Ah lets hope it is JAMMA then! But if you dont mind me asking why is woldmame the only version of mame that is allowed even though they all play the game the same way? Because it would be a real shame If I was unable to submit any of my scores.
My opinions would vary if access to the REQUIRED version of wolfmame cost money, but anyone with a computer can get the right version of wolf and the correct us set 1 roms; NO ONE is IN ANY WAY prevented or limited in their access to a potentially valid score.
That last sentence sums everything up; We have agreed upon a "cheat proof" version of mame, that is READILY available for anyone to download, FOR FREE. If you feel the need to go above and beyond and buy a cab for your personal arcade, then by all means do so, Just know that you need a TKG4 boardset for your submissions to be valid. I totally understand the appeal of Xin1 emulators for space, price, etc.
-Fin
Chris has proposed that we set some kind of limit on the list that would dictate what kind of verification would be required. For example, if someone got say 500,000 or higher, or as Chris suggested, 700,000 or higher, then we would enforce a higher level of verification, and be a little more laxed on scores that fall below this limit.
I just realized that when I originally created the list I only drew up from a certain point from TG. But then I later set the minimum at 200,000 points. So I went back and did a quick audit and realized that I stopped much higher than that on TG. So to my surprise and I am sure yours, that I would be adding about 46 scores to the High Score List that range from 200K to 340K.
So I propose to move the minimum to 300,000 points. This would only effect John McNeil. But I know he has gotten over 200K twice so I am hopeful that he can get 300K if he really tried. Does anyone object to this proposal?
People have been talking about this for a while, why does DK have extra bullshit verifications and guidelines.
Well in mame playing with an 8 way doesnt do anything on the ladder except stop you moving.
I have never understood the fact that world class players who have proven themselves time and time again in a live setting are considered to be cheaters... Steve and Billy are known to be great DK players, why in the hell would they cheat? It literally makes no sense.
The real problem with TG's rules is that they amount to double-padlocking one door while leaving another wide open.<scratches chin>
There are two things that TG, ultimately, can do nothing about: 1) the code for the games (at least arcade games) is stored on EEPROMS, which are a removable/rewritable medium that can be altered with zero physical evidence (so showing the board/ROMs accomplishes exactly nothing), and 2) a video recording can be doctored in a way that is not detectable.
(Our live streams are actually more secure than recordings for TG, in the sense that we have live witnesses with whom we interact.)
As for the kits, nobody has ever suggested, much less demonstrated, that the D2K or high score save kits alter the gameplay in any way. If they did, the issue either would have been spotted by now, or is so incredibly subtle that it makes no difference anyway.
But again, the "no kit" thing is another case of locking the one door while leaving the other hanging open.I have never understood the fact that world class players who have proven themselves time and time again in a live setting are considered to be cheaters... Steve and Billy are known to be great DK players, why in the hell would they cheat? It literally makes no sense.
I'm just gonna say this: the Billy who showed up at the last two Kong Offs did not show any evidence of being a Billy who could play out a 1.1M game at will (or play at 1.1 pace at all).
Yet we have three world record submissions in which he supposedly did so.
One finds, upon investigation, that these games were all "direct video feeds" from the game PCB, containing neither audio nor Billy, (which would never be accepted from any other player), the latter two performances were refereed by one of his best friends, and all three occurred in a context where there was oodles of motive for both Billy and TG to manufacture a new DK world record (during the filming of KoK, just after the movie's release, and the week before Billy's enshrinement in the Video Game Hall of Fame).
So, there's that...
As it has been discussed in another thread concerning the possible mis-use of the 8 way joystick, and the potential advantage that it could offer, I propose an amendment to the list to be effective for all new submissions to require the 4-way restrictor plate.
No I don't think this is a good idea. The 8 way doesn't really help anyone. Just waiting for Donkey Kong to realease his barrel before going up is much more effective than risking Jumpman's life on an 8 way on the ladder. I don't get it. How is the 8 way an advantage? It's not. You're being ticky tack of you put this as a rule.
