Donkey Kong Forum

High Score Lists => Donkey Kong High Score Lists => Topic started by: corey.chambers on July 05, 2013, 06:19:09 pm

Title: DK Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on July 05, 2013, 06:19:09 pm
Donkey Kong High Score List Submission Rules
for all scores submitted to the Main HSL (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=366.0), Level 1-1 HSL (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=390.0), Start HSL (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=446.0), No-Hammer HSL (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=389.0), No-Killscreen HSL (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=398.0), and Wild Barrel Hack HSL (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=405.0)

Please review the rules below before submitting.

Submission Thread (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=365.0)


Rules last updated: March 31, 2021 12:19 AM MST, by xelnia

A. Game Settings

B. Platform

1. Arcade

2. MAME

C. Evidence

1. Arcade

2. MAME

D. Special
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: cheetah33p on July 05, 2013, 10:53:23 pm
Very awesome Job Corey and Jeff!  All explained awesome!  :-). 
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on July 07, 2013, 09:12:33 pm
Question: In the rules, when I mention new players to briefly show us some parts of their cab I mention the "underside of the control panel with 4-way restrictor plate". I think this came up before but for the life of me I don't remember when or where it my be in the monster General thread. (Sure wish there was a quick and practical way of pulling out single submission posts etc, so I could create new topics to get that thing organized and into multiple new threads). I may have slipped this language into the rules without remembered what we may have discussed. I think someone said that as long as they use the original nintendo joystick with the four-way restrictor and the pcb is real that it would constitute as an Arcade submission. Though I think I know at least one person that may play with a ms pacman joystick, and I am pretty sure that the machine that Svarar played on was a multi-cab that may not have had the nintendo joystick with 4-way restrictor... hmm. I mean, what is the point of an original power supply too because I know that Ethan has a newer power supply.

I don't think I ever officially decided what would be considered an Arcade submission. Some may have a mame cab with different types of joysticks, and some use a joystick on their computer. So if someone is using the TKG-4 pcb, and they happen not to have a fourway restrictor, then is this any different than a joystick that one could be using with mame on their computer? There does not seem to be a hard and fast rule. I mean, what if one player's score is higher than another, both were on an Arcade, but the one with the lower of the two scores was done with a 4 way restrictor.

Is this a level playing field for an Arcade submission? 

Another question to ask along these lines has to do with the platforms. We have one for MAME, and we have on for Arcade, and I added the Arcade(multi) next to Svarar's to ensure people knew it was not an original TKG-4 pcb, but rather a multi-board. Maybe the Arcade designation can be for those that fit an "Arcade Criteria" and then those cabs that don't fit that criteria will be on the list as something other than Arcade, or MAME. What do you guys think?

EDIT: I mean, if we did an "Arcade Criteria" then we could maybe have a minimum requirement of an original TKG-4 pcb and an original or reproduction of the nintendo joystick with the four-way restrictor. But I need all you to chime in on this possible distinction for the list.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: ChrisP on July 07, 2013, 09:36:59 pm
My thoughts:

1. The four-way should not be a requirement. As has been discussed elsewhere, anything other than a four-way is gonna hurt way more than it helps! I had an 8-way restrictor on my joystick for a short time while waiting for the 4-way and it was awful. The concern, for example, that one could "steer while climbing" with an 8-way by using the diagonals is not valid. DK doesn't acknowledge simultaneous directional inputs. You're either pushing up, left, right, or down - there is no "up-right" or "up-left."
EDIT (two years later): as it turns out, I was incorrect about this, at least in part. While I still think it's much harder to play with an 8-way, on an arcade machine you can indeed hit two directions simultanously, register two inputs, and do "steer-climbs". I was basing my assertion that you couldn't on tests I did in MAME. What I didn't know at the time is that for DK (and other 4-way games) it's hardcoded into MAME to only register one directional input at a time.

I think people should be allowed to submit using whatever controls work best for them because nobody has ever identified a control setup that would give an advantage in DK (except the old "keyboard vs. joystick" debate, where the keyboard can add a tiny bit of precision at the very, very highest skill levels of play).

2. The power supply thing is something that PSP added to the requirements when he was with TG because he noticed sometimes that certain elements of the game (the pie boards specifically) behaving strangely with certain new power supplies. I don't like this rule either. It's an extra layer of needless bureaucracy, IMO. If the power supply makes the game glitchy, it will be apparent in the gameplay. Certainly won't give anybody an advantage, in any case.

3. I like "Arcade(multi)". I think it says everything it needs to say!

4. The board is worth thinking about though, because the TKG-3s DO offer an advantage in the form of the ladder cheat. However, the title screen on the TKG-4s say "(C) 1981 Nintendo of America," whereas the TKG-3s say "(C) 1981 Nintendo", so there's no need to show the physical board because the title screen will make clear which version is running.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on July 12, 2013, 08:09:30 pm
Good thoughts, Chris.

Here are some more questions:

I enabled cheats in MAME and then clicked play and record input. Then I turned off cheats, even moved the cheat.dat file to a different location, and then replayed the inp and it played. The inp playback did not show me going into the settings to enable the cheat. Therefore, if someone submits only an inp, then someone will have to watch every second of it to ensure that invincibility was not enabled on the springs and then shut off. There must be an easier way. How does MARP submissions work? Cheats are not allowed as I understand it but how do they know without watching every second of the game. IF there is no easy solution and the inp must be watched completely, then who would be interested in assisting me with inp verification. I can check the checksum etc, but I don't think that I can watch absolutely every second of every inp. I could require it to be streamed on Twitch and hope at least someone watched it and would report any problems, but then how does MARP handle their submissions? 
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Fast Eddie on July 12, 2013, 08:55:19 pm
i always thought 106 wouldnt let you enable cheats if recording, dont think i ever tried it though...

i think if you fast forward the game and it gets to the end ok that should be fine. if someone enables invincability to get past an enemy it will still kill them when you play it back...

 8)
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on July 12, 2013, 09:32:47 pm
I just witnessed this to be true. Good thinking. Thanks!
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on July 12, 2013, 10:06:50 pm
I have added the following Special Rules to the top of their respective High Score List:

No-Hammer: Special Rules: Score Submissions must not contain any use of the hammer for any reason, whether on purpose or accidental.

No-Killscreen: Special Rules: Score Submissions must reach and proceed after normal killscreen time.

Level 1-1: Special Rules: Score Submissions must be played on the first barrel board on level 1. The score must be achieved by one man only. You may achieve your score with any of your remaining men, it does not have to be achieved on your first man only. The board must be completed and the points accumulated during that completed run will be adjusted accordingly.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 02, 2013, 04:07:58 am
The following question has been proposed: Can you submit a score from a Bartop multigame cabinet? Here is the link that was shared: http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/bartop-arcade-machine-with-1440-classic-games/1025257302#photo-content (http://www.gumtree.com/p/for-sale/bartop-arcade-machine-with-1440-classic-games/1025257302#photo-content)

I am unfamiliar with this item. Has anyone seen anything like this?

Also, this is a good time to ask some other questions. If the only difference between a cocktail and upright is the location of the monitor, I don't see why anyone in the community would not accept a score on one of those. Obviously, any submissions on a newer cab would need to be seen just so we know and understand the cab and the particulars. Even if it was a cocktail with a TKG-3, well... we have never really specified this point. Are there any emulation differences between the TKG-3 and the TKG-4? Any reflections from the community?
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Fast Eddie on August 02, 2013, 10:21:34 am
TKG3 is the early version with the ladder cheat i think...

 8)
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 02, 2013, 11:06:06 am
Other than the ladder cheat are there any emulation differences at all? We can clearly see if someone uses a ladder cheat or not, but would require every moment of that game to be reviewed.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: up2ng on August 02, 2013, 01:18:37 pm
No, you can't do it that way.  In the correct version of DK, you CAN still survive by hanging out on a ladder and having the barrel roll over your head.  The key is that the survival rate is low when doing this on the correct version (but it's higher than zero).  So, just because you see someone use a "ladder cheat" move does NOT mean that they are using the incorrect version of the game.  Conversely, just because someone never uses such a move does NOT mean that they are using the correct version of the game.

There may or may not be other differences between versions of the game.  It's pretty much the one thing that keeps the legitimacy of any high score board is to make sure everyone is using the same software.  All of the other nonsense regarding power supplies, the shape of a cabinet, and to some extent even the controls that are used really don't matter -- but it DOES matter that we are all using the same software, which you can't necessarily tell just from witnessing the gameplay.

IMO, scores achieved using anything other than TKG4 should not be counted (or should be tracked completely seperately).
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 02, 2013, 02:04:57 pm
Thanks Dean. Though by "ladder cheat" I thought it was meant that one could go down the far right ladder on the 1st girder and come down from the top of the screen, lol. I may have misunderstood what was meant by "ladder cheat". We have allowed TKG-4 and the multi-pcb such as in the case of Svarar but it is listed in the format section, ,and is the only case. It was said that the multi-pcb emulates the TKG-4. What is the ladder cheat? And what is the TKG-3 in relation to emulation? If we have allowed the multi-pcb then that is why I wanted to know about the TKG-3. Of course, no one has made such a submission.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: up2ng on August 02, 2013, 02:50:04 pm
The different "versions" of Donkey Kong has been discussed a few times on older cagdc or TG threads and of course I can't really recall how to find them.  I'm also not much of a hardware guy and am much less familiar with the cabinet side of the hobby than most other members.  Note also that by "versions", I'm not speaking of obvious hacks or clones with different Titles or misspelled Titles or anything that wasn't licensed and copyrighted by Nintendo.

But even within Nintendo, there were apparently several different versions of the game released.  In fact, it's possible to find several different Manuals which cover some of them (someone in one of those old threads uploaded pdf scans of a few of these Manuals).  It became likely that there may actually be more versions of the game than many of us thought or realized.  It's possible that not all changes to the software were tracked with a seperate TKG number -- some of the earliest versions may not have even had a TKG number or may have been tracked by Nintendo another way.  There also exist anomalies out there such as the "hard chip" which a few active members here actually owned on their cabinets without realizing it at first -- where, for example, the Pie Factory and Rivet screens immediately behaved as if it was Level 5 right off the bat.  It's unclear whether this was actually released by Nintendo (as a mod for arcade owners to install to make their games harder to earn more quarters) or by some unknown third party.

There are also different hardware configurations -- for example, there are 2-chip sets and 4-chip sets and after reading some of these threads it wasn't clear to me whether or not this necessarily correlated with certain versions of the software or not.

One of the decisions that TG made, and which most of the players seemed to buy into, is that you could tell that the correct software was running by seeing "Nintendo of America" on the opening screen, as opposed to just "Nintendo".  It's not clear to me how accurate that really is, but it could be a good start anyway.

So, the issue is complicated, but I think it would generally be a mistake to be lax on this issue where scores on games that are played on different versions of the software get sort of lumped together on the same scoreboard.  I'm not sure what the "best" way is to make sure a game is legit, but it's important to know that there ARE other versions of DK out there that DO play differently and CAN impact scoring.  I'll leave the rest up to you and the others to research this issue further and to determine how you want to run your high score lists based on your findings.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Fast Eddie on August 02, 2013, 03:08:34 pm
the ladder cheat is where you can just chill right at the top of any ladder and all the barrels will roll by rather than come down on your head...

i believe TKG3 is emulated on the 'US set 2' rom, iv no idea if any multiboards use this set...

 8)

Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 02, 2013, 03:23:12 pm
Thanks guys. So for now we are only going to allow DK that is played on the TKG-4 and the multi-board cabs. If it is played on a TKG-4 it is listed as Arcade, and if it is played on a multi-board then it is listed as Arcade(multi). This is not new, this was already decided, I just had this question about the TKG-3 and other platforms that may emulate the game as the US Set 1. In fact the submission rules only states an original cab, and does not state TKG-4, so now I can add that. And as I have said before this list belongs to all of us. Not one change has been made to this list unless it was suggested, or not removed if contested. In fact, to date, nothing has ever been removed, but only clarifications offered.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: tom bradley on August 04, 2013, 06:22:54 am
Corey does this look eligible for submitting scores?

Arcade XS 2 Player Multi Game Arcade Machine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kotrafm83dY#ws)
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 04, 2013, 07:11:25 am
For Arcade submissions it would need the TKG-4 or multi-pcb.

For Mame submissions the Wolfmame program must be used.

This machine that you got may have a JAMMA multi-pcb. Note the last picture on this link: http://www.arcadomaniashop.com/Deluxe-19inch-TFT-2100-IN-1-XS-Arcade-Cabinet (http://www.arcadomaniashop.com/Deluxe-19inch-TFT-2100-IN-1-XS-Arcade-Cabinet)

So it is probably a 2100 in 1 multi-pcb. It has been supposed by the community in general that there are no emulation differences between the multi-pcb and the TKG-4 that uses the US Set 1. There has been no discussion about the kind of cabinet that the game must be played on such as an upright  verses a cocktail, or any other monitor/joystick configuration.

Take Svarar's submission for example, he used a multi-pcb, (the specifics about that pcb is unknown) but it was in an upright cab, and I am not sure the kind of joystick that was used. The position of the monitor has never been a question, and the kind of joystick that is used has never been limited to an original nintendo joystick with/without 4 way restrictor - because the game only takes one input at a time and I do not believe that no restrictor plate offers any advantage at all, but possibly a disadvantage.

