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High Score Lists => Donkey Kong High Score Lists => Topic started by: xelnia on March 05, 2021, 07:01:14 pm

Title: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: xelnia on March 05, 2021, 07:01:14 pm: The question has come up recently (and in the past) as to whether arcade scores should be accepted where the player is using the Pace feature in Sock Master's Remix kit. This is too important an issue for me to decide on my own, so I want there to be some community discussion and a vote. There's no time limit on the vote; I'm going to let things play out until we hopefully get a clear consensus. Let's get a bunch of input from everyone. Here are some issues that might be of concern (but not an exhaustive list):

1) Is it ok for a "non-standard" version of the game to be accepted?
2) Is it ok to use in-game, automated help?
3) Is this different from using the Pauline pace app, or other similar pace apps, or other out-of-game methods people use to track score/pace while playing?
4) If these scores are accepted, should they have a different label on the HSL?
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: tilt on March 05, 2021, 07:41:25 pm: Here are my thoughts:
1.) When you use any kind of pace kit besides John's, you're not using the original roms. John's kit is the only one that still uses the roms, but cleverly injects the data for the high-score table when it is called. Every other kit just had a hacked rom hiding on the highscore save kit. These kits are allowed, so modified roms are clearly not the issue here. The issue is whether or not the GAMEPLAY changes.
2.) The pace variant on John's kit does not modify the game play. I'm sure he would be happy to verify this for anybody who is curious or unsure, but this is a fact. A bit of text for "highscore" is changed to pace, with the calculated pace under it, and then the "how high can you get" screen has pace information. This does not change the game play at all, and it is simply doing a math calculation internally and showing it on the screen.

All of that being said, the Pauline hack is simply a graphical variant on DK and does not change gameplay either. So my frame of logic is not very sound as graphical hacks should be accepted under that guideline. All of that being said, I am voting yes but I feel the line does need to be drawn at hacks that:
a.) Do not modify the gameplay itself in any way, and
b.) Do not modify the graphics in the core gameplay (elements that the player controls) in any way.

I'm curious to hear other's thoughts on this.
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: ww on March 05, 2021, 11:08:37 pm: I'm divided on this.

I'm down on it, to the extent that it gives us more info that original rom players don't have. For example, if we were allowed to use the trainer rom, we'd have all sorts of advantages, and things like time remaining for hammers would feel cheaty to me. So at what point is the line drawn.

I'd probably like it a bit because I would enjoy seeing it while playing, and I'm sure it would be fun while watching others' deep-run games, perhaps even shorter ones.

I'm leaning to no. Can we change our vote later, so we can vote casually, or is it permanent? Thanks!
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: xelnia on March 05, 2021, 11:13:31 pm: Quote from: ww on March 05, 2021, 11:08:37 pm
Can we change our vote later, so we can vote casually, or is it permanent? Thanks!

Yes, you can change your vote.
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: ww on March 06, 2021, 12:49:26 am: Also at issue, is this something just available for arcade cabinets, or is it there for mame, too?

I'm thinking I wouldn't even use it, as it would preclude me from submitting a performance elsewhere.
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: Barra on March 06, 2021, 12:53:13 am: Quote from: ww on March 06, 2021, 12:49:26 am
Also at issue, is this something just available for arcade cabinets, or is it there for mame, too?

I'm thinking I wouldn't even use it, as it would preclude me from submitting a performance elsewhere.

There's an app called "Pauline" that Jeff Wilms(?) made. You may not have seen it, its rarely used these days but its still out there
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: Flobeamer1922 on March 06, 2021, 12:59:03 am: Quote from: ww on March 06, 2021, 12:49:26 am
Also at issue, is this something just available for arcade cabinets, or is it there for mame, too?

I'm thinking I wouldn't even use it, as it would preclude me from submitting a performance elsewhere.
The Pace hack is available for use in MAME as well as arcade.
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: GILLYKONG on March 06, 2021, 02:30:24 am: Yes let's stop being silly.
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: DonkeyShlong on March 06, 2021, 02:49:29 am: It's a yes from me. In a world of Twitch live streaming from regular players, it would add excitement for players new and old. As said above and proved, it has zero input to the games coding, it just simply displays a predicted score. The trainer version is clearly not viable and gives advantage to play, pace does not.