No I don't think this is a good idea. The 8 way doesn't really help anyone. Just waiting for Donkey Kong to realease his barrel before going up is much more effective than risking Jumpman's life on an 8 way on the ladder. I don't get it. How is the 8 way an advantage? It's not. You're being ticky tack of you put this as a rule.
The 8-way allows a player to steer barrels while climbing a ladder (without stopping). Hank conducted a few experiments on his stream the other night, and demonstrated that it's possible to do. He has summarized his findings here:
Steering barrels while climbing ladders - 8 way stick (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=576.msg10886#msg10886)
No, you can't do it that way. In the correct version of DK, you CAN still survive by hanging out on a ladder and having the barrel roll over your head. The key is that the survival rate is low when doing this on the correct version (but it's higher than zero). So, just because you see someone use a "ladder cheat" move does NOT mean that they are using the incorrect version of the game. Conversely, just because someone never uses such a move does NOT mean that they are using the correct version of the game.
There may or may not be other differences between versions of the game. It's pretty much the one thing that keeps the legitimacy of any high score board is to make sure everyone is using the same software. All of the other nonsense regarding power supplies, the shape of a cabinet, and to some extent even the controls that are used really don't matter -- but it DOES matter that we are all using the same software, which you can't necessarily tell just from witnessing the gameplay.
IMO, scores achieved using anything other than TKG4 should not be counted (or should be tracked completely seperately).
Question: In the rules, when I mention new players to briefly show us some parts of their cab I mention the "underside of the control panel with 4-way restrictor plate". I think this came up before but for the life of me I don't remember when or where it my be in the monster General thread. (Sure wish there was a quick and practical way of pulling out single submission posts etc, so I could create new topics to get that thing organized and into multiple new threads). I may have slipped this language into the rules without remembered what we may have discussed. I think someone said that as long as they use the original nintendo joystick with the four-way restrictor and the pcb is real that it would constitute as an Arcade submission. Though I think I know at least one person that may play with a ms pacman joystick, and I am pretty sure that the machine that Svarar played on was a multi-cab that may not have had the nintendo joystick with 4-way restrictor... hmm. I mean, what is the point of an original power supply too because I know that Ethan has a newer power supply.
I don't think I ever officially decided what would be considered an Arcade submission. Some may have a mame cab with different types of joysticks, and some use a joystick on their computer. So if someone is using the TKG-4 pcb, and they happen not to have a fourway restrictor, then is this any different than a joystick that one could be using with mame on their computer? There does not seem to be a hard and fast rule. I mean, what if one player's score is higher than another, both were on an Arcade, but the one with the lower of the two scores was done with a 4 way restrictor.
Is this a level playing field for an Arcade submission?
Another question to ask along these lines has to do with the platforms. We have one for MAME, and we have on for Arcade, and I added the Arcade(multi) next to Svarar's to ensure people knew it was not an original TKG-4 pcb, but rather a multi-board. Maybe the Arcade designation can be for those that fit an "Arcade Criteria" and then those cabs that don't fit that criteria will be on the list as something other than Arcade, or MAME. What do you guys think?
EDIT: I mean, if we did an "Arcade Criteria" then we could maybe have a minimum requirement of an original TKG-4 pcb and an original or reproduction of the nintendo joystick with the four-way restrictor. But I need all you to chime in on this possible distinction for the list.
Donkey Kong High Score List Submission Rules
Newest updates are underlined in the rules.
Normative Rules: The normative rules are the most preferred manner for scores to be submitted to the High Score List. It is the players responsibility to be familiar with these rules and should follow them as precisely as possible.
1. The Donkey Kong Community prides itself on its close connection to all the best players in the world. Because of this, it is required that any scores posted to this high score list be done by the member who accomplished the score. This would require players to become a member of the DK Forum by going through the Registration Process (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?action=register).
2. You are to post your name and stream name to the List of Streamers (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=3.0) so that all players may have ample opportunity to witness your scores.
