Donkey Kong Forum
Donkey Kong Strategy => Basic Donkey Kong Strategy => Topic started by: Martin Laing on July 13, 2013, 07:57:42 pm
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I have seen some games where the amount of time it takes to collect bonus points uses up more time than the points are worth. Classic example is the elevator screen. It can take more than 800 time to collect the lower bonus points, which is worth 800 points. I have measured the time vs bonus points in a few situations; does anyone else do this? Why go for bonus points if it takes longer than the bonus time?
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Ive noticed the same thing, which is why I never collect the point prizes on elevator stages since you have to wait for the springs,
Even if you collect the left hand side prize and the middle lower platform prize you still need to wait to avoid the fireball make it up to the safe zone and deal with springs and maybe retreating, the points would often be the same or a few extra or less, give or take a hundred or two (depending on the spring wait time/retreats).
That said I still see even the better top hammer players grab the prizes so I wonder if there is more to it than meets the eye.
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In pure "time vs. points", it's always worth it to go for the bottom prize on the rivets and all three prizes on the elevators if you're not held up by the fireball.
The decision to grab those prizes is all about risk vs. reward. I don't think even Dean grabs the bottom rivet prize after Level 4.
The elevators are a different story. More advanced players can chime in on this (and I hope they do), but my theory is that if you've made the decision to go for the hat on the elevators (bottom prize), then you have to seal the deal even if the fireball holds you up. You can't know you've made the "wrong" decision until you've made it, and then you need the prize points to make up for the time deficit. You won't have to wait much longer than 8 timer tickers if the fireball screws you, so you can nearly offset that with the prize and only be down 1 or 2 timer tickers from the time it takes to jump back and forth to that platform.
You can't know if you'll get held up at the top of the first elevator either. The fireball may camp at the top of the double-ladder platform and you'll have to bail out to the umbrella platform and wait. So, might as well grab that prize too.
The purse is much riskier, but also worth the time it takes to get there, even if the fireball holds you up. You can leech the fireball and every spring. Since there is 1 spring per tick of the timer, you can easily make up the few timer tickers it takes to jump in and out of position near the purse.
On level 4+, a "speed run" to the top that uses the "top shelf" jump and the perfect spring combination gets you somewhere around 6700. A full 3-prize run with no delays can get you at least 8100. I only tried these a few times, so I'm sure someone has more exact figures. Over 18 elevator levels (L4-L21), that's 120,600 vs. 145,800...a potential difference of 25,200 points.
So, how many points do you want? ;D
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Here are some numbers I came up with while playing around in WolfMAME .106. The list below shows how many frames, on average, it took me to get to the top of the ladder that leads to the springs girder. Not Pauline's ladder, but the ladder where you finally have to wait for the springs and is considered the first "safe spot." I'm no killscreener, but this isn't a particularly difficult set of moves to make so I'm very confident that these numbers are very close. However, this was not done with frame-advance, so I'm sure each of these times could be shaved down.
No prizes, top shelf jump: 581
No prizes, lower shortcut: 586
Left side prizes, top shelf jump: 793
Left side prizes, lower short cut: 914
All three prizes, top shelf jump: 1059
All three prizes, lower shortcut: 1157
Level 2 timers move at 100 frames per tick, level 3 timers move at 80 frames per tick, and level 4+ timers move at 60 frames per tick. These don't include barrel timers. That means on level 2 you're always going to lose 500-600 points, on level 3 you'll lose 700-800 points, and on level 4+ you'll always lose 900-1000 points.
On level 2, if you grab both left side prizes without a fireball delay it only takes another ~333 frames to get into position. That's only another 300-400 points off the timer...which is made up by the 1000 points in prizes.
Here's how I think it all shakes out (again, advanced players please chime in here if you have better numbers). 2P = 2 left prizes, 3P = all three prizes. TS = top shelf jump.