We would need to see the JAMMA board on the inside to make sure. And see the game play with the "Nintendo of America" on the opening screen. JAMMA meaning "Japan Amusement Machine and Marketing Association" which is a kind of standard in Arcade machines.

If all the above is correct, I preliminary state that it will depend upon the responses of the community. If no responses are given, it will be interpreted as if they agree with the rules as they stand, or agree with how the rules here are being applied.

I have not decided the matter. If the software and hardware configuration of the pcb is the same as that of Svarar, then I don't think I could reject a submission simply because a different monitor and different joystick is being used in a much more conservative "cab".

I am open to any and all comments on the matter.

P.S. Maybe we should use the designations of Mame/Arcade/Mulit-PCB. Making the Arcade submission exclusively the TKG-4.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: tom bradley on August 04, 2013, 07:16:31 am
I'll learn more when It arrives but I'm pretty sure there's just a PC inside of the cabinet therefore it is just doing what any of us would do to play mame on a computer.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 04, 2013, 07:41:46 am
Tom, this would not help your case. If it is a JAMMA multi-pcb then that is a step in the right direction, but if it is a computer inside that is running any version of mame other than Wolfmame, then it is not eligible for a mame submission. I do not accept mame submissions from any other mame program other than Wolfmame. And depending on the type of computer, you may or may not be able to install wolfmame on it. But like I said, once you open the back we may find the JAMMA, like I shared in the link. We shall see.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: tom bradley on August 04, 2013, 08:12:46 am
Ah lets hope it is JAMMA then! But if you dont mind me asking why is woldmame the only version of mame that is allowed even though they all play the game the same way? Because it would be a real shame If I was unable to submit any of my scores.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Scoundrl on August 04, 2013, 08:38:09 am
Ah lets hope it is JAMMA then! But if you dont mind me asking why is woldmame the only version of mame that is allowed even though they all play the game the same way? Because it would be a real shame If I was unable to submit any of my scores.

Not allowing regular MAME submissions on this community driven list is about as silly as the current TG rule about power supplies (which of course is only a rule on paper and any submission using and power supply will be accepted).

If your machine is a PC based solution then with a little work you could set it up so that donkey kong runs wolfmame. Most all the front ends allow for using different different emulators tro run different titles. It may take soem tinkering but I am pretty confident it can be done.

-Ken
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 04, 2013, 09:08:42 am
Ken, thanks for your thoughts. There are several reasons why Wolfmame was made the only acceptable emulator.

1) I can use the wlfviewer to do a check sum and see the emulation speed.

2) I can ensure that no cheats were used.

3) If the inp is being recorded I know that pausing is not being used.

4) Wolfmame .106 is the only version that is acceptable to TG, and keeping to Wolfmame in general may help encourage people to submit their scores to TG.

I am sure that others could come up with some other reasons as well.

Instead of just referring to something as "silly" why not share the reasons behind your suggestions. This is the List Submission Rules thread, so if you have any rule recommendations this is the place to do it. Did you participate in this discussion when this part of the criteria was being created?
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: tom bradley on August 04, 2013, 09:32:20 am
Corey no offense but if I show that the settings are all correct and provide a video that shows that say for example I was playing on 2 man setting with bonus at 7K shouldn't it be elligible for a score subbmission? And if what I did wasn't good enough you couls mention something i should do and then I would do that to prove that I have done no method of cheating?

Hope that makes sence :D
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: f_symbols on August 04, 2013, 09:56:44 am
Opinions Follow, Tread Lightly:

Relevance is key with a scoreboard; I personally would prefer a shorter list of Verified "cheat proof" scores over a longer list of potentially "in-comparable" scores.  The fact that this list isn't the TG list doesn't imply that our level of scrutiny be any lower.  I see the valid issues with modern versions of mame or other Xin1 emulators; The potential to cheat with modern mame versions and the gameplay differences of various emulators has been discussed thoroughly, both Dean and Hank have given their opinions on the matter. 

We must realize that scores such as Svavars' and Robbies' were "grandfathered" into the list due to general community acceptance, previous proven performance (in accepted venues WCR2), and during the developmental phase of the rules that govern this scoreboard.  The acceptance of these scores are not a precedence for further "bending of the rules" they were exceptions, and should only be viewed as such.  Both Robbie and Svavar understand the rules that govern the HSL of DKF and neither had issues with the potential DQ of their scores from the list; Svavar even went so far as tho ask that it be removed, to prevent controversy. 

My opinions would vary if access to the REQUIRED version of wolfmame cost money, but anyone with a computer can get the right version of wolf and the correct us set 1 roms;  NO ONE is IN ANY WAY prevented or limited in their access to a potentially valid score. 

That last sentence sums everything up;  We have agreed upon a "cheat proof" version of mame, that is READILY available for anyone to download, FOR FREE.  If you feel the need to go above and beyond and buy a cab for your personal arcade, then by all means do so,  Just know that you need a TKG4 boardset for your submissions to be valid.  I totally understand the appeal of Xin1 emulators for space, price, etc.

Bottom Line:  If you want to play on an Xin1 or have reasons to play DK on other versions of mame, by all means go ahead and do it, just know those scores aren't not valid on the DKF HSL, for reasons that have been beaten to death by the TOP players in this game. If you want a score on the scoreboard, then either download wolfmame FOR FREE, or buy a TKG4 boardset. 

If you can afford a cab, then that is a personal luxury that you choose to acquire; simply spending X-hundred dollars on a cab doesn't mean its' scores should be valid.   That is like giving special privilege to those who can afford any type of MAME or Multi Cab and that's bat shit crazy. 

The required versions of mame are free, allowing any input type you want, on any screen you want, how much more flexibility do we need?  Just download it and put up a score or play on a TKG4 boardset, and forget about the grandfathered scores, they have no relevance for future submissions.

-Fin
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 04, 2013, 10:07:52 am
I agree with Ethan that the list already offers a lot more flexibility than TG, but it needs to stay relevant. But Ethan Auxiliary rule #5 states:

5.   Scores that were achieved on a 3 in 1 machine or multi-pcb will be acceptable if the whole video is available demonstrating that continues were not utilized, unless there is other supporting evidence.

It has been accepted provisionally, granted that no evidence has been offered to show that a multi-pcb plays any differently, otherwise Svarar's score would not be there.

The rules are flexible enough, but in the light of the acceptance of multi-pcb opens up the discussion concerning this possibly JAMMA ran conservative cab that Tom just purchased.

Tom, only Wolfmame submissions will be accepted at this time. It is impractical for me to navigate and thoroughly learn every mame program that has or ever will exist. This list is Wolfmame only for mame submissions. To date, there has never been a non-wolfmame submission, owing to the fact that most of us already use it for TG purposes.

EDIT: The DK HSL notes that Svarar's score was done on a multi-pcb. As long as the x in 1 JAMMA boards emulate the game perfectly, as does the TKG-4 and Wolfmame. That is why I suggested that we change the platform language from Arcade/Arcade(multi-pcb)/Mame to Arcade/Multi-PCB/Mame so that all Arcade submissions must be TKG-4.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: f_symbols on August 04, 2013, 10:18:22 am
well the 3in1 boards were actually released by namco, it doesn't necessarily remove all doubt about rom versions, but it's likely that the proper licensing led to accurate versions of the software being included.  http://www.joystiq.com/2004/10/15/namcos-new-3-in-1-retro-cabinet-featuring-donkey-kong-donkey/ (http://www.joystiq.com/2004/10/15/namcos-new-3-in-1-retro-cabinet-featuring-donkey-kong-donkey/)


Here is the OP manual, which lists the board as a JAMMA board: http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Arcade_Manuals_and_Schematics/DK_DK-JR_Mario_Bros_Combo_by_Namco_2005.pdf (http://arcarc.xmission.com/PDF_Arcade_Manuals_and_Schematics/DK_DK-JR_Mario_Bros_Combo_by_Namco_2005.pdf)


I never really understood why we accepted Xin1 otherwise, I was under the impression that the acceptance of Svavars score was due to a previously verified performance on the same machine (his entire wcr2 game was reviewed and posted on the same cab), the fact that the arcade owner said what the settings were on the machine, and that he had a live audience and some video footage of the event from multiple cameras. 
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 04, 2013, 10:20:20 am
Another thing that I think Ethan is saying is that the list develops due to extraordinary issues. In the case of Svarar, his score that was originally on the list, that was not one million, was multi-pcb but I didn't know that until later. It was at this time that he wanted or at least requested to have it removed if it would cause any problems. So we all discussed the matter both before and after that multi-pcb would be allowed for score submissions on the list. Svarar was not really an exception as much as it was an undiscussed matter that would later add further development to the list. Because, point of fact, if the multi-pcb does emulate the game perfectly as I think it does, then it is a legitimate score which is verifiable. This is true of other emulators but I may not have the same level of verification with other emulators and I certainly can't allow less verification. I think that the list rules are fine just as they are concerning Wolfmame because it offers no real impediment to anyone since it is free and easily accessible, I even have a video showing how to use it.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 04, 2013, 10:25:25 am
Yes, there were multiple factors that added credibility to Svarar's score, but it was the issue concerning emulation of a multi-pcb that was a point of discussion. At that time, all those who participated in the discussion, supported the idea of multi-pcb as long as we knew that continues were not being used. In the case of Svarar, we accepted other supporting evidences since we had a video that did not show the whole game, and it did not show a restart to show 3+1 men settings.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 04, 2013, 11:14:57 am
So, this raises some other issues that are not explicitly stated in the rules which I would like to add if at all possible.

We could ultimately accept the following:

1) Arcade (TKG-4)
2) Mame (Wolfmame only)
3) Jamma (multi-pcb)

We would also specify that we would allow the following:

1) Save kit from Blazen Technology
2) Multi-pcb switcher
3) Jamma adopter

How do you guys feel about this?
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: tom bradley on August 04, 2013, 11:17:02 am
How about this, because I don't understand most of what you are talking about, when I get the machine I'll try to post a video showing the insides of the machine. Then can you evaluated whether I can submit scores using it, I would really appreciate it if you could take a look and hopefully tell me that it is elligible.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 04, 2013, 11:37:05 am
Definately open up the back and show us the inside of the machine. Show any text on the pcb if it is JAMMA, etc. Show the start up, the title screen, the game play, etc. But like I said, if it is a JAMMA, I really don't have anything in the criteria that would ultimately reject it at this point. But this is a community list, so I need to allow time for people to chime into the discussion.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Scoundrl on August 04, 2013, 03:13:59 pm

My opinions would vary if access to the REQUIRED version of wolfmame cost money, but anyone with a computer can get the right version of wolf and the correct us set 1 roms;  NO ONE is IN ANY WAY prevented or limited in their access to a potentially valid score. 

That last sentence sums everything up;  We have agreed upon a "cheat proof" version of mame, that is READILY available for anyone to download, FOR FREE.  If you feel the need to go above and beyond and buy a cab for your personal arcade, then by all means do so,  Just know that you need a TKG4 boardset for your submissions to be valid.  I totally understand the appeal of Xin1 emulators for space, price, etc.
-Fin

This is not accurate and is the reason for my post in the first place. This 'custom' cab may be using mame but it may not be wolfmame 1.06. If he wants to use his machine he has to go thru a lot of work just to make it DKF compliant, if that is in fact possible.

As for me just saying its silly, that is exactly what it is. If you think no one can cheat because xxx rule or xxx_y rule you havnt been in the computer industry long. Anything that can be done with software can be bypassed by software.

Wolf106 does NOT emulate Donkey Kong properly. The sound system is a hacked together system that may or may not have anything to do with gameplay but the simple fact is it is NOT emulated 100%. They have since added the proper sound emulation.

Noone has any clue what is being used in the xxx-1 boards. It seems to play properly but we do not know. Allowing those to be mixed in is fine by me but it certainly is some kind of emulation and certainly is NOT wolfmame 106.

Because someone might cheat or has ability to cheat does not make them a cheat. I could easily cheat. I could cheat on a machine, I could cheat on a 60-1 and I could cheat via wolfmame. The more rules you put in place the more people you limit from submitting scores to the HSL, and this new member will likely be an example of that.

-Ken

Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 04, 2013, 03:28:54 pm
I think that the list does a good job and I have explained where the list exists on the spectrum of possible lists that we could have. We want the list to be relevant and to be credible and I think that the present criteria serves that end very well.

Tom and I have spoken several times. The first time he contacted me he wanted to submit to the list with just a photograph, and at that time I was very nice in explaining the criteria. Recently he contacted me before he purchased this cab he shows in the video and asks me about it. I told him that my initial reaction was "no" because I knew nothing about it, but then I started the conversation about whether it is a Jamma board. He will make a video of it all as I requested and I am sure that based on the present criteria that everything will be ok I am sure. I am not too worried about it. And in reality, support has already been offered for the multi-pcb and Wolfmame only, and it has already passed into usage.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 04, 2013, 03:38:56 pm
Additionally, the criteria does not limit mame submissions to Wolfmame 0.106, as it seems you suppose. All versions of wolfmame are allowed. If you thought this, or continue to think that the list is too strict, please re-read the criteria, especially the auxiliary rules.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Scoundrl on August 04, 2013, 04:44:58 pm
I dont really have a pony in this show. If you want to have whatever rules thats OK with me. My only real issue is that the list has to much latitude to be seriously credible and as such is simply a community driven list and should be treated as such. Adding high end rules to verify credible scores while also mixing emulation and 60-1 knock off boards does not make sense. Its not apples to apples REALLY.