3. All scores must be streamed live on Twitch.
4. Your post to the Score Submissions (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=364.0) thread will include your name, date, score, and a link to the broadcast highlight. Be sure to highlight your game so it will be saved on your Twitch account and so that players can readily view the game. This highlight will be linked to the list so you will want to ensure it remains and is presentable.
5. All MAME submissions are to include an attached zip folder with the .inp and .wlf files.
6. All scores achieved on MAME may be done on ANY version of WolfMAME using only the US Set 1 Rom. Other MAME programs are excluded. If you are looking to submit your recorded INP to TwinGalaxies then you will need to use WolfMAME Plus 0.106, the only officially approved version of TwinGalaxies.
7. All Arcade submissions are to be done on an original TKG-4 DK machine. TKG-3 or lower will be examined on a case by case basis and the roms must be US Set 1. Upon their first submissions newer members will need to briefly show us parts of the Donkey Kong Cabinet. You can stream this at the end of your game achievement showing the pcb board with rom chips, the underside of the control panel, and other parts of the cabinet. Members of the Donkey Kong Community love to see a good cabinet!
8. 4-way controls must be used on both the Arcade cabinet and through Mame. The dkong rom for Mame is already set up to limit inputs to 4-way controls, whether played with a joystick or a keyboard. Any attempt to modify the dkong rom for this or any other purpose will be rejected. Arcade players are to use 4-way controls only, requiring the 4-way restricter plate, 8-way controls will be rejected.
9. The game must have been done in its entirety during a single play. Pausing your game is not allowed and will lead to disqualification.
10. The Donkey Kong High Score List presently has a 300,000 point minimum requirement.
Auxiliary Rules: The auxiliary rules were created to evaluate scores that could not be submitted according to the normative rules. It is understood that there are occasions where the normative rules were either unknown or could not be followed for one reason or another. These rules evaluate the evidence to determine if it is sufficient in order to verify a score with a high degree of certainty.
1. Scores that were achieved live at an event, such as the Kong Off, or other live venue where your game can be observed live by others, particularly long standing members of the Donkey Kong Community will be accepted.
2. In case of videos that demonstrate that the game was played live at an arcade in front of witnesses may be acceptable if other video requirements are not met.
3. Scores verified by TwinGalaxies will be accepted.
4. Any videos, such as those posted on youtube, which shows only the final moments of a game must demonstrate a restart to prove that the game was started with a 3 lives setting.
5. Scores that were achieved on a 3 in 1 machine or multi-pcb will be acceptable if the whole video is available demonstrating that continues were not utilized, unless there is other supporting evidence.
6. MARP submissions or any other INP’s are accepted. The .inp and .wlf files must be WolfMAME-only due to advantages allowed by other emulators. (It is encouraged that those who achieved there performance with a recorded input alone are to stream their input file on Twitch.)
7. The requirement for .inp and .wlf files addresses the possible falsification of a streamed game. If for some reason the player does not record their input along with their stream then they must demonstrate other evidences to address these concerns. These concerns predominantly include window capture only streaming formats. These evidences include: 1) showing the start up process of the game by clicking on the game in mame so we can see it is being started by the mame program. 2) At the end of the game, after the initials are entered, start another game while the game is still running. 3) Using the monitor capture format or using a webcam facing your monitor will enable people to see that you do not have any video software open on the bottom of the screen and that you are actually starting and playing a game live on Twitch.
8. Screenshots and photographs are not adequate evidence of a genuine score.
9. The cumulative effect of multiple evidences will also play a factor in the acceptance of a score even if those evidences are not adequate alone.
10. Additionally, and most importantly, all scores on this list must be peer-reviewed in one manner or another. All scores which are being submitted according to the Auxiliary Rules will be handled on case by case bases and must be peer-reviewed, and a general consensus must be given by the DK Community that the score is probably genuine.
Streaming Rules: These streaming rules were created to help support the need for quality streams, and offers some general guidelines for the streaming requirement set forth in the Normative rules.
1. It is the players responsibility to make sure that your stream is clearly visible at all times and that the score and level are easily recognizable.