Perhaps just add a symbol like DDK..? Me personally though, anyone who can push a high score on MAME or arcade deserves recognition. Some of the top players I've spoken with say that MAME offers an advantage of a comfy seat, and keyboard dual directional input, but is still part of the HSL.
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: Barra on March 06, 2021, 03:10:30 am: I don't know much (anything) about the technical side of things here but I've voted yes for 2 main reasons:

1. It doesn't assist with playing the game in any way. It is purely there for reference purposes only
2. Something similar has existed for MAME for close to 10 years and there has never been any problem with it
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: Sock Master on March 06, 2021, 04:16:27 am: It's a complex issue. I think that since this doesn't actually give you any advantage besides display what your pace is - and that sort of information is the same as was already available for MAME players using external software, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowable.

I do think that it should be labeled that a score was achieved using the pace version of DK. I took great efforts to make sure that gameplay did not change but there is some very small, non-zero possibility that I made a mistake somewhere. I'm confident that there isn't, but I still have to say this because I'm still just human and humans aren't infallible. Anyway, this has been available for some time now and no glitch has popped up so far so that's reassuring. I think in the long run, statistics will prove that it is the same!
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: f_symbols on March 06, 2021, 05:46:09 am: <Allen> <Allen> <Allen> <Allen> <Allen>

Hi Whts his pace
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: Lyriell on March 06, 2021, 05:46:33 am: Huge, Ethan, huge.
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: Scoundrl on March 06, 2021, 07:16:06 am: My thoughts are the same as when it was discussed back in 2016

"For the HSL I would be fine accepting scores from a cab with a pace hack as long as its noted with the submission and on the list itself. If this was TG I would have a different view but for this DK specific list managed by the DK players I see no harm at all.

Even if it TG I would say that as long as game play is not changed in any way (including the time between board) it should be accepted. I have nothing against fixing old bugs or adding usability features like high score save and extra men show as long as the gameplay is left 100% in tact.

-Ken"
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: JasonV91 on March 06, 2021, 10:27:27 am: I see both sides of this, and it's certainly not cut-and-dried for me, but by a small margin, I'm voting no. What tips it for me is the additional assistance (no matter how minor) provided in-game. The point has been brought up below as to where do you draw the line on how much help is too much, which I think is a good one. You can't (always) control what assistance people will have outside of the game itself - a separate timer, program running in the background or on another machine, someone sitting next to them throughout the game keeping track of things, etc. - but you can ensure that at least the ROM itself provides a level playing field to start. A very similar situation I thought about when considering how to vote - as someone who's played a nearly three-hour game of Space Invaders, having the game do something as simple as track the number of shots you've fired (i.e. pace) would be a big advantage, despite having no bearing on the gameplay itself.

This is not a hill I would die on, but them's my thoughts.
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: johnbart on March 06, 2021, 10:38:24 am: As someone who's long been in the "MAME is the same as arcade and should be treated as such" camp I personally would have no problems accepting scores from a kit with modifications that don't affect gameplay. They would need to be marked so that if some differences in the future were found then they could be properly moved to a separate track.

With that said I think in doing so you potentially open up the list to scrutiny from people who want/like to stir up shit. There are already people who complain loudly about magically different RNG results based on different individual boards and make unfounded accusations that somehow RNG is being manipulated. Having a modified submission would only make those kinds of statements, regardless of if they have any merit, louder.
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: ww on March 06, 2021, 02:15:28 pm: Quote from: GILLYKONG on March 06, 2021, 02:30:24 am
Yes let's stop being silly.

Then we'd be SILLYKONG, in Sillykong Valley.
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: jimhappy on March 08, 2021, 08:16:50 am: Noob input:

Since this topic is as emotional as it is technical, how about we simply agree to accept the opinion of the current record holders? Maybe from anyone who has held the record in the past 5 years? If they object, then it should not be accepted, but if they endorse it, then game-on.

I don't see why someone like me should really have the same vote.

Jim
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: danman123456 on March 08, 2021, 02:26:53 pm: 100% agree. Its 2021 now not 1982. It would certainly make things more entertaining for people watching and all of this stuff is essentially available already. Other games have been "fixed" to squish bugs and actually show remaining lives left this really isn't any different IMO. Same as as Ken mentioned a High Score Save kit should be allowed. I dont think it changes the gameplay at all since most anyone who is a million point player can compute his pace almost instantly or heaven forbid tape a chart to the cab while they are playing GASP!!!
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: xelnia on March 11, 2021, 04:38:07 pm: Right now the voting is essential 2:1 in favor of accepting these scores. It's not as big of a consensus as I hoped for, but at this point it seems likely that we can start accepting these scores. I will let the poll run a little longer. Let's get some more input from everyone (especially from those NOT in favor...don't be shy).
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: Lyriell on March 11, 2021, 04:52:43 pm: I'm not in favour of it, but I'm not strongly opinionated about it. I would assume if it's accepted, it'll be both in remix kit and rom version?