I think the list is accurate and representative of who the best players are, so I'm not arguing that its not a good list, just the mixing and matching then making the rules that are unnecessarily restrictive do not go hand in hand.

There is a reason no real scoreboard mixes scores (because they are fundamentally different).

There is also a reason the tournaments I run and/or am a part of mix scores from different platforms (because its for fun and who cares if there are subtle difference)

It seems at some point the DKF scoreboard will have to pick. Be Legit and have strict rules or be for fun and let people play and submit what they wish/what they have available.

-Ken
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 04, 2013, 05:17:31 pm
I respect you Ken, and I appreciate your thoughts.

Originally, I had multiple player scores. For example, I would have a Arcade score and a Mame score for the same person. It was asked for duplicate people's scores to be removed. If you will, you can see the list as an aggregate. The far right column tells what the platform is. So in a sense, the format is just that a formality. So you can scan in one shot what all the Arcade scores are, or the Mame. The distinction is made in this column because it is not an exact comparison between Arcade and Mame for example. No assumption should be made that we are mixing per say, that is what the platform column helps to deliniate. The kind of evidence or verification is in the source column. So, in one look, you can see all the scores together, but you can also see what platform it was on, and what level of verification it has.

Now, I personally don't agree with your either/or mentality. You are certainly entitled to it. From the very start my vision had been to create an decent alternative for those who would never pay for submissions. As soon as TG started charging for submissions I knew there would be a percentage of people who would not follow suit. But I never intended to create a replacement but rather I have always made all attempts to direct people to TG at every turn.

Additionally, the list has helped to draw people to our community and offer them a way to get a score recognized by us. In the general discussion thread I have written a novel explaining where this list exists on the spectrum of possible lists. And I knew, that anytime a line was drawn that people would fall on either side of it. The list is an attempt to balance credibility and relevance. If the list was too strict it would exclude too many legitimate scores, but if it is too lax it equally becomes less relevant because the scores that are allowed had not passed through a reasonable amount of scrutiny.

I am sure that we trust each other and that none of us will ever cheat, but we are not dealing with us alone. We have a public that watches us from a distance. I wanted the list to be the place to post your scores, and that the list itself would lend a certain level of credibility to it because it was evidenced-based and passed through a reasonable amount of scrutiny. I wanted people to look at the list and come to trust that the scores contained therein is the best representative of reality as we can get and still keep it free of mere claims or questionable means. I truly believe that this list has kept an incredible balance in the light of new situations and has lent both fun and legitimacy to the list.

Trust me, I have made every attempt to help people get their scores submitted and accepted.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Scoundrl on August 04, 2013, 05:58:06 pm
For the record, I am not trying to pick on the DKF list. I think you have done a pretty good job managing a very difficult task..

-Ken
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Fast Eddie on August 04, 2013, 06:07:32 pm
im pretty sure that bartop has a pc in it not a multiboard. i also think its a 8 way joystick so you may have some playability issues with DK, Tom...

i think it makes sense to stick to wolfmame for inp submissions...but what about a video recording of a non wolfmame score on a mame cab/bartop? i dont think it makes sense to reject that but accept a xxx-in-1 score (aux rule 5), as they are both emulation using assorted versions of mame, and arcade controls...not that i want to complicate things further  :-\

 8)
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 04, 2013, 07:42:40 pm
Thanks Ken, I appreciate that.

Jon, I understand that there are many mame programs and in reality they could be ok in theory, I am not saying they are not, but in the realm of Mame it was limited to Wolfmame for the list, because a certain measure of uniformity is important for this catagory/platform, and I really think that Wolfmame is very accessible on any mame cab that runs on a pc. If someone has a pc mame cab, I can't imagine that one could not put Wolfmame on it. So in the case of having apple to apple comparison, having one "brand" of mame (Wolfmame) for that category is important I think. In addition to all the reasons I listed. Allowing any version of Wolfmame is a great position and in a sense is an opening up of the TG requirement that limits it to the 0.106 version, making this list more flexible but still keeping it accountable to the category.   

The acceptance of Svarar's score done on a multi-pcb opened up the platform of Jamma. I wish I could say more in this regard but right now I think the list works well with Jamma standard multi-pcb, Wolfmame-only, and TKG-4 for Arcade. I think this helps to make it accessible to a lot of people, anyone should be able to get access to one of these. Anyone.

So, if Tom is running a Jamma board or a pc, he should be good. And I agree, dk is harder to play without a 4-way restrictor plate. Since only one input is accepted in the game, a misplaced movement may hit the top input when in fact you wanted left. I had to deal with this for awhile before I got the nintendo joystick and what a difference it makes.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: tom bradley on August 05, 2013, 01:59:11 am
Alright I have been talking to the buyer and It turns out the machine is PC based so I'll have to try and find out how to install wolfmame for it :(
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Fast Eddie on August 05, 2013, 05:18:21 am
looks like its running this frontend: http://www.gameex.com/ (http://www.gameex.com/)

you can configure it to use wolfmame for DK if its registered version (£20), but i dont know if you can configure it to record inps, you may need to run wolfmame outside of gameex...

 8)
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 05, 2013, 05:40:30 am
Tom, just told me that all he has to do is plug in a mouse and a keybaord, download Wolfmame, and he is good to go. Getting his bartop arcade machine and a pc all in one. Nice work, Tom! I hope everything continues to work well for you  ;D
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: tom bradley on August 05, 2013, 08:42:33 am
I also just realized since its a cab/PC I can just stream like I do on my regular PC, looks like everything turned out for the best eh Corey!
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 05, 2013, 02:39:00 pm
Yes, it did. I am glad that you asked about it, and that any of us had an opportunity to talk about some things. Ken offered some good perspectives and Chris gave us the best explanation about roms and pcbs. So I think all is very good. I love how the community comes together to fill in the gaps and make things better than they are.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 09, 2013, 09:31:39 pm
I just realized that when I originally created the list I only drew up from a certain point from TG. But then I later set the minimum at 200,000 points. So I went back and did a quick audit and realized that I stopped much higher than that on TG. So to my surprise and I am sure yours, that I would be adding about 46 scores to the High Score List that range from 200K to 340K.

So I propose to move the minimum to 300,000 points. This would only effect John McNeil. But I know he has gotten over 200K twice so I am hopeful that he can get 300K if he really tried. Does anyone object to this proposal?
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: JNugent on August 09, 2013, 09:53:53 pm
Although I have submitted a few 200k scores over the spring and summer (and enjoyed submitting them) I think a 300k minimum is reasonable.  I realize it's easy for me to say that now, but I still think it's a good idea Corey.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 09, 2013, 09:56:35 pm
Apparently I move too fast for this forum and am way to impatient. I decided to place the following minimum limits:

No-Hammer 80,000
High Score 300,000
Level 1-1    9,000
Start      100,000

This would not directly effect the only two people that presently fall below these limits. There were a couple on the no hammer list but they were so low I can't imagine that any of them could not beat it in a day or two. I mean if Jason Brittain can get over 80,000 points then I am sure these can as well. (Joking Jason! lol :P)

John McNeil falls below 300K with a high of 266K. I have faith in him. I will leave it up to motivate him to get off the bottom and into the 300K range! :) Though his TG score is higher than his WCR #2 score so I am actually updating it.

Jeremy Young is below 9,000 on 1-1, but if I remember he was just submitting something. I will leave it there to taunt him with the prospect of being eternally last. :P There ought to get him up and into the 9,000 point category.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 09, 2013, 10:01:11 pm
Thanks Jason. Even with the adjustment I am still adding about 11 scores. Someone had suggested that I raise the minimum to 300K at one time because I was updating these PB's so often. I wanted to leave it to encourage newer players to get on the list, but I am sure that trying to get at least 300K to get on the list should be good motivation enough.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Justin on August 29, 2013, 09:42:03 pm
hello, i just joined after picking up a DK cocktail with 2x TKG3-07 4-boardsets but I see the TKG3 PCBs aren't accepted for submissions. I want to know, can the rules be revised to accept a TKG3 using (US Set 1)?
I may get back to playing this winter, my previous best score is 335900 set about 3 years ago on TG MAME.

I did a little testing on the boardsets by removing the EPROMs and comparing the checksum data on each on the with the files from "dkong" (US Set 1) and the files from "dkongo" (US Set 2).

This showed roms on one TKG3 boardset to have the same checksums as the roms in (US Set 1).
The title is displayed as "(c) 1981 Nintendo of America Inc."
The barrels killed the player regularly when at the top of the ladder.
It's indeed a TKG3 with (US Set 1).

The the second TKG3 boardset had three roms that didn't match (US Set 1) but instead matched three files in (US Set 2).
This version displayed "(c) Nintendo 1981"
The barrel cheat was enabled.
This is a TKG3 (US Set 2) as the checksums match.

I came across a small exception to the rule of a "(c) 1981 Nintendo of America Inc" title screen having no ladder cheat.
Exchanging a certain EPROM from (US set 2) to the (US Set 1) board enabled the ladder cheat AND the "(c) 1981 Nintendo of America Inc" title screen. It would work also with the TKG4, just the EPROM would need to be socketed in a different location.
 
What are the thoughts on this? and what are the thoughts on allowing (or disallowing) the TKG3 boardset with (US Set 1) for submissions?

Thanks
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: ChrisP on August 30, 2013, 12:15:44 am
It was my understanding that all TKG-3-7s shipped with the "Set 1" code and should be okay. (The TKG-3-7s were released concurrently with the TKG-4s for the uprights, but they continued to use the 4-board sets for cocktails and cabarets because they had to for size reasons).

It's the TKG-3-6s and lower that all have the old code.

However, this is troubling, because you're saying that you have a TKG-3-7 with the older code... so that's interesting.

As far as I know, nobody has ever been aware (up until your post) that one could swap in a "ladder cheat" ROM chip and still get the NOA title screen. Of course, now that you mention it, it would seem that this could indeed be done seamlessly, since the code would maintain integrity.

That's even more troubling!

Ultimately Corey will have to weigh in on this.

My opinion: the ladder cheat is a total non-issue. A player using it habitually enough to actually derive any significant degree of advantage from it would be extremely easy to spot.

Is it possible that they could "slip one in" over the course of a game as an emergency evasive maneuver and make it look like they "luckily" survived a 75% chance of dying? Sure.

Would slipping just one in suggest that they were not otherwise thoroughly capable of getting whatever score they got? No.

Could they slip in more than one over the course of any given run without arousing major suspicion? No.

While I'm not running this list, if I were, I'd be taking a more lax approach for scores below 700,000, accepting any score, from any version of the DK arcade software, with minimal evidence and minimal verification, since I can't imagine why anyone would bother faking a score less than that, or how it would negatively impact anyone if they did.

In other words, if you're not planning on putting up a kill screen or a million any time soon, I'd be in favor of accepting your scores. The only way to ever be sure about ANY of this is live play anyway...
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 30, 2013, 10:45:31 am
Essentially, since US Set 1 is accepted overall, any US Set 1 should be fine whether it is emulated and processed by a TKG-4 or TKG-3. It is my understanding from Jeff or someone else, I don't remember, that the same processor is used.

The information about mix-matching the US Set 1 and US Set 2 is disconcerting. What file would it be? I want to try this out with the mame files, record an inp with it and then playback in us set 1 only. I suspect that if this was done I could catch any problems with it. Arcade is another matter. We had discussed at one time that if someone modified the roms on Arcade that it would be horrendous. But how would we know. Mame is much better in this regard.

I always want to see any new submissions by new players with Cabs that we have not seen so obviously if you put up a good score just show us what you have after the game. People like seeing this stuff anyways, love seeing cabs, etc.

I was waiting for the first submission of this type so I could think it through but I think that Chris did a good job in his pcb and rom thread which is attached to the high score list. You will want to read through that too if you have not.

Essentially, if you have the US Set 1 roms, I don't think that it matters whether it is TKG-4 or TKG-3 since the same processor is used, etc. I may want to specify on the high score list though, such as the following platforms: TKG-4, TKG-3, JAMMA, MAME. The platform section helps to make distinctions so that people see that scores are not completely comparable.

Chris has proposed that we set some kind of limit on the list that would dictate what kind of verification would be required. For example, if someone got say 500,000 or higher, or as Chris suggested, 700,000 or higher, then we would enforce a higher level of verification, and be a little more laxed on scores that fall below this limit. We should keep this in mind but for now my inclination is to keep everything except a more explicit explanation of the use of US Set 1 in various pcbs. Essentially this proposal would not have too much of an effect since most streamed arcade scores are accepted and the only time I have required anyone to show their machine was if it was a new member of the forum, and they are posting their first score. If for some reason someone got a new cab or new board that is an established member, I have not required it, but it is recommended. I did this when I got my second cab, I show everything the night I got it.

I already accept US Set 1 played on a JAMMA pcb, then why not accept it on a TKG-3 as long as it is US Set 1. This will need to be differentiated on the platform though.