2. If there is ANY question of score and level due to bad quality stream, that submission will be rejected, instantly, with no exceptions. I suggest that you test your streams and check them from time to time to make sure they are working correctly.
3. It is highly recommended that any streaming, whether Arcade or MAME, show the player who is playing the game, and are encouraged to have audio available with a microphone so we can hear the player and game inputs. The more evidence that you can provide on your streams will only strengthen your score’s credibility.
4. Streaming formats that only capture your MAME window will automatically require the .inp and .wlf files. Therefore, it is highly recommended that you either have the .inp and .wlf files, or make sure that you are using the full monitor capture, or a webcam facing your monitor, or have as much supporting evidence as possible so that there can be no question concerning the validity of your scores.
Does Twitch TV have to be used over Justin TV as a rule?. A live stream is a live stream if its justin or twitch. Please clarify. I want to make sure I don't have any oversights.
Id like to keep my justin TV account
To me it reads that it is not required for for newer versions that 106 but still is needed for 106.
We could change it to
: "The WLF file is NOT required (and does not exist) for versions of WolfMAME .107 and newer."
Which should get rid of any confusion.
I also suggest we add something to restrict wolf mame submissions 106 and above.
I believe it says any wolf mame version, with us assuming it would only be newer versions.
Question: Game settings state: "Number of Jumpman: 3. Score Level for extra Jumpman: 7,000." I would assume that this rule would be normative and not absolute and that if someone had their extra jumpman on a different setting and started the game with 5+1 setting but passed the extra man threshhold prior to the loss of the third man and completed the game prior to their fourth death would be an acceptable score submission?
Question: Game settings state: "Number of Jumpman: 3. Score Level for extra Jumpman: 7,000." I would assume that this rule would be normative and not absolute and that if someone had their extra jumpman on a different setting and started the game with 5+1 setting but passed the extra man threshhold prior to the loss of the third man and completed the game prior to their fourth death would be an acceptable score submission?
This is how I had intended the rules to function so I assume that this would still be the case and that this hypothetical submission would be accepted. I would accept it.
I would not accept a submission under these circumstances.
While the Bonus setting may be trivial for the majority of players it is still a setting which affects the outcome of a game. A new player might not get that Bonus Life if it's set to 20,000. There are currently 12 scores on the HSL below 20,000. Without standardizing the Bonus setting how can we be sure these players were given an equal chance, and thus have scores that can be compared to the rest of the HSL?
The Lives setting should be strictly adhered to. Why not just use 6+1 settings and let people submit the best 4-life segment from that game? Rules are meant to standardize. There has to be a point where we say "A legitimate DK performance is absolutely X, Y, and Z and only performances that follow those standards can be compared to one another." For me, the Lives setting is one of those points. It takes zero effort to set this game to the correct settings.
Question: Game settings state: "Number of Jumpman: 3. Score Level for extra Jumpman: 7,000." I would assume that this rule would be normative and not absolute and that if someone had their extra jumpman on a different setting and started the game with 5+1 setting but passed the extra man threshhold prior to the loss of the third man and completed the game prior to their fourth death would be an acceptable score submission?
This is how I had intended the rules to function so I assume that this would still be the case and that this hypothetical submission would be accepted. I would accept it.
I would not accept a submission under these circumstances.
While the Bonus setting may be trivial for the majority of players it is still a setting which affects the outcome of a game. A new player might not get that Bonus Life if it's set to 20,000. There are currently 12 scores on the HSL below 20,000. Without standardizing the Bonus setting how can we be sure these players were given an equal chance, and thus have scores that can be compared to the rest of the HSL?
The Lives setting should be strictly adhered to. Why not just use 6+1 settings and let people submit the best 4-life segment from that game? Rules are meant to standardize. There has to be a point where we say "A legitimate DK performance is absolutely X, Y, and Z and only performances that follow those standards can be compared to one another." For me, the Lives setting is one of those points. It takes zero effort to set this game to the correct settings.
I must respectfully disagree. Failure to abide by the 3+1 lives setting is a deal breaker for me.