The reason I'm of two minds about it is because at some point, I'm not sure hyperawareness of pace really matters.
I still think about pace constantly... but so much of what happens is outside your control that knowing I got 55k last level is probably going to be worse for me mentally than just feeling like 'oh I had a bad level, I better try and do better this time!'

If they're accepted, can we have them marked on the list as using the pace rom?
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: xelnia on March 11, 2021, 05:04:38 pm: Quote from: Lyriell on March 11, 2021, 04:52:43 pm
If they're accepted, can we have them marked on the list as using the pace rom?

Yes, if they're accepted they will be marked similar to other scores that use Remix kits, high score save kits, D2K kits, etc.
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: Prow on March 11, 2021, 06:12:49 pm: I voted no as I share the same thoughts on this as JV posted; there's extra information being added to the game.

However, what makes this a close choice for me is tilt's post about how this pace kit works using the original ROMs and injecting data. Definitely seems highly unlikely that the gameplay is affected.
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: DonkeyShlong on March 12, 2021, 01:45:27 am: I can understand people's apprehension about something new, but having played Pace vs my original cab, it's clear that it's just as random, bonkers and infuriating ;D I'd argue that I've had more wild barrels in my face at level 3 on pace than I have on my cab.

I'm sure most of us would be happy with a small symbol to the side of it in the HSL just like MAME. I'd respectfully argue that to not allow and be complete purists, MAME and Arcade should have their own score lists should they not..? There are advantages to both versions depending on how comfortable you feel as a player. If you're tall, standing at a cab for hours can hurt your back and put you off your play. Some say that although MAME is identical and certainly not easier, that it's a benefit being able to sit in a comfy seat with a keyboard, allowing two inputs to more accurately pre-turn ladders. I personally just look at the skills of a player on the game and don't care about the platform, and even be cool with Switch scores.

With a Twitch stream, you can see and hear people effing and blinding at Kong, but with an INP, who is to say that they haven't been given that file by an experienced player to upload, therefore pushing legitimate players down the board? That to me is far more questionable than a 'current score' being displayed at the top of the original ROM.

We all know us regulars well from streaming, and what they are capable of with the game. It's a top community and I appreciate the hard work put in to keep this forum alive 8)
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: GILLYKONG on March 12, 2021, 12:51:07 pm: So I guess I shouldn't be silly gilly. There's all kinds of different asterix and stars already. Let's give one for the pace kit. Sock put lots of work to make it work right. let's allow it. Mark it with a sock or something lol. in case something is found to be different later. I mean I play all the Remixes and luv them so pretty much not taking them out if my PCB's <thefinger> ROFL what's the picante.
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: DonkeyShlong on March 12, 2021, 12:53:27 pm: Quote from: GILLYKONG on March 12, 2021, 12:51:07 pm
Mark it with a sock or something ROFL
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: DonkeyShlong on March 19, 2021, 11:14:20 am: It seems like the voting is tailing off now. What are your thoughts Jeremy? From speaking to people who even voted no, presumably as purists, they did admit that they weren't really bothered either way. I saw Matt playing Pace the other night with a great game going. Pace was quite accurate mid way into the game before he lost his last life. If the game was easier for any reason, it would be very obvious with a top tier player like Matt.

Is it looking like it's a go? I'd love to start making it my default for my mame setup and also get it installed on my cab. I did a test stream the other night and people were really enjoying it.
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: CharlieFar on March 19, 2021, 11:55:38 am: Played this version with DonkeyShlong (Luke) on Twitch last week via Parsec (remote play app). I didn't feel or see any differences to the gameplay at all aside from the lag that Parsec introduces. DK was just as unreasonable as he always is.

If it's decided that the pace rom is allowable, I agree with the suggestion of marking all high scores achieved using it. That way, in the unlikely event some gameplay discrepancy comes to light, the scores can be removed to a separate table.
Title: Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
Post by: xelnia on March 31, 2021, 12:09:45 am: This wasn't as lopsided as I was hoping for, but the current/final tally is 25 for and 17 against. So, the ayes have it.

We will now accept scores performed using the Pace feature on Sock's Remix kit.

That being said, this will fall under the other kit rules, where any scores done this way run the risk of being DQ'd in the future if there are any problems found with how the kits run.