Any other thoughts on the possibility of people mix-matching roms on the Arcade? Of what files I would need to swap in the mame files to get US Set 2 effects in US Set 1 without losing anything else, just adding how the barrel stage functions? I am almost certain that the verification process will find these out.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 30, 2013, 10:51:29 am
All the more reason to get that inp and wlf files. Otherwise watching the game play on the barrel boards can be tedious. Even though the questions still remain about the advantages or disadvantages of this, I think that the main concern is that we have a standard and that we follow it, that only US Set 1, non-modified, is acceptable.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: ChrisP on August 30, 2013, 10:57:57 am
Chris has proposed that we set some kind of limit on the list that would dictate what kind of verification would be required. For example, if someone got say 500,000 or higher, or as Chris suggested, 700,000 or higher, then we would enforce a higher level of verification, and be a little more laxed on scores that fall below this limit.

Well, it wasn't so much of a "proposal" as it was "this is what I would do if it were my list."

You are running a tighter ship though, which is cool, and I am not suggesting you change it. I only suggest it because it would probably be a lot less labor for you to just go on an honor system for scores below 700K.

Don't mistake what I said for "pressure", in any case.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 30, 2013, 05:34:48 pm
Thanks for the clarification, Chris. I understand what you are saying now. It is an interesting idea but yeah, tighter for sure.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: up2ng on August 31, 2013, 11:03:32 am
Wow, so annoying -- I had written a whole nice post in this thread yesterday and it's nowhere to be found.  Absolutely bizzare.  Oh well, I'll try to recreate it now but it definitely won't be as good . . .

I just realized that when I originally created the list I only drew up from a certain point from TG. But then I later set the minimum at 200,000 points. So I went back and did a quick audit and realized that I stopped much higher than that on TG. So to my surprise and I am sure yours, that I would be adding about 46 scores to the High Score List that range from 200K to 340K.

So I propose to move the minimum to 300,000 points. This would only effect John McNeil. But I know he has gotten over 200K twice so I am hopeful that he can get 300K if he really tried. Does anyone object to this proposal?

I'm not sure how I didn't see this when it was first posted so I apologize for the delayed response.

I would encourage you to keep the minimum at 200,000 points and go ahead and add the 46 TG scores to the list.  I think that the accuracy, completeness and community inclusion by doing so will far outweigh the minor inconvenience that the keepers of this list will have in dealing with a few more score submissions.  I understand that the popularity of this game and these forums have been exploding lately and there is probably more work involved in maintaining this list than anticipated, but I think you need to ask yourselves again what you hope to accomplish with this list and whether or not that is really served by bumping the minimum score up to 300,000.

I should remind the highly skilled active members here who can boast high scores of 700k+ that scoring 200,000 points on this game is a significant accomplishment and is NOT a trivial thing to do.  I would bet that a large bulk of casual but NOT novice players likely have as their personal best a score between 200,000 and 300,000 points.  I feel like if these folks want to become more active members of the community and wish to share their accomplishments with us, we should welcome that and recognize their efforts.

In fact, if this were my project (and I'm glad it's not -- I understand how much work is involved in maintaining these lists), I would probably drop the minimum score to 100,000 points (and possibly to 0).  I know that back when I was playing this game casually in isolation topping 100,000 points was very significant and it required some sustained effort in order to do it.  This would include even more people and also allow the list to be more accurate and complete as well, giving a better picture for how all of the verifyable personal best scores stack up against each other which I think has more value to the community.

Anyways, I definitely appreciate the efforts of those of you who have taken it upon yourselves to compile a high score list for this community.  But, regardless of what your final decision is, I hope that you will at least take some time and think about the motivations behind raising the minimum score and whether or not that lines up with what is trying to be accomplished by maintaining this list in the first place.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on August 31, 2013, 10:28:10 pm
Great post, Dean! Hmm, how about I propose this... I could take both Dean's and Chris' idea and say that scores at and below 299,900 points will not require that same level of verification. Just an idea, though, it will be much more work which is why I had proposed for people to help verify scores... but even then I had suggested further that I keep the spreadsheets (excel) that I use to compile these lists on Dropbox so that a could other people could also edit the list there. I would of course use that list and modify the original post. So far no takers on that level. What does anyone else have to say about this matter? Any ideas? Thoughts? Concerns?
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: marinomitch13 on August 31, 2013, 11:08:57 pm
I agree with Dean's idea. Though I realize this will require a lot more work, I think it'd be very beneficial for the community. I don't think we should lax on the rules, rather, we should put more emphasis on recruiting verifiers. If we can't get enough verifiers and the process is slow, I think that's just the breaks, but people will learn to live with it. I'll be hopefully getting a new computer within the next 6 months, so I can pledge to help out verify as much as I can once that day comes (my slow comp, as well as it being a Mac and not easy to mess around with INPs -which is what is holding me back). Even though the idea of lax verifying for the low scores is tempting, I think purity is important enough that we don't want to give any incentive to people to get into the habit of lying about their scores such that, once they become familiar enough with the software and the qualifying hurdles, they try to pull a fast one with a larger score.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Justin on August 31, 2013, 11:22:45 pm
ok thanks good to know TKG3 will be accepted. .

One of the TKG3-07's has stickers indicating it came from a place called 'Brady Distributing'. It's possible they swapped in the (US Set 2) roms from another board. The pic below shows examples of rom labels from each boardset.
The top pic is "Set 2" the bottom is "Set 1".
http://imgur.com/a/Rcas4 (http://imgur.com/a/Rcas4) 
When I have a recording setup I'll make videos showing the table, it's hardware and gameplay.

Corey, here's the info on which chips were swapped and the results.
http://pastebin.com/6i1RKWik (http://pastebin.com/6i1RKWik)

I tried the swap in MAME like you suggested, this is what came up:
1.Adding the rom 5H from "dkongo" to "dkong" didn't play correctly.
The screen was messed up and there was no ladder cheat like on TKG3 hardware.

2.Exchanging all the roms possible from "dkong" to "dkongo", with the exception of rom 5H, showed that the game could be played with the NOA title and the ladder cheat. Exactly like when played on the TKG3 hardware with the same swap.

It looks like I was wrong for suggesting that a TKG3 and a TKG4 would play the same. I'm curious to know what might happen on actual TKG4 hardware. If someone with a TKG4 is interested I'd mail (free of charge) a copy EPROM 5H as long you post the results.

Also here's the checksum comparison.
A GQ-4X programmer was used to compare all the data.
http://pastebin.com/2w6NxMQ8 (http://pastebin.com/2w6NxMQ8)

Off topic but here's a couple interesting things that came up:
ASCII Jumpman?
http://i.imgur.com/kktWJPj.png (http://i.imgur.com/kktWJPj.png)

The hidden message on EPROM 5K (5A). Looks like it changed when Set 1 was created.
US Set 2:
http://imgur.com/GzilSkI (http://imgur.com/GzilSkI)

US Set 1:
http://i.imgur.com/Pz1kAbv.png (http://i.imgur.com/Pz1kAbv.png)
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Justin on September 02, 2013, 10:36:34 pm

i guess nobody wants a rom from a complete stranger inside their machine... : )
if i come across a TGK4 sometime i'll make a new thread with the results.

my apologies if my request + other info was off topic from submission rules. wasn't my intention to hijack the thread, just a rookie here getting a little carried away.

one more question on the rules, how are they concerning bootleg PCBs? the one pictured below has the same roms and CPU's as original DKjr, just no Nintendo markings. can this be used for submissions or no?
http://imgur.com/a/2FQx1 (http://imgur.com/a/2FQx1)
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on September 02, 2013, 11:12:01 pm
Justin, I actually appreciate the questions. I think I speak for most people when I say that for the most part if a board is not identifiable then we should stay away, even if it had the same processor chip etc. I think that if we were to stick to what has been allowed is good because it is original to the game and directly from nintendo, other than the multi pcb but as I understand it the JAMMA is pretty standard.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Shane_NC on September 12, 2013, 11:28:08 am
For the Donkeykongforum High Score list = high score save kits are allowed

For Twin galaxies = high score save kits are not allowed (however, they can be removed and replaced in 2 mins..... ie have save kit in most of time and take it out during TG submissions)
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: ChrisP on September 12, 2013, 12:16:13 pm
It is my understanding that Ken and other TG folks are discussing the kit issue this very month...

No bad news so far, but it helps to have one of the refs in the "yes on kits" camp.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Shane_NC on September 12, 2013, 12:43:51 pm
no, integrity in a save kit isn't questioned by anyone with any sense. Only the dumbasses that make retarded rules for DK at TG, due to its popularity and weibe submitting a legit 1m+ game that got bounced.

People have been talking about this for a while, why does DK have extra bullshit verifications and guidelines. Im not sure now, but in the past there was loads of bullshit on DK score submissions

Some of them include:
no save kits allowed
PCBs must have all original roms
4 way joystick must be verified
attract screen death must play before starts
only 1 credit could be on the machine
original nintendo power supply required

and the list of bullshit goes on and on...

The save kit is a cool investment and within 2 mins you can swap it out for submissions.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: hchien on September 12, 2013, 01:22:44 pm
People have been talking about this for a while, why does DK have extra bullshit verifications and guidelines.

There are people who used to think Steve and/or Billy were cheating.  There are people who still think Steve and/or Billy are cheating.

I believe some of the rules you listed are not just for DK.  For example, I thought external kits were banned for all arcade games and the 1 credit rule was also for all arcade games.

Certainly for DK the high score kit does nothing to the gameplay.  But in theory it is running additional code and in theory it could change the timing of things or even worse-- it would make it easier for someone to program their own chip and cheat.  How do you know what code is inside that external chip (of course you could ask the same question of the "original" ROMs)?

This has been discussed before but:

4 way joystick b/c with an 8 way on arcade you can control barrels while climbing ladders (I haven't independently confirmed that)

original power supply b/c something about voltage differences causing graphics glitches

original ROMs to reduce the chance of someone programming their own chips

attract screen to make sure you are running the right ROM set (Nintendo vs Nintendo of America tells you the ROM set).

apparently some games behave differently when there's more than 1 credit.  DK isn't one of them.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: danman123456 on September 12, 2013, 05:16:09 pm
Well in mame playing with an 8 way doesnt do anything on the ladder except stop you moving. Perhaps its a mame thing only? :)

Yeah lots of rules that I don't really think makes a lotta sense. Seems the joystick and internal check may not be required anymore?
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: hchien on September 12, 2013, 08:10:27 pm
Well in mame playing with an 8 way doesnt do anything on the ladder except stop you moving.

Arcade and MAME are different in this respect.  This was one of the objections to Wiebe's early scores.  There were extra "clicks" while he was climbing the ladders.  He was almost certainly hitting diagonals.  In fact there's a clip in KoK zoomed in on Wiebe's hand controlling a joystick and if you look carefully he is hitting diagonals  (see [noembed]King of Kong - part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWaQhChOH_U&t=7m4s)[/noembed]).  If you did that in MAME, Jumpman would stop moving, but in Wiebe's game Jumpman keeps climbing.  The question is whether those clicks actually controlled anything.  I haven't experimented with this because it's a pain in the butt to take out the restrictor plate.  Even if it didn't control anything, there could potentially be other advantages, like "cornering" faster.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: danman123456 on September 12, 2013, 09:41:10 pm
Yeah the 8 way mode in mame sucked so much i turned the x-arcade into a 4 way. Much happier.

Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Shane_NC on September 12, 2013, 10:46:36 pm
 I have never understood the fact that world class players who have proven themselves time and time again in a live setting are considered to be cheaters. There was actually a massive discussion about this a month or so back. Hank, do you believe the submission rules for DK are not more strict than other titles? A large part of the community believes DK has been made an example of due solely to its popularity, do you think this is inaccurate?'

I think there has probably never been a documented case of someone trying to forge a DK score on video. I think stuff like this is ludicrous. Steve and Billy are  known to be great DK players, why in the hell would they cheat? It literally makes no sense.

 I think if a known great player puts a score on tape it should be excepted and not ran through a bunch of bullshit, because it is DK. For example, if Mitch or myself submitted a 860k  KS and forgot to let attract screen play or something dumb, it would be a real shame for some TG ref that knows half as much about DK as us to not accept the score over something trivial. *** It has been brought to my attention that some TG DK refs are KS players and have a lot of knowledge of the game/ community. In this case these players would realize known players within the community as capable, and would be hard pressed to decline a score from a known streamer that has proven himself repeatedly. I was not meaning to infer that refs know nothing about DK. If they are KS players and involved in the community then they know the whos who of DK streamers / players and their capabilities***



If you have proven yourself to be a good player, there shouldn't be a federal investigation over your score.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: ChrisP on September 13, 2013, 01:46:58 am
The real problem with TG's rules is that they amount to double-padlocking one door while leaving another wide open.

There are two things that TG, ultimately, can do nothing about: 1) the code for the games (at least arcade games) is stored on EEPROMS, which are a removable/rewritable medium that can be altered with zero physical evidence (so showing the board/ROMs accomplishes exactly nothing), and 2) a video recording can be doctored in a way that is not detectable.

(Our live streams are actually more secure than recordings for TG, in the sense that we have live witnesses with whom we interact.)

As for the kits, nobody has ever suggested, much less demonstrated, that the D2K or high score save kits alter the gameplay in any way. If they did, the issue either would have been spotted by now, or is so incredibly subtle that it makes no difference anyway.

But again, the "no kit" thing is another case of locking the one door while leaving the other hanging open.

I have never understood the fact that world class players who have proven themselves time and time again in a live setting are considered to be cheaters... Steve and Billy are  known to be great DK players, why in the hell would they cheat? It literally makes no sense.

