our normative rules because from what we discussed before there was a decent concensus that it is preferred.
Either way, we should be sure to specify RU or some other platform other than mame on the HSL, since mame is traditionally Wolfmame, unless it is an older TG submission. That way gamers and outsiders can see the MAME and RU platforms and can decide for themselves how comparable they are. They should not be coupled together in my opinion.
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The reason I would support an addition to the Auxiliary rules is because much of what is said in these rules is very applicable to what we are talking about. Take note of just a few:
Auxiliary Rules: The auxiliary rules were created to evaluate scores that could not be submitted according to the normative rules. It is understood that there are occasions where the normative rules were either unknown or could not be followed for one reason or another. These rules evaluate the evidence to determine if it is sufficient in order to verify a score with a high degree of certainty.
6. MARP submissions or any other INP’s are accepted. The .inp and .wlf files must be WolfMAME-only due to advantages allowed by other emulators. (It is encouraged that those who achieved there [TYPO should be their] performance with a recorded input alone are to stream their input file on Twitch.)
7. The requirement for .inp and .wlf files addresses the possible falsification of a streamed game. If for some reason the player does not record their input along with their stream then they must demonstrate other evidences to address these concerns. These concerns predominantly include window capture only streaming formats. These evidences include: 1) showing the start up process of the game by clicking on the game in WolfMAME so we can see it is being started by the WolfMAME program. 2) At the end of the game, after the initials are entered, start another game while the game is still running. 3) Using the monitor capture format or using a webcam facing your monitor will enable people to see that you do not have any video software open on the bottom of the screen and that you are actually starting and playing a game live on Twitch.
9. The cumulative effect of multiple evidences will also play a factor in the acceptance of a score even if those evidences are not adequate alone.
10. Additionally, and most importantly, all scores on this list must be peer-reviewed in one manner or another. All scores which are being submitted according to the Auxiliary Rules will be handled on case by case bases and must be peer-reviewed, and a general consensus must be given by the DK Community that the score is probably genuine.
We could then perhaps add the following:
11. Due to our established relationship with RetroUprising.com, the community has given general consensus concerning the acceptance of score submissions to RetroUprising provided that 1) the inp files are accessible and can be verified by DKF, 2) the game is replayed on youtube or twitch so that it is view-able by the entire community, 3) non-Wolfmame emulator does not offer any advantage and evidences can be offered to support these concerns, and 4) provided that the scores receive their own platform designation on the HSL.
I may not fully understand everything about RU so the wording above may not be complete in what it should say, but it is at least a start as to what this could look like as an addition to the Auxiliary rules.
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Thanks, Corey. I think those are great suggestions. With Jeff having added this thread as a highlight to the top of the DKF homepage, I'd say that maybe only a week or so of more time is needed before we can agree to move on and implement some of these changes -assuming the majority opinion remains as clear as it looks now. I'd like to hear some more of the thoughts of people who voted "no".
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I voted Yes, under certain circumstances (specify in the thread)
Generally Im fine with the idea but I also like the fact that most of the scores on the HSL provide inputs/vids/streams.
Best would be if every submitter streams their input file on Twitch or uploads a vid of it on YT to make sure that we all can watch the gameplay without having to register on a other site.
The rest would be up to the High Score Mods to verify the iputs.
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The poll has ended and it shows that the community is generally in favor of accepting scores from Retro Uprising. I am confident that the issues involved with using a non-WolfMAME emulator can, in this case, be addressed and that we will be able to hold RU scores to the appropriate standard. As always, the DKF High Score List should be a product of community consensus so there is no need for the discussion to end here. I'd like to hear more details from the "no" votes as to the reasoning behind their decision.
For now, a new Auxiliary Rule has been created to address scores obtained at Retro Uprising. I encourage everyone to review the List Submission Rules (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=365). Thank you all for your input!
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im surprised there were that many votes for no without 1 good reason being posted. i must have missed something
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I think in the rules, it should also note that by moving the window it will pause the game, and therefore not be allowed on the list.
I would hate for a score to be denied because someone didn't realise that moving the mame window would invalidate there attempt.