Following Event #4 in the "Crazy DK in the Dark" tournament, I forgot to change the 6+1 setting back to its default value. I started a standard game of DK and noticed the incorrect setting immediately. I quit the game, changed the setting back to 3+1, and restarted. No big deal.
Anyone with a pulse would also recognize the incorrect setting. Continuing the game would suggest that the player either doesn't know the rules (ignorance), or has chosen to brazenly ignore them (defiance). Either way, the outcome is the same: submission rejected.
As a compromise, perhaps the language of the submission rules should be modified to specify that the "Lives" and "Bonus" settings are absolute requirements, with no exceptions.
Since the list has been handed over to the community you and Jeremy, with or without support from the majority of the community, can feel free to do as much violence to the list as you wish.
In fact the rules also state that if a score is accepted by TG then it will be accepted at DKF. I know that submissions like the ones I propose can and most likely will get accepted at TG.
Since the list has been handed over to the community you and Jeremy, with or without support from the majority of the community, can feel free to do as much violence to the list as you wish.
But let it never be said that I didn't voice against these alterations nor made it clear that it would lose my endorsement.
Using the rules that I crafted for the community to reject submissions which should be handled with more care is repugnant to me.
Let me break this down into two different score performances.
First, a player reaches the killscreen but later learned that they were award their 4th man upon reaching the 10,000 point threshold instead of at 7,000, where they did not lose their 3rd man prior to 7,000. Do we reject this legitimate performance? No, we do not. There would be no reason to reject this game performance because for the present submission the point threshold was irrelevant.
Second, a player was practicing on 5+ 1 settings but had an incredible break out game. He reaches the killscreen and losses his 4th man. That score which he achieved after his 4th man is a legitamate score and the game performance exceptional. Do we reject this legitimate performance? No, we do not. There would be no reason to reject this game performance because there is no advantage since they are only playing out 4 men as one would with 3+1 settings.
This is the spirit of the normative/auxiliary rules. This is why they were created in the manner in which they have been created.
One could create an Absolute division in the rules but as I stated before the historical development of the list has been to avoid all absolute rules which is why the normative/auxiliary rule structure was used. Haven't you ever wondered why the rules are either categorized as normative or auxiliary and that the language that defines the nature of the normative rules state: "The normative rules are the most preferred manner for scores to be submitted to the High Score List. It is the players responsibility to be familiar with these rules and should follow them as precisely as possible." Many posts and hours of explanations were used to this effect.
In fact the rules also state that if a score is accepted by TG then it will be accepted at DKF. I know that submissions like the ones I propose can and most likely will get accepted at TG.
But like I said, since I am the one who crafted these rules and adopted the normative/auxiliary rule structure I can tell you that what you disagree with is contrary to the purpose and intent of the list which can be clearly seen from its development.
Since the list has been handed over to the community you and Jeremy, with or without support from the majority of the community, can feel free to do as much violence to the list as you wish.
But let it never be said that I didn't voice against these alterations nor made it clear that it would lose my endorsement.
Some people might catch that they used the wrong settings but that does not address the two hypothetical submissions. Neither propose that either player was trying to ignore the rules or express any type of defiance. This is not part of my concern here.
Using the rules that I crafted for the community to reject submissions which should be handled with more care is repugnant to me.
QuoteOriginally Posted by John73
Can I play DK on 5 + 1 jumpmen? Can I also set the extra life to 10k? As long as I kill off the game after my fourth life, it shouldn't matter because having it on these settings doesn't change the outcome of the game. Can you imagine if I did this and tried to submit that score to DKF? There would be an immediate outcry and the score would rightfully be rejected. But then I will complain, "oh I had it on 5 + 1 for practice and was too lazy to change it" - how is this any different to someone leaving continues enabled or inserting more than 1 credit prior to starting their attempt.