I'm just gonna say this: the Billy who showed up at the last two Kong Offs did not show any evidence of being a Billy who could play out a 1.1M game at will (or play at 1.1 pace at all).

Yet we have three world record submissions in which he supposedly did so.

One finds, upon investigation, that these games were all "direct video feeds" from the game PCB, containing neither audio nor Billy, (which would never be accepted from any other player), the latter two performances were refereed by one of his best friends, and all three occurred in a context where there was oodles of motive for both Billy and TG to manufacture a new DK world record (during the filming of KoK, just after the movie's release, and the week before Billy's enshrinement in the Video Game Hall of Fame).

So, there's that...
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: JNugent on September 13, 2013, 07:49:53 am
The real problem with TG's rules is that they amount to double-padlocking one door while leaving another wide open.

There are two things that TG, ultimately, can do nothing about: 1) the code for the games (at least arcade games) is stored on EEPROMS, which are a removable/rewritable medium that can be altered with zero physical evidence (so showing the board/ROMs accomplishes exactly nothing), and 2) a video recording can be doctored in a way that is not detectable.

(Our live streams are actually more secure than recordings for TG, in the sense that we have live witnesses with whom we interact.)

As for the kits, nobody has ever suggested, much less demonstrated, that the D2K or high score save kits alter the gameplay in any way. If they did, the issue either would have been spotted by now, or is so incredibly subtle that it makes no difference anyway.

But again, the "no kit" thing is another case of locking the one door while leaving the other hanging open.

I have never understood the fact that world class players who have proven themselves time and time again in a live setting are considered to be cheaters... Steve and Billy are  known to be great DK players, why in the hell would they cheat? It literally makes no sense.

I'm just gonna say this: the Billy who showed up at the last two Kong Offs did not show any evidence of being a Billy who could play out a 1.1M game at will (or play at 1.1 pace at all).

Yet we have three world record submissions in which he supposedly did so.

One finds, upon investigation, that these games were all "direct video feeds" from the game PCB, containing neither audio nor Billy, (which would never be accepted from any other player), the latter two performances were refereed by one of his best friends, and all three occurred in a context where there was oodles of motive for both Billy and TG to manufacture a new DK world record (during the filming of KoK, just after the movie's release, and the week before Billy's enshrinement in the Video Game Hall of Fame).

So, there's that...
<scratches chin>
Hmmm....
 :-\ :-\ :-\
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: hchien on September 13, 2013, 09:18:16 am
Shane, yes I am on your side.  I do believe the DK rules should be more lenient.  I've probably wasted more time than anyone watching that attract mode (except maybe Dave McCrary).  I don't think DK was made an example because of it's popularity.  I believe DK has the most strict rules because it has the most controversial world record history.

Also a good DK player doesn't necessarily make a good DK referee (and vice versa).  Gameplay is only 1 part of refereeing.  Knowledge of the hardware is another.  Many players don't know the first thing about the DK hardware.  I guarantee you people like Ken House/Richie Knucklez/etc know more about the DK hardware than any of us and they are not killscreeners.  Also you'd be surprised at how much some of the referees know about DK gameplay even though they aren't players themselves.  Remember, they are watching and analyzing tapes from all players.  A good example would be Robert Mruczek (although he's no longer a ref).  He can only get about 200K in DK but he has a wealth of information all around.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on September 13, 2013, 10:03:00 am
Shawn, yes, I will accept a high score kit. Reason is that the Z80 processor is still used, and as long as the rom on the kit is US Set 1 then there is no problems, as none have been recognized either. I actually have a high score kit that I am not using and probably won't use. Though when it was in once, it said that one of the roms during the checksum was bad. Not sure if that means one on my pcb or something in that one chip on the save kit? That would make a difference. Does anyone know that? If it is just in that one chip I would need to learn how to fix that before I sell it off to anyone.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on October 16, 2013, 11:09:04 pm
As it has been discussed in another thread concerning the possible mis-use of the 8 way joystick, and the potential advantage that it could offer, I propose an amendment to the list to be effective for all new submissions to require the 4-way restrictor plate.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: homerwannabee on October 17, 2013, 05:13:29 am
As it has been discussed in another thread concerning the possible mis-use of the 8 way joystick, and the potential advantage that it could offer, I propose an amendment to the list to be effective for all new submissions to require the 4-way restrictor plate.

No I don't think this is a good idea.  The 8 way doesn't really help anyone.  Just waiting for Donkey Kong to realease his barrel before going up is much more effective than risking Jumpman's life on an 8 way on the ladder.  I don't get it.  How is the 8 way an advantage?  It's not.  You're being ticky tack of you put this as a rule.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: stella_blue on October 17, 2013, 05:33:40 am
No I don't think this is a good idea.  The 8 way doesn't really help anyone.  Just waiting for Donkey Kong to realease his barrel before going up is much more effective than risking Jumpman's life on an 8 way on the ladder.  I don't get it.  How is the 8 way an advantage?  It's not.  You're being ticky tack of you put this as a rule.

The 8-way allows a player to steer barrels while climbing a ladder (without stopping).  Hank conducted a few experiments on his stream the other night, and demonstrated that it's possible to do.  He has summarized his findings here:

Steering barrels while climbing ladders - 8 way stick (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=576.msg10886#msg10886)

Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: homerwannabee on October 17, 2013, 05:43:46 am
No I don't think this is a good idea.  The 8 way doesn't really help anyone.  Just waiting for Donkey Kong to realease his barrel before going up is much more effective than risking Jumpman's life on an 8 way on the ladder.  I don't get it.  How is the 8 way an advantage?  It's not.  You're being ticky tack of you put this as a rule.

The 8-way allows a player to steer barrels while climbing a ladder (without stopping).  Hank conducted a few experiments on his stream the other night, and demonstrated that it's possible to do.  He has summarized his findings here:

Steering barrels while climbing ladders - 8 way stick (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=576.msg10886#msg10886)

Yes, I get that.  But how is that advantageous in the game?  There is a 1 in 5 shot that the barrel will not steer, and you will lose your life trying such a move.  Again I don't see this as a great advantage.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Fast Eddie on October 17, 2013, 06:49:43 am
its definately marginal, but either way it does kinda change the game...i think it should be in the rules regardless of whether its an advantage...

 8)
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on October 17, 2013, 08:42:35 am
I can give a good case in point. When I am going up the ladder to the 4th girder, and I want to steer the barrel on the right, I need to throw in that quick input which stops my upward motion for a moment. It would be to my advantage to not work as hard, use the diagonal and get myself to the top of the ladder quicker. Cornering could give someone that extra edge and could actual save someone's life in a tight bind by maximizing efficiency. Besides, there is a 25% chance that a barrel will not steer but it is not being proposed to be used to put oneself into a risky situation. My proposal stands. I do not think that this is ticky tack at all. Rather, now that new evidence has been offered to show that this can be exploited and can be used to easily simplify inputs and maximize efficiency is enough reason on its own to offer the proposal. If I recall correctly, wasn't one of Weibe's scores rejected on TG because of this issue?
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: marinomitch13 on October 17, 2013, 01:19:04 pm
I think adding this to the rules in legitimate.

In the example of using it while on the very middle ladder on the barrel screen (the example Corey gave above), you may actually gain just enough of an advantage to actually significantly decrease the difficulty of then going from the 4th to the 5th girder (which I think most agree is the hardest part of the 'transition'). The extra time saved could translate into enough distance to be able to 'beat' barrels to the top of the long ladder under Kong that you might not have been able to do otherwise. It may also give you enough time to get to the safe spot between the ladders a lot sooner than usual, by not setting you up in a situation(which is fairly common) where if you were to immediately run left after reaching the top of the (middle) ladder, you would coincidentally steer a barrel down Kong's ladder too (effectively causing you to have to delay). This sort of potential advantage I'd actually see as quite serious.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on October 18, 2013, 08:04:43 pm
Ok, I have officially decided, based upon the discussions we have had, to include a rule concerning 4-way controls. The newest additions will be underlined, and....Jeff, could you add a news link of the list, that it is updated, as previously discussed so no one misses it? Thanks sir. And thank you for everyone who participated in the discussions.

Here are the threads for future reference:

How is an 8 way joystick really an advantage? (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=587.0)
steering barrels while climbing ladders - 8 way stick (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=576.0)
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Mary McManus on October 19, 2013, 06:16:54 am
No, you can't do it that way.  In the correct version of DK, you CAN still survive by hanging out on a ladder and having the barrel roll over your head.  The key is that the survival rate is low when doing this on the correct version (but it's higher than zero).  So, just because you see someone use a "ladder cheat" move does NOT mean that they are using the incorrect version of the game.  Conversely, just because someone never uses such a move does NOT mean that they are using the correct version of the game.

There may or may not be other differences between versions of the game.  It's pretty much the one thing that keeps the legitimacy of any high score board is to make sure everyone is using the same software.  All of the other nonsense regarding power supplies, the shape of a cabinet, and to some extent even the controls that are used really don't matter -- but it DOES matter that we are all using the same software, which you can't necessarily tell just from witnessing the gameplay.

IMO, scores achieved using anything other than TKG4 should not be counted (or should be tracked completely seperately).

True, sometimes hanging on a ladder just as a barrel rolls over is successful without the ladder cheat, but not that often. Even latter in the game when the difficulty increases a player might still be able to get away with that manuver, but as the difficulty increases, the odds of successfuly using it decrease, but still possible.

 Verification on the title screen of the US set 1 roms indicating (1981 Nintendo of America ) is good verification of the correct rom set being used.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Mary McManus on October 19, 2013, 06:47:49 am
Question: In the rules, when I mention new players to briefly show us some parts of their cab I mention the "underside of the control panel with 4-way restrictor plate". I think this came up before but for the life of me I don't remember when or where it my be in the monster General thread. (Sure wish there was a quick and practical way of pulling out single submission posts etc, so I could create new topics to get that thing organized and into multiple new threads). I may have slipped this language into the rules without remembered what we may have discussed. I think someone said that as long as they use the original nintendo joystick with the four-way restrictor and the pcb is real that it would constitute as an Arcade submission. Though I think I know at least one person that may play with a ms pacman joystick, and I am pretty sure that the machine that Svarar played on was a multi-cab that may not have had the nintendo joystick with 4-way restrictor... hmm. I mean, what is the point of an original power supply too because I know that Ethan has a newer power supply.

I don't think I ever officially decided what would be considered an Arcade submission. Some may have a mame cab with different types of joysticks, and some use a joystick on their computer. So if someone is using the TKG-4 pcb, and they happen not to have a fourway restrictor, then is this any different than a joystick that one could be using with mame on their computer? There does not seem to be a hard and fast rule. I mean, what if one player's score is higher than another, both were on an Arcade, but the one with the lower of the two scores was done with a 4 way restrictor.

Is this a level playing field for an Arcade submission? 

Another question to ask along these lines has to do with the platforms. We have one for MAME, and we have on for Arcade, and I added the Arcade(multi) next to Svarar's to ensure people knew it was not an original TKG-4 pcb, but rather a multi-board. Maybe the Arcade designation can be for those that fit an "Arcade Criteria" and then those cabs that don't fit that criteria will be on the list as something other than Arcade, or MAME. What do you guys think?

EDIT: I mean, if we did an "Arcade Criteria" then we could maybe have a minimum requirement of an original TKG-4 pcb and an original or reproduction of the nintendo joystick with the four-way restrictor. But I need all you to chime in on this possible distinction for the list.

Flash back to 1982, The Time-Out in the Fingerlakes Mall had "two" Donkey Kong machines. I distinctly remember that "BOTH" machines had the "hard" roms where the game play started at L=01 at level 5 difficulty (5 fireballs at L=03 conveyor belts). This was 1982. I also remember one of the machines had a red ball wico stick rather than the regular nintendo stick. Again this was 1982.

The early DK machines, even the uprights, had the 4 PCB TKG2  or TKG3 roms. (easily distinguishable looking at the copy right date under the title screen)

I feel if one is using either the 4 board PCB( cocktail, mini, or early upright)  or the 2 board PCB (later TKG4 uprights) makes no difference as long as the TKG4 roms are being used as the software. I feel both versions of the PCB should be treated equally as long as the TKG 4 roms are used.

The original power supply matters not. What difference does it make if the PCB is getting its input voltages from the original PS or a newer one? The input voltages themselves the game was meant to use are the same either way.

The joystick should have some wiggle room too. I saw several DK, DK jrs. back in the 80's that did not have the original nintendo joysticks (most likely 4 way lever actuator wico's.



Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on October 19, 2013, 05:44:15 pm
Tim, thanks for your thoughts. I primarily accept the TKG-4 but I have recently learned more and have began accepting TKG-3 (4 board set) as long as the US Set 1 rom is used. I do not have any specifications about the power supply, any is fine. And I have not required the original joystick but I do require that only a 4 way be used and this will in most cases require a 4 way restrictor plate so that two inputs can not be done at the same time.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Mary McManus on October 20, 2013, 08:32:30 am
Donkey Kong High Score List Submission Rules

Newest updates are underlined in the rules.


Normative Rules: The normative rules are the most preferred manner for scores to be submitted to the High Score List. It is the players responsibility to be familiar with these rules and should follow them as precisely as possible.

1.   The Donkey Kong Community prides itself on its close connection to all the best players in the world. Because of this, it is required that any scores posted to this high score list be done by the member who accomplished the score. This would require players to become a member of the DK Forum by going through the  Registration Process (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?action=register).