Path Positive Point Differential
Level 2
2P - no TS 600
2P - TS 800
3P - no TS 900
3P - TS 1000
Level 3
2P - no TS 1200
2P - TS 1400
3P - no TS 1700
3P - TS 1800
Level 4+
2P - no TS 1000
2P - TS 1200
3P - no TS 1400
3P - TS 1600
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If everything goes right, I can grab the left side prizes and finish the level with 5500-5800 left on the timer. I have also grabbed all three prizes and finished with 5200 on the timer. If you can efficiently run the elevator boards then grabbing the prizes makes a difference. When I grab the left side prizes I try to finish the board by the time its at 4500, because I feel that is breaking even as oppose to not grabbing the prizes and finishing with 6100 on average. But in the long run I end up on top if I have been running them efficiently, so it makes it well worth it.
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The important thing is to AVERAGE higher points, not necessarily to ALWAYS gain points. There are various strategies for the prizes on elevators but every strategy will SOMETIMES lose points. As long as you are netting positive on average it is worthwhile in the long run.
BTW Martin congrats on your killscreen.
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Hank, I am unfamiliar with a killscreener named, Martin. Did he just get a killscreen? I don't see a Martin on the list of killscreeners or your list. Hank, I wanted to communicate to you that we have two new killscreeners that you can put on your list of killscreeners.
863,200 Christian Van Meter
861,800 Brian Allen
Recently I got another killscreen scoring 964,500
EDIT: Maybe you meant Robbie?
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Martin is the person who started this thread. I learned of his killscreen on facebook a few days ago. I haven't been updating my list as I can no longer edit my post on CAGDC. There are a bunch of scores that need updating on my list as well.
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Sorry to hear that Hank, it is still a good source of information which I have attached to the DK High Score List, and has influenced the way I track this information as well.
Martin, nice to have you on the forum and great job on that killscreen. I sent you a friend request on facebook, and recommended some friends for you as well. I also sent you a personal message congratulating you on the killscreen and introducing myself.
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Thanks guys, finally getting the kill-screen was awesome - my 9 year old boy was in bed next door to me so a ran and grabbed him to come see level 22 (this was at 10.30pm). I have uploaded to MARP, and will likely submit to TG once have some money (saving for a trip to Rarotonga).
Thanks for the feedback on time vs bonus too. Hank, I notice on barrels when standing in the safe spot on the far right on the 2nd from top platform you will sometimes jump after a barrel if it goes down the ladder, then you will climb up. So that's 100 points but it looks like 100 bonus off timer plus a fraction of a second. I could be wrong on with the time as quite close.
Just while I think of it; does anyone jump continuously before or after "pies" on the factory level. I noticed this was a way to gain points like jumping near spring, though dangerous as a slight touch kills. I find I can follow a "pie" and jump and then when it changes direction I can either jump it and then follow again, or stay in front, and get quite a few points. I haven't started adding this to my game play yet and focussed on kill screen.
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I uploaded wrong files to MARP so just getting it sorted now.
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Here is zip file. Hopefully will get sorted on MARP.
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Martin, the idea of jumping after a barrel is to snag the extra 100 points. Every time kong releases a barrel the timer goes down, grabbing the 100 off the barrel makes up for the lose on the timer.
Jumping a pie or two while you wait on the conveyor is ok, but trying to point press the pies is not practical, in my opinion.
Thanks for the inp, I will take a look later. Here is the place where you can post your future Score Submissions: https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=364.0 (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=364.0)
Also, I have some great training videos at: https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=277.msg4412#msg4412 (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=277.msg4412#msg4412)
Once again, thanks for being here.
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Really? OK Give me a few minutes and I will check this all out. Getting frustrated now...
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Martin, that was my mistake. Sorry, I uploaded the wrong inp, now you got me confused. lol I deleted my message but not in time before you saw it.
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So it is the correct inp now? I really need to delete old inp and zip files once I get a new high score. Ok, so I am starting to get the idea of jumping after the barrel, that makes sense now.
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Nice first man, deep into 600K. That spring death on lv. 20 must have got you a bit nervous, perhaps the death was due to being nervous too. But you got to the with a score of 862,500! Great game.