Yes you can! There would be no outcry at DKF, imagined or otherwise. The rules that you read at the Donkey Kong Forum were primarily composed by me, with minor additions by others after I stepped down as the High Score Moderator for the Donkey Kong list. I remain a High Score Moderator at the Donkey Kong Forum. You will see that the game settings are listed as a normative rule, not absolute, which means that given the right conditions as you have proposed that your score would be accepted on the Donkey Kong Forum. There is no evidence that having your settings on at 10k or 5+1 settings has any impact upon game play.
The rules that you read at the Donkey Kong Forum were primarily composed by me, with minor additions by others after I stepped down as the High Score Moderator for the Donkey Kong list. When I created the list I used a normative/auxiliary model which contained no absolute rules and your scenarios are more than acceptable to me. It is only recently that the two moderators that took over the list after I resigned had shaped the list contrary to its original intent. Those presently moderating this list would agree with you but not everyone involved at the Donkey Kong Forum agree with their position. However, my article is addressed to a more reasonable audience at TG where we are primarily concerned with game play.
Updated Today at 08:19 AM by DonkeyKongGenius
I have a question and I would like to double check with the powers that be.
If I have a newer version of wolfmame that runs on Linux on my RaspberryPi... Am I allowed to submit scores for mame under normative rules so long as I can fish the INP file out of it? (and stream to twitch and what not) ...
I haven't even begun to try installing and running it on my Pi yet. Ive just started messing with it to be honest and am learning my way around RaspberryPi. But here is a link to the wolfmame download for anyone to check out and tell me what they think.
https://emulationrealm.net/downloads/file/1674-wolfmame-linux-64bit
Ok a question that I havent seen answered yet but would like to know the answer to before I start grinding on my cab: Will a score made on the original Donkey Kong-game be accepted if the Remix Kit is attached?
Apologies if this is the wrong section of the forum.
I'm in the process of setting up for submitting to DKF after acheiving my first KS 2 weeks ago. (891,900). Sadly not recorded so I want to make it official.
I'll be using MAME on a New Astro City cabinet with a CRT and stick set to 4-way.
I see that you have to use WolfMAME which is no problem. As I'm using a CRT I use GroovyMAME, and have just found out that it is possible to patch WolfMAME with the GroovyMAME .diff.
My question is: would this be acceptable? I would still be using the features that WolfMAME provides, with the advantages of GroovyMAME - accurate refresh/rez and low-latency controls. If anything, it's more authentic than a PC/LCD setup.
I can provide a test WolfMAME .inp submission for examination is there are any concerns.
Hey everyone, I’m looking to finally get set up with Wolfmame so I can submit my next good score. I have found the link to download Wolfmame however I can’t seem to find a rom for DK. There may be a thread for this already but I couldn’t find it. If someone can direct me to a good place to locate this I would appreciate it. From what I understand I will need the DK US Set 1 Rom and the newest version of Wolfmame. I’ve never done any of this kind of stuff so if someone has tips on proper installation that would be nice. I have watched Chambers video so that will be helpful.
Taylor
I'm having a real issue with OBS and WolfMAME. I'm trying to do dual capture but when I try, my frame rate drops no matter what settings I try :( It makes springs almost impossible to do properly.
I assume I'm good to use MAME64 so long as I have both a camera recording my screen and control panel input, as well as the application capture in the top right? I figured this would be a more conclusive way as I'm in the video also.
I'm having a real issue with OBS and WolfMAME. I'm trying to do dual capture but when I try, my frame rate drops no matter what settings I try :( It makes springs almost impossible to do properly.
I assume I'm good to use MAME64 so long as I have both a camera recording my screen and control panel input, as well as the application capture in the top right? I figured this would be a more conclusive way as I'm in the video also.
For MAME submissions: WolfMAME only (and INP must be submitted), or RetroUprising's Score Mode.
I always start a new inp for every game. It really isn't hard and becomes muscle memory. Much easier than try to look thru 1 big file and find the relevant game play.
I'm not going to DQ a score if there is more than one attempt per INP, but I will be making these faces as I search for the game in question: :( >:( <mad> BibleThump
Would rigging up some sort of keyboard or keyboard-like input device to a TKG4 board be allowed for arcade submissions, or because this allows more than 4 possible directions, is it banned?