2.   You are to post your name and stream name to the  List of Streamers (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=3.0) so that all players may have ample opportunity to witness your scores.

3.   All scores must be streamed live on Twitch.

4.   Your post to the Score Submissions (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=364.0) thread will include your name, date, score, and a link to the broadcast highlight. Be sure to highlight your game so it will be saved on your Twitch account and so that players can readily view the game. This highlight will be linked to the list so you will want to ensure it remains and is presentable.

5.   All MAME submissions are to include an attached zip folder with the .inp and .wlf files.

6.   All scores achieved on MAME may be done on ANY version of WolfMAME using only the US Set 1 Rom. Other MAME programs are excluded. If you are looking to submit your recorded INP to TwinGalaxies then you will need to use WolfMAME Plus 0.106, the only officially approved version of TwinGalaxies.

7.   All Arcade submissions are to be done on an original TKG-4 DK machine. TKG-3 or lower will be examined on a case by case basis and the roms must be US Set 1. Upon their first submissions newer members will need to briefly show us parts of the Donkey Kong Cabinet. You can stream this at the end of your game achievement showing the pcb board with rom chips, the underside of the control panel, and other parts of the cabinet. Members of the Donkey Kong Community love to see a good cabinet!

8.  4-way controls must be used on both the Arcade cabinet and through Mame. The dkong rom for Mame is already set up to limit inputs to 4-way controls, whether played with a joystick or a keyboard. Any attempt to modify the dkong rom for this or any other purpose will be rejected. Arcade players are to use 4-way controls only, requiring the 4-way restricter plate, 8-way controls will be rejected.

9.   The game must have been done in its entirety during a single play. Pausing your game is not allowed and will lead to disqualification.

10.  The Donkey Kong High Score List presently has a 300,000 point minimum requirement.

Auxiliary Rules: The auxiliary rules were created to evaluate scores that could not be submitted according to the normative rules. It is understood that there are occasions where the normative rules were either unknown or could not be followed for one reason or another. These rules evaluate the evidence to determine if it is sufficient in order to verify a score with a high degree of certainty.

1.   Scores that were achieved live at an event, such as the Kong Off, or other live venue where your game can be observed live by others, particularly long standing members of the Donkey Kong Community will be accepted.

2.   In case of videos that demonstrate that the game was played live at an arcade in front of witnesses may be acceptable if other video requirements are not met.

3.   Scores verified by TwinGalaxies will be accepted.

4.   Any videos, such as those posted on youtube, which shows only the final moments of a game must demonstrate a restart to prove that the game was started with a 3 lives setting.

5.   Scores that were achieved on a 3 in 1 machine or multi-pcb will be acceptable if the whole video is available demonstrating that continues were not utilized, unless there is other supporting evidence.

6.   MARP submissions or any other INP’s are accepted. The .inp and .wlf files must be WolfMAME-only due to advantages allowed by other emulators. (It is encouraged that those who achieved there performance with a recorded input alone are to stream their input file on Twitch.)

7.   The requirement for .inp and .wlf files addresses the possible falsification of a streamed game. If for some reason the player does not record their input along with their stream then they must demonstrate other evidences to address these concerns. These concerns predominantly include window capture only streaming formats. These evidences include: 1) showing the start up process of the game by clicking on the game in mame so we can see it is being started by the mame program. 2) At the end of the game, after the initials are entered, start another game while the game is still running. 3) Using the monitor capture format or using a webcam facing your monitor will enable people to see that you do not have any video software open on the bottom of the screen and that you are actually starting and playing a game live on Twitch.

8.   Screenshots and photographs are not adequate evidence of a genuine score.

9.   The cumulative effect of multiple evidences will also play a factor in the acceptance of a score even if those evidences are not adequate alone.

10.   Additionally, and most importantly, all scores on this list must be peer-reviewed in one manner or another. All scores which are being submitted according to the Auxiliary Rules will be handled on case by case bases and must be peer-reviewed, and a general consensus must be given by the DK Community that the score is probably genuine.

Streaming Rules: These streaming rules were created to help support the need for quality streams, and offers some general guidelines for the streaming requirement set forth in the Normative rules.

1.   It is the players responsibility to make sure that your stream is clearly visible at all times and that the score and level are easily recognizable.

2.   If there is ANY question of score and level due to bad quality stream, that submission will be rejected, instantly, with no exceptions. I suggest that you test your streams and check them from time to time to make sure they are working correctly.

3.   It is highly recommended that any streaming, whether Arcade or MAME, show the player who is playing the game, and are encouraged to have audio available with a microphone so we can hear the player and game inputs. The more evidence that you can provide on your streams will only strengthen your score’s credibility.

4.   Streaming formats that only capture your MAME window will automatically require the .inp and .wlf files. Therefore, it is highly recommended that you either have the .inp and .wlf files, or make sure that you are using the full monitor capture, or a webcam facing your monitor, or have as much supporting evidence as possible so that there can be no question concerning the validity of your scores.


Does Twitch TV have to be used over Justin TV as a rule?. A live stream is a live stream if its justin or twitch. Please clarify. I want to make sure I don't have any oversights.
Id like to keep my justin TV account
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: stella_blue on October 20, 2013, 08:44:13 am
Does Twitch TV have to be used over Justin TV as a rule?. A live stream is a live stream if its justin or twitch. Please clarify. I want to make sure I don't have any oversights.
Id like to keep my justin TV account


Either Twitch or Justin is acceptable, Tim.

Sorry, Corey.  I didn't intend to step on your toes.

Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on October 20, 2013, 09:23:54 am
Thanks for your question, Tim.

Thanks for responding, Scott. As long as it is the correct answer I don't really mind who answers the question, lol :P
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: ChrisP on October 31, 2013, 12:07:56 am
I posted on MARP asking about how to read info from INPs produced by newer MAMEs.

Unfortunately, it looks like the WLF files that .106 produces are going to remain the superior format when it comes to info about the INP.

Newer MAMEs can get the total framecount and recorded speed, but you have to play all the way to the end of the file, and some of the additional info that WLFs give is not embedded in the INP.

Here is the conversation:
http://forums.marpirc.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15224 (http://forums.marpirc.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15224)

I still think that INPs from later MAMEs should be accepted though. In the case of D2K (if that HSL ever gets going), we will have to.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on October 31, 2013, 06:23:08 am
That is a shame. Not much we can do about that. Thankfully most people continue to use WolfMAME .106 which is preferred due to the process that is used to verify.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: corey.chambers on November 01, 2013, 09:50:35 am
I will be lifting the score limits for the MAME and Arcade High Score tracks and will force myself to update the external references. Please feel free to post all your scores for these two tracks. For those with under 300K scores, post away. Thanks. If there isn't a name associated with a MARP score then I will not be able to update it.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Donkey Kong Genius on May 25, 2014, 11:08:56 pm
The rules now state: "The WLF file is NOT required (and does not exist) for versions of WolfMAME newer than 0.106." The way this is worded seems to indicate that someone could submit an inp from .106 without the WLF file and still be accepted. IF we require both for .106 so that the checksum and verification will work, then maybe the language here should be altered. The rule first seems to state the need for wlf file and then the language immediately after seems to indicate that this is not the case. If we are only offering a qualification that those using newer versions does not produce this file, then that is one thing, unless we are not requiring the verification tool for .106 anymore, since I do not think it will verify without the wlf. I could be mistaken.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Monstabonza on May 25, 2014, 11:22:02 pm
To me it reads that it is not required for for newer versions that 106 but still is needed for 106.
We could change it to
: "The WLF file is NOT required (and does not exist) for versions of WolfMAME .107 and newer."

Which should get rid of any confusion.

I also suggest we add something to restrict wolf mame submissions 106 and above.
I believe it says any wolf mame version, with us assuming it would only be newer versions.


Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: xelnia on May 26, 2014, 12:00:34 am
To me it reads that it is not required for for newer versions that 106 but still is needed for 106.
We could change it to
: "The WLF file is NOT required (and does not exist) for versions of WolfMAME .107 and newer."

Which should get rid of any confusion.

I also suggest we add something to restrict wolf mame submissions 106 and above.
I believe it says any wolf mame version, with us assuming it would only be newer versions.

Added those clarifications, along with the clarification regarding pauses you mentioned earlier.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: konghusker on November 01, 2014, 06:31:55 am
my 3 links to verify my 1.1 game below.  Steve Wiltshire
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhn9snDNZ0A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhn9snDNZ0A)         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGjiKMZy75c (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGjiKMZy75c)       https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raAGs59ARI0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raAGs59ARI0)

Sorry for delay, I've lost interest for a while, then couldn't get the pc to upload until now.  I have on dvd as well.  Interest has come back, and play for a much higher score will begin again next week.  Thanks for watching.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: marinomitch13 on November 01, 2014, 11:47:02 am
Sorry for the minor de-rail.

Steve, you need to write up that story you told me in Iowa at some point. Needs to be on DKF.  ;)  <popcorn> I'm sure it could start up a fun thread!

And good luck on going for that WR!
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Barra on November 06, 2014, 05:12:47 am
Wrong thread
FailFish
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Hurray Banana on November 09, 2014, 11:33:09 am
Apologies if this has already been answered.

I have an original TKG-4 DK boardset. Using a nintendo to jamma adaptor I play in a Vertical screen jamma cabinet using a 4 way joystick (a sanwa) and a switching power supply.

Am I allowed to submit scores streamed via Twitch? (I'm not very good at the moment 168K) and if I am what would they be classified as?

Cheers in advance
Eric
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Donkey Kong Genius on November 09, 2014, 12:03:54 pm
There might be something in this thread that might be helpful. https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1065.0 (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1065.0)
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Hurray Banana on November 09, 2014, 12:36:58 pm
Thanks for the link. and thanks for the videos was watching some of them today
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Donkey Kong Genius on May 02, 2015, 09:52:05 pm
Question: Game settings state: "Number of Jumpman: 3. Score Level for extra Jumpman: 7,000." I would assume that this rule would be normative and not absolute and that if someone had their extra jumpman on a different setting and started the game with 5+1 setting but passed the extra man threshhold prior to the loss of the third man and completed the game prior to their fourth death would be an acceptable score submission?
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Donkey Kong Genius on May 05, 2015, 07:42:52 pm
Question: Game settings state: "Number of Jumpman: 3. Score Level for extra Jumpman: 7,000." I would assume that this rule would be normative and not absolute and that if someone had their extra jumpman on a different setting and started the game with 5+1 setting but passed the extra man threshhold prior to the loss of the third man and completed the game prior to their fourth death would be an acceptable score submission?

This is how I had intended the rules to function so I assume that this would still be the case and that this hypothetical submission would be accepted. I would accept it.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: xelnia on May 06, 2015, 12:24:23 am
Question: Game settings state: "Number of Jumpman: 3. Score Level for extra Jumpman: 7,000." I would assume that this rule would be normative and not absolute and that if someone had their extra jumpman on a different setting and started the game with 5+1 setting but passed the extra man threshhold prior to the loss of the third man and completed the game prior to their fourth death would be an acceptable score submission?

This is how I had intended the rules to function so I assume that this would still be the case and that this hypothetical submission would be accepted. I would accept it.

I would not accept a submission under these circumstances.

While the Bonus setting may be trivial for the majority of players it is still a setting which affects the outcome of a game. A new player might not get that Bonus Life if it's set to 20,000. There are currently 12 scores on the HSL below 20,000. Without standardizing the Bonus setting how can we be sure these players were given an equal chance, and thus have scores that can be compared to the rest of the HSL?

The Lives setting should be strictly adhered to. Why not just use 6+1 settings and let people submit the best 4-life segment from that game? Rules are meant to standardize. There has to be a point where we say "A legitimate DK performance is absolutely X, Y, and Z and only performances that follow those standards can be compared to one another." For me, the Lives setting is one of those points. It takes zero effort to set this game to the correct settings.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: stella_blue on May 06, 2015, 05:28:26 am
I would not accept a submission under these circumstances.

While the Bonus setting may be trivial for the majority of players it is still a setting which affects the outcome of a game. A new player might not get that Bonus Life if it's set to 20,000. There are currently 12 scores on the HSL below 20,000. Without standardizing the Bonus setting how can we be sure these players were given an equal chance, and thus have scores that can be compared to the rest of the HSL?

The Lives setting should be strictly adhered to. Why not just use 6+1 settings and let people submit the best 4-life segment from that game? Rules are meant to standardize. There has to be a point where we say "A legitimate DK performance is absolutely X, Y, and Z and only performances that follow those standards can be compared to one another." For me, the Lives setting is one of those points. It takes zero effort to set this game to the correct settings.


I agree on all points, particularly the 3+1 lives setting.  It is, and should be, an absolute standard.

Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Donkey Kong Genius on May 06, 2015, 09:03:12 pm
Question: Game settings state: "Number of Jumpman: 3. Score Level for extra Jumpman: 7,000." I would assume that this rule would be normative and not absolute and that if someone had their extra jumpman on a different setting and started the game with 5+1 setting but passed the extra man threshhold prior to the loss of the third man and completed the game prior to their fourth death would be an acceptable score submission?

This is how I had intended the rules to function so I assume that this would still be the case and that this hypothetical submission would be accepted. I would accept it.

I would not accept a submission under these circumstances.