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The files are correct now. Hey, if you didn't jump after the barrel then you lose the 100. If this is done on the 5th girder before going up then the on-coming barrels will all be jumped so you will ultimately net the 100 points. I show some of this on the jumping barrels portion of the Point Pressing section in part 2 of my barrel training video. :)
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Martin, your score has been updated: https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=366.0 (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=366.0)
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That spring death was frustrating. Over the last 2-3 months I am finding I am not moving far enough right to then head up ladder, hence it looks like I sometimes stall. I was also starting to 2nd guess myself for a split second as to where the springs land. Went through a period a while back feeling invincible on springs! Had a bit of luck overall, didn't feel any of the pie stages were too difficult (for a change).
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Hank, I notice on barrels when standing in the safe spot on the far right on the 2nd from top platform you will sometimes jump after a barrel if it goes down the ladder, then you will climb up. So that's 100 points but it looks like 100 bonus off timer plus a fraction of a second. I could be wrong on with the time as quite close.
Yeah as Corey is saying this doesn't really gain any points; it's more like stops you from losing 100 points. Leeching that extra 100 doesn't slow me from finishing the board so there's no downside.
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Have done a bit of testing:
Level 1:
Rivets
Bottom 300 bonus points can be gained by collecting straight away then heading up ladder before first fireball appears (most of the time), with only a tick off the clock. Worth the risk on level 1. The right hand and top left 300 bonus points can be gained through the natural collection of rivets.
Level 2:
Elevator
All bonus points worth 500. If the fireball comes down straight away and then goes back up straight away then it is about 500 to 600 points off clock to collect points. So the bottom bonus works out about even in that situation. If you get bottom bonus and then back on elevator it takes 200 time so you are up 300 points. Likewise if you are able to get top left and top right bonus and then get back to same position it uses about 200 off the time, so in both cases you are up in points.
Rivets
Bottom 500 bonus points can be gained by collecting after first fireball then heading up ladder before second fireball appears. Most of the time you don’t have to wait more than 100 time, though can take longer. The right hand and top left 500 bonus points can be gained through the natural collection of rivets.
Level 3:
Pie
All bonus points worth 800. If all goes to plan collecting the bottom and right hand bonus will happen as you skip up the right side of the screen. If it turns to custard then; if standing at top of right hand ladder of middle platform it takes 300 off the time to get left hand bonus and back to same point = 500 points gained. And if standing at top of left hand ladder of middle platform it takes 500 off the time to get right hand bonus and back to same point = 300 points gained.
Will work on other situations soon.
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Getting both of the left-side prizes on the elevators is absolutely worth it.
Once you have achieved maximum efficiency at this part of the screen with respect to what the fireball is doing, grabbing the prizes will have a high long term positive expectation, no matter how good or bad you are on the springs themselves (since that part of the screen "cancels out").
Or, to put it another way, if you care about points/pace at all - that is, if you're not just going for a barebones kill screen or speed run - it's actually a fairly significant mistake NOT to grab these prizes.
Why?
First, the points are risk-free. It is not possible to die getting these prizes unless you make one of two mistakes. The two mistakes are (1) mis-timing the fireball and (2) jumping incorrectly from the "umbrella platform" back onto the elevator. But it isn't too hard to get these two things nailed down to virtual perfection.
Second, if you should die on a spring, the prizes act as "death insurance." There are many terrible things about dying on springs, but one of the worst is that, unless you get the prizes, they're "zero deaths." If you're gonna die, it will sting a little less knowing that you at least picked up 1,600 points for the death.
So yes, you should get them.
If the left prizes net you just 900 points per level on average over an entire game (starting at L4), that's over 16,000 cumulative points. That's the equivalent of quite a few bottom hammers and/or groupings under Kong.
Consider the risk, planning, and time involved in those bottom hammers/grouping melees, in comparison to the relative (almost patternable) ease of grabbing the prizes. It's not even close.
And if you're going for a million, not getting these is a sin!
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haha, pop quiz, who scored a million without bothering to get the elevator prizes?
8)
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Yeah, I don't take my own advice half the time either. :D
I'm just putting that there for the responsible players!
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Good break down Chris of the elevator screen.
Haven't had a chance run time trials on other screens yet, too busy writing student reports and marking.