While the Bonus setting may be trivial for the majority of players it is still a setting which affects the outcome of a game. A new player might not get that Bonus Life if it's set to 20,000. There are currently 12 scores on the HSL below 20,000. Without standardizing the Bonus setting how can we be sure these players were given an equal chance, and thus have scores that can be compared to the rest of the HSL?

The Lives setting should be strictly adhered to. Why not just use 6+1 settings and let people submit the best 4-life segment from that game? Rules are meant to standardize. There has to be a point where we say "A legitimate DK performance is absolutely X, Y, and Z and only performances that follow those standards can be compared to one another." For me, the Lives setting is one of those points. It takes zero effort to set this game to the correct settings.

I designed the rules to function as normative not absolute, which is why they are listed as normative rules. Most people will use normative rules but they exist in that form for the purpose of those submissions that may not quite fit an absolute criteria. To reject the proposed submission is contrary to the purpose and wording of the rules. They are normative, not absolute. I agree to a standardization, and the addition of game settings to the normative rule set, however, I would not be willing to apply a normative rule in an absolute sense where we as a community can not handle a submission that for all intents and purposes game play functioned the same regardless of settings. The example I shared may not have been plain. I was not referring to a case where a player who has not reached the point threshold, I am referring to a game performance where the point threshold was irrelevant. There would be no difference in game play either way so to apply a technical issue to this particular scenario would be to reject a legitimate performance based upon a irrelevant technical issue for that performance. We are concerned with score performances in particular. I agree that most people will take great care to follow the normative rules, and this is to be expected, however, as I mentioned before they have their proper place, and the purpose of the auxiliary rules is to take each submission on its own merit. I am not proposing that we all use different settings, that is the purpose of the normative rules to guide us. But, if for some reason, someone didn't, the auxiliary rules kick in so that we can evaluate the game performance on a case by case basis. I don't think that many will use 5+1 settings, and I do not propose that we change this normative aspect of the rules, but this question which I have posed actual sets out to determine whether the present score moderators understand the the normative/auxiliary structure which I had created. If you wish to impose an absolute rule set as an additional division in the rules then that is for the community to decide as a whole. However, to do so is contrary to its intent. The normative rules were never written for the purpose of being applied in an absolute sense, nor to discredit a legitimate score performance based upon a technicality which had no direct impact on game play.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Donkey Kong Genius on May 06, 2015, 09:10:45 pm
Let me break this down into two different score performances.

First, a player reaches the killscreen but later learned that they were award their 4th man upon reaching the 10,000 point threshold instead of at 7,000, where they did not lose their 3rd man prior to 7,000. Do we reject this legitimate performance? No, we do not. There would be no reason to reject this game performance because for the present submission the point threshold was irrelevant.

Second, a player was practicing on 5+ 1 settings but had an incredible break out game. He reaches the killscreen and losses his 4th man. That score which he achieved after his 4th man is a legitamate score and the game performance exceptional. Do we reject this legitimate performance? No, we do not. There would be no reason to reject this game performance because there is no advantage since they are only playing out 4 men as one would with 3+1 settings.

This is the spirit of the normative/auxiliary rules. This is why they were created in the manner in which they have been created. 
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: stella_blue on May 06, 2015, 10:05:53 pm
I must respectfully disagree.  Failure to abide by the 3+1 lives setting is a deal breaker for me.

Following Event #4 in the "Crazy DK in the Dark" tournament, I forgot to change the 6+1 setting back to its default value.  I started a standard game of DK and noticed the incorrect setting immediately.  I quit the game, changed the setting back to 3+1, and restarted.  No big deal.

Anyone with a pulse would also recognize the incorrect setting.  Continuing the game would suggest that the player either doesn't know the rules (ignorance), or has chosen to brazenly ignore them (defiance).  Either way, the outcome is the same:  submission rejected.

As a compromise, perhaps the language of the submission rules should be modified to specify that the "Lives" and "Bonus" settings are absolute requirements, with no exceptions.

Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Donkey Kong Genius on May 07, 2015, 01:37:13 pm
I must respectfully disagree.  Failure to abide by the 3+1 lives setting is a deal breaker for me.

Following Event #4 in the "Crazy DK in the Dark" tournament, I forgot to change the 6+1 setting back to its default value.  I started a standard game of DK and noticed the incorrect setting immediately.  I quit the game, changed the setting back to 3+1, and restarted.  No big deal.

Anyone with a pulse would also recognize the incorrect setting.  Continuing the game would suggest that the player either doesn't know the rules (ignorance), or has chosen to brazenly ignore them (defiance).  Either way, the outcome is the same:  submission rejected.

As a compromise, perhaps the language of the submission rules should be modified to specify that the "Lives" and "Bonus" settings are absolute requirements, with no exceptions.

One could create an Absolute division in the rules but as I stated before the historical development of the list has been to avoid all absolute rules which is why the normative/auxiliary rule structure was used. Haven't you ever wondered why the rules are either categorized as normative or auxiliary and that the language that defines the nature of the normative rules state: "The normative rules are the most preferred manner for scores to be submitted to the High Score List. It is the players responsibility to be familiar with these rules and should follow them as precisely as possible." Many posts and hours of explanations were used to this effect.

In fact the rules also state that if a score is accepted by TG then it will be accepted at DKF. I know that submissions like the ones I propose can and most likely will get accepted at TG. But like I said, since I am the one who crafted these rules and adopted the normative/auxiliary rule structure I can tell you that what you disagree with is contrary to the purpose and intent of the list which can be clearly seen from its development. Since the list has been handed over to the community you and Jeremy, with or without support from the majority of the community, can feel free to do as much violence to the list as you wish. But let it never be said that I didn't voice against these alterations nor made it clear that it would lose my endorsement.

Some people might catch that they used the wrong settings but that does not address the two hypothetical submissions. Neither propose that either player was trying to ignore the rules or express any type of defiance. This is not part of my concern here. Using the rules that I crafted for the community to reject submissions which should be handled with more care is repugnant to me.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: WCopeland on May 07, 2015, 04:27:45 pm
Quote from: Donkey Kong Genius
Since the list has been handed over to the community you and Jeremy, with or without support from the majority of the community, can feel free to do as much violence to the list as you wish.

For the record, I feel that Scott and Jeremy have done a wonderful job. They have gone far above any call of responsibility or duty and have poured countless unpaid hours of their own time to ensure submitted scores are promptly reviewed and highlighted as necessary. The suggestion they would willfully inflict "violence" on the DKF scoreboard after they have obviously turned it into a labor of love is quite frankly offensive to me.

I do agree with them that 3+1 @ 7k should be a standard.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: stella_blue on May 07, 2015, 04:32:58 pm
In fact the rules also state that if a score is accepted by TG then it will be accepted at DKF. I know that submissions like the ones I propose can and most likely will get accepted at TG.

Possibly, but I wouldn't bet on it.

Also, unless someone deliberately crafts such a submission, we're unlikely to ever find out.

Since the list has been handed over to the community you and Jeremy, with or without support from the majority of the community, can feel free to do as much violence to the list as you wish.

If you regain control of the HSL at some future point, you will have the authority to undo any damage that Jeremy and I may have caused.

But let it never be said that I didn't voice against these alterations nor made it clear that it would lose my endorsement.

Duly noted.

Using the rules that I crafted for the community to reject submissions which should be handled with more care is repugnant to me.

Perhaps the submitter should exercise more care with the required settings.

Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: xelnia on May 07, 2015, 05:06:58 pm
Regarding the interpretation of the rules:
Let me break this down into two different score performances.

First, a player reaches the killscreen but later learned that they were award their 4th man upon reaching the 10,000 point threshold instead of at 7,000, where they did not lose their 3rd man prior to 7,000. Do we reject this legitimate performance? No, we do not. There would be no reason to reject this game performance because for the present submission the point threshold was irrelevant.

Second, a player was practicing on 5+ 1 settings but had an incredible break out game. He reaches the killscreen and losses his 4th man. That score which he achieved after his 4th man is a legitamate score and the game performance exceptional. Do we reject this legitimate performance? No, we do not. There would be no reason to reject this game performance because there is no advantage since they are only playing out 4 men as one would with 3+1 settings.

This is the spirit of the normative/auxiliary rules. This is why they were created in the manner in which they have been created.

There is just no brief way to outline how fundamentally flawed this thinking really is. People love using sports analogies when it comes to gaming (because omg e-sport athlete) so maybe that will work here:

Usain Bolt runs the 200m dash in the Olympics. He has a “breakout” first 100 meters and knows that he just beat the actual 100m dash world record. So, he pulls up, stops running, and trots over to the stat keeper and says “omg new wr lit  <Allen>.” Think that will fly?

Rules exist to standardize performances before they happen…not after. Why not just film Olympians running around the track all day and review the tape later to see when they’re best performance happened? Whether you realize it or not, you’re advocating for a position that says “Play however you want, we’ll see which rules fit afterwards.” It’s like trying to hit a moving target in the dark.

You’re arguing a position from an almost academic, legal standpoint. “Did a score performance occur using only 4 lives in direct sequence and without being affected by the Bonus setting?” Write a legal brief and take that shit to court. DK competition has existed and was standardized long before you decided to make a HSL. Part of those standards of competition were the Lives and Bonus settings. The rules reflect those standards. The rules should NOT be written or interpreted in a way that alters the standards. If your system of Normative and Auxiliary rules does so, then the system should be changed. The rules, the system by which they are outlined, the people who interpret/implement/adjudicate…they all serve the game and standards of competition. Not the other way around. Maybe you’re uncomfortable with or don’t understand the fact that those standards originally rose from a dark, nebulous place called “80s arcades and operator manuals.”

Regarding the implementation of the rules:

One could create an Absolute division in the rules but as I stated before the historical development of the list has been to avoid all absolute rules which is why the normative/auxiliary rule structure was used. Haven't you ever wondered why the rules are either categorized as normative or auxiliary and that the language that defines the nature of the normative rules state: "The normative rules are the most preferred manner for scores to be submitted to the High Score List. It is the players responsibility to be familiar with these rules and should follow them as precisely as possible." Many posts and hours of explanations were used to this effect.

This isn’t a freshman philosophy class, so yes…I initially wondered why. But the community supported it, accepted it, and there it is. To say there are no absolute criteria by which a Donkey Kong performance should be judged shows a fundamental misunderstanding of competition and score performances.

In fact the rules also state that if a score is accepted by TG then it will be accepted at DKF. I know that submissions like the ones I propose can and most likely will get accepted at TG.

I would vote to reject those submissions at TG and would put it up to a community vote at DKF regardless of the outcome at TG. Since accepting TG scores are part of the Auxiliary rules then, according to your system, these situations would be perfect for case-by-case peer review.

But like I said, since I am the one who crafted these rules and adopted the normative/auxiliary rule structure I can tell you that what you disagree with is contrary to the purpose and intent of the list which can be clearly seen from its development.

Believe it or not, I was around at the beginning of the HSL, so I’m aware of its historical development. You managed it for, what, 4 months after its finalization (which took a few months)? Scott and I jointly managed it for roughly 13 months, and I have been the sole manager for roughly 5 months. In all of that time the structure and “philosophy” has remain unchanged. I am not the owner of the list. The community owns it. If they agree with your take on the rules then so be it. It is actually possible to disagree with an opinion and still be committed to its implementation.

Since the list has been handed over to the community you and Jeremy, with or without support from the majority of the community, can feel free to do as much violence to the list as you wish.

As you felt free to abandon it and the forum because you got into a little tiff with Ken House? And that’s a more appropriate term: abandoned. Nothing was handed over. You’re implying that Scott and I haphazardly handle the High Score List in your absence. We are not disinterested caretakers awaiting your return or blessing. We have put an enormous amount of effort into the maintenance and adjudication of the HSL. Community input has been used to update the rules and allow for a wider range of score performances. There have been no significant alterations to the letter or spirit of the rules without community input, nor will there be. Since you seem to lack faith in either Scott or myself you’re more than welcome to rally the community and call for our (or at this point, my) removal.

But let it never be said that I didn't voice against these alterations nor made it clear that it would lose my endorsement.

Your name will be etched in stone for all to see, I’m sure. If you would like we can put a big banner above the list that says “Endorsed by Donkey Kong Genius.” Or maybe you’d prefer the more humble route of placing “Endorsed by Corey Chambers” at the bottom.

Some people might catch that they used the wrong settings but that does not address the two hypothetical submissions. Neither propose that either player was trying to ignore the rules or express any type of defiance. This is not part of my concern here.

All hypothetical situations regarding the rules should concern you, not just the ones that make for fun little thought experiments.

Using the rules that I crafted for the community to reject submissions which should be handled with more care is repugnant to me.

Go fuck yourself.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: marinomitch13 on May 07, 2015, 06:16:28 pm
I actually agree with Corey on this one, but I'm not gonna be one to make a fuss about it unless some doofus actually submits some sort of legendary score under one of these highly unorthodox situations (I had actually thought about these exact scenarios on my own before on several occasions).
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: xelnia on May 10, 2015, 06:48:08 am
This recent DKF discussion appears to have been started as a result of a discussion that began on Corey's TG blog (http://www.twingalaxies.com/entry.php/188-Thoughts-on-the-Writing-Interpreting-and-Applying-of-Track-Rules).

Quote
Quote
Originally Posted by John73
Can I play DK on 5 + 1 jumpmen? Can I also set the extra life to 10k? As long as I kill off the game after my fourth life, it shouldn't matter because having it on these settings doesn't change the outcome of the game. Can you imagine if I did this and tried to submit that score to DKF? There would be an immediate outcry and the score would rightfully be rejected. But then I will complain, "oh I had it on 5 + 1 for practice and was too lazy to change it" - how is this any different to someone leaving continues enabled or inserting more than 1 credit prior to starting their attempt.

Yes you can! There would be no outcry at DKF, imagined or otherwise. The rules that you read at the Donkey Kong Forum were primarily composed by me, with minor additions by others after I stepped down as the High Score Moderator for the Donkey Kong list. I remain a High Score Moderator at the Donkey Kong Forum. You will see that the game settings are listed as a normative rule, not absolute, which means that given the right conditions as you have proposed that your score would be accepted on the Donkey Kong Forum. There is no evidence that having your settings on at 10k or 5+1 settings has any impact upon game play.

I left a comment that directed attention to this thread so people could see how DKF would react to this scenario. It was deleted and Corey edited his original response to this:

Quote
The rules that you read at the Donkey Kong Forum were primarily composed by me, with minor additions by others after I stepped down as the High Score Moderator for the Donkey Kong list. When I created the list I used a normative/auxiliary model which contained no absolute rules and your scenarios are more than acceptable to me. It is only recently that the two moderators that took over the list after I resigned had shaped the list contrary to its original intent. Those presently moderating this list would agree with you but not everyone involved at the Donkey Kong Forum agree with their position. However, my article is addressed to a more reasonable audience at TG where we are primarily concerned with game play.

Updated Today at 08:19 AM by DonkeyKongGenius

 <Pigger>
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: WCopeland on May 10, 2015, 08:34:09 am
Oh brother.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: stella_blue on May 10, 2015, 08:47:42 am
Despite an obvious attempt to "rewrite history", a partial audit trail has been preserved.

Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: A_D_BLAIR on June 23, 2016, 01:55:21 pm
I have a question and I would like to double check with the powers that be.

If I have a newer version of wolfmame that runs on Linux on my RaspberryPi... Am I allowed to submit scores for mame under normative rules so long as I can fish the INP file out of it? (and stream to twitch and what not) ...

I haven't even begun to try installing and running it on my Pi yet. Ive just started messing with it to be honest and am learning my way around RaspberryPi. But here is a link to the wolfmame download for anyone to check out and tell me what they think.

https://emulationrealm.net/downloads/file/1674-wolfmame-linux-64bit

Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: xelnia on June 23, 2016, 03:56:28 pm
I have a question and I would like to double check with the powers that be.

If I have a newer version of wolfmame that runs on Linux on my RaspberryPi... Am I allowed to submit scores for mame under normative rules so long as I can fish the INP file out of it? (and stream to twitch and what not) ...

I haven't even begun to try installing and running it on my Pi yet. Ive just started messing with it to be honest and am learning my way around RaspberryPi. But here is a link to the wolfmame download for anyone to check out and tell me what they think.

https://emulationrealm.net/downloads/file/1674-wolfmame-linux-64bit

As long as you submit a working WolfMAME INP, that should be fine. As far as I know, INPs made with the Linux build of WolfMAME will play back on the Windows build.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: mrvaya on October 14, 2016, 08:15:49 am
Ok a question that I havent seen answered yet but would like to know the answer to before I start grinding on my cab: Will a score made on the original Donkey Kong-game be accepted if the Remix Kit is attached?
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: xelnia on October 15, 2016, 12:41:35 am
Ok a question that I havent seen answered yet but would like to know the answer to before I start grinding on my cab: Will a score made on the original Donkey Kong-game be accepted if the Remix Kit is attached?

Yes, that is acceptable. Aside from weirdness with the high score table (see Allen's streams from a few months ago), I don't think anyone has found that the Remix kit affects the core game.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: mrvaya on October 15, 2016, 02:10:10 am
Thx you sir.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: WCopeland on October 15, 2016, 05:54:46 am
Be extra cautious to ensure your entire performance is recorded. Partial performances with a Remix kit are tougher to verify because the kit can override the hardware dips.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: mrvaya on October 15, 2016, 06:37:07 am
Got it. Wouldn't aim for anything less anyway!
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: xelnia on May 07, 2017, 07:32:11 am
I've just finished a major rewrite of the rules. My goal was to maintain the spirit of the original rules, but present them in a much more succinct fashion. This will hopefully make the submission process easier and quicker for new players, and players whose first language is not English. The last version of the rule set is attached as a PDF.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: marinomitch13 on May 10, 2017, 12:16:56 pm
Looks excellent!
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: YesAffinity on May 10, 2017, 12:51:52 pm
Great revision, very concise.  Just one suggestion that might help all arcade players be uniform for their first submission: a bulleted list for #7, of the minimum items that must be shown within the cab for the first submission.  I tend to get a little bullet crazy on my lists, but I think here some bullet'ing might be useful.  <Roy>
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: CharlieFar on March 09, 2018, 05:30:02 am
Apologies if this is the wrong section of the forum.

I'm in the process of setting up for submitting to DKF after acheiving my first KS 2 weeks ago. (891,900). Sadly not recorded so I want to make it official.

I'll be using MAME on a New Astro City cabinet with a CRT and stick set to 4-way.
I see that you have to use WolfMAME which is no problem. As I'm using a CRT I use GroovyMAME, and have just found out that it is possible to patch WolfMAME with the GroovyMAME .diff.
My question is: would this be acceptable? I would still be using the features that WolfMAME provides, with the advantages of GroovyMAME - accurate refresh/rez and low-latency controls. If anything, it's more authentic than a PC/LCD setup.

I can provide a test WolfMAME .inp submission for examination is there are any concerns.


Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: xelnia on March 09, 2018, 11:58:08 pm
Apologies if this is the wrong section of the forum.

I'm in the process of setting up for submitting to DKF after acheiving my first KS 2 weeks ago. (891,900). Sadly not recorded so I want to make it official.

I'll be using MAME on a New Astro City cabinet with a CRT and stick set to 4-way.
I see that you have to use WolfMAME which is no problem. As I'm using a CRT I use GroovyMAME, and have just found out that it is possible to patch WolfMAME with the GroovyMAME .diff.
My question is: would this be acceptable? I would still be using the features that WolfMAME provides, with the advantages of GroovyMAME - accurate refresh/rez and low-latency controls. If anything, it's more authentic than a PC/LCD setup.

I can provide a test WolfMAME .inp submission for examination is there are any concerns.

Congrats on the killscreen sir, I saw the post making the rounds! As long as your patched GroovyWolfMAME still works as WolfMAME is intended to work, then that should be fine. Your INPs must be able to be played back with regular WolfMAME though...we still have to verify the gameplay. A test submission would be a good idea (along with a quick video of your cab innards as well). I'm going out of town for the Kong Off, a Funspot visit, and the Meow Mix Galaga thing, so my apologies in advance if I'm not able to check out your submissions right away.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: CharlieFar on March 10, 2018, 04:40:33 pm
Thanks for the reply, xelnia!
I'll get on to this in the next week or so. Hopefully it'll work out. I hate playing arcade games on PC.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Lyriell on November 13, 2018, 01:37:39 am
Please let me know how you go with this.  I have an Exceleena2 that I run groovymame with and would love to be able to submit a score!
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: tjb3531 on February 12, 2019, 09:02:14 am
Hey everyone, I’m looking to finally get set up with Wolfmame so I can submit my next good score. I have found the link to download Wolfmame however I can’t seem to find a rom for DK. There may be a thread for this already but I couldn’t find it. If someone can direct me to a good place to locate this I would appreciate it. From what I understand I will need the DK US Set 1 Rom and the newest version of Wolfmame. I’ve never done any of this kind of stuff so if someone has tips on proper installation that would be nice. I have watched Chambers video so that will be helpful.

Taylor
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: DonkeyShlong on November 07, 2019, 10:44:21 am
Hey everyone, I’m looking to finally get set up with Wolfmame so I can submit my next good score. I have found the link to download Wolfmame however I can’t seem to find a rom for DK. There may be a thread for this already but I couldn’t find it. If someone can direct me to a good place to locate this I would appreciate it. From what I understand I will need the DK US Set 1 Rom and the newest version of Wolfmame. I’ve never done any of this kind of stuff so if someone has tips on proper installation that would be nice. I have watched Chambers video so that will be helpful.

Taylor

I know this is an old message now, but so long as the ROM set is US Set 1, you're good to go.  Some of them have slight byte count differences, but I'm not aware of any modified ROMs.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: DonkeyShlong on November 13, 2019, 04:43:25 pm
I'm having a real issue with OBS and WolfMAME.  I'm trying to do dual capture but when I try, my frame rate drops no matter what settings I try :(   It makes springs almost impossible to do properly.

I assume I'm good to use MAME64 so long as I have both a camera recording my screen and control panel input, as well as the application capture in the top right?  I figured this would be a more conclusive way as I'm in the video also.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: xelnia on November 13, 2019, 04:56:35 pm
I'm having a real issue with OBS and WolfMAME.  I'm trying to do dual capture but when I try, my frame rate drops no matter what settings I try :(   It makes springs almost impossible to do properly.

I assume I'm good to use MAME64 so long as I have both a camera recording my screen and control panel input, as well as the application capture in the top right?  I figured this would be a more conclusive way as I'm in the video also.

For MAME submissions: WolfMAME only (and INP must be submitted), or RetroUprising's Score Mode.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: DonkeyShlong on November 14, 2019, 03:44:45 am
I'm having a real issue with OBS and WolfMAME.  I'm trying to do dual capture but when I try, my frame rate drops no matter what settings I try :(   It makes springs almost impossible to do properly.

I assume I'm good to use MAME64 so long as I have both a camera recording my screen and control panel input, as well as the application capture in the top right?  I figured this would be a more conclusive way as I'm in the video also.

For MAME submissions: WolfMAME only (and INP must be submitted), or RetroUprising's Score Mode.

I've figured it out!  It was a scaling option in WolfMAME that was reverting back to DirectDraw instead of Direct3D, so wasn't using the graphics cards full potential.  It was then lagging so the barrels were shaking rather than rolling, and the springs had frames missing making it almost impossible to get past them.

I thought that by recording input and application capture from WolfMAME, that would be enough proof.  I'll make sure I click play and record also then.

Btw, can you submit an INP even if you've reset the game a few times?  Sometimes I get a few bad starts and I can't be arsed coming out of WolfMAME, then restarting the recording etc.  I assume you can just tab and reset game?
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: NWnike on November 14, 2019, 03:59:56 am
I always start a new inp for every game.  It really isn't hard and becomes muscle memory. Much easier than try to look thru 1 big file and find the relevant game play.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: DonkeyShlong on November 14, 2019, 04:07:52 am

This is an example of how I was recording.  I didn't think an INP would be necessary as it's two displays, one showing physical input and screen, and also screen capture of WolfMAME which you could never modify, but if the rule is INP also, then that's the rule  ;)
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: DonkeyShlong on November 14, 2019, 04:09:44 am
I always start a new inp for every game.  It really isn't hard and becomes muscle memory. Much easier than try to look thru 1 big file and find the relevant game play.

The reason it's a hassle, is that OBS (recording software) doesn't seem to refresh WolfMAMEs input, so hangs on displaying the main menu instead of the game when you start a new INP.  I then have to right click and refresh then come in an out of it.  I'll just have to deal with it or not play when I'm knackered!
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: NWnike on November 14, 2019, 03:27:03 pm
I use wolfmame and steam on Twitch simultaneously, I have used x-split broadcaster and now use streamlabs OBS. I have never had any issues whatsoever in relation to wolfmame. Not sure why you are having a problem.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: xelnia on November 14, 2019, 08:03:22 pm
I'm not going to DQ a score if there is more than one attempt per INP, but I will be making these faces as I search for the game in question:  :( >:( <mad> BibleThump
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: DonkeyShlong on November 15, 2019, 01:03:16 am
I'm not going to DQ a score if there is more than one attempt per INP, but I will be making these faces as I search for the game in question:  :( >:( <mad> BibleThump

 ;D I'll try restart each time so you don't have that hassle, or at least keep it to a very minimum!
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Lyriell on November 15, 2019, 01:27:57 am
When I used to play on a small nuc like device I used to experience the isues you are seeing here.

I had less issues with Xsplit and I put it down to the low powered intel integrated chipset and the way obs would frame capture. 

Never had an issue with more powerful hardware. 

Try using the xsplit trial just to see if it fixes your problem.

I upgraded my tv PC since then and obs was fine.  It might be too taxing on your machine.
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: Ohrami on January 20, 2020, 11:11:00 am
Would rigging up some sort of keyboard or keyboard-like input device to a TKG4 board be allowed for arcade submissions, or because this allows more than 4 possible directions, is it banned?
Title: Re: List Submission Rules
Post by: xelnia on January 20, 2020, 11:23:28 am
Would rigging up some sort of keyboard or keyboard-like input device to a TKG4 board be allowed for arcade submissions, or because this allows more than 4 possible directions, is it banned?

There have been discussions about this, I think, but nothing definitive ever came out of them. I guess I would call keyboard-to-PCB a soft ban at the moment. Not explicitly banned, but we need to be able to verify 4-way-only controls...which means we would need some pretty clear rules about how to do that.