Why leave the 933,900? Even if legit, the presence of illegitimate scores would disqualify him from being on any HSL, right?
oops
(https://i.imgur.com/pkXQedw.jpg)
artist unknown
Great work, guys! I'm glad my setup provided useful evidence in this matter. I wholeheartedly support the resulting decisions.
Why leave the 933,900? Even if legit, the presence of illegitimate scores would disqualify him from being on any HSL, right?
All legit scores should be included. Remember, whether a player falsified a future score does not mean that we just remove all their scores that are legit. We want the list to be relevant as well as accurate.
Way to go Jeremy!
Why leave the 933,900? Even if legit, the presence of illegitimate scores would disqualify him from being on any HSL, right?
On that note, I am curious if any additional work will be done to review and determine if Billy has any legitimate scores higher than the 933k point game? For example, I think that there were a series of two or three scores each by Billy and Steve which were all just under and/or just over one million points, some of which were officially submitted to TG. I can remember some very lengthy papers written by Robert Mrukzek a long while back detailing these scores and publishing very detailed and extensive statistical breakdowns of at least one of these scores -- I want to say that it might have been a score of 1.014M points by Billy at that time? Does footage of that game still exist somewhere? Does Robert still have it? Does TG have it? Can that one be analyzed to see if it was also a MAME performance or original hardware? I think that it would be nice to make sure that the "most correct" score is listed for Billy in the scoreboard.
Didn't Billy put up a score greater than 933k on day 1 of a recent Kong Off? I thought I remembered seeing the story at http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com (http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com), but don't find it now. I remember the picture showed Billy standing on top of two Donkey Kong machines, fists raised in victory...
All this "Billy did it for the greater good!" is some of the ROFL twaddle I have read in a long time.
I don't really have much important information to add, but I'd like to speak about a conversation I had with Billy few years ago.
At one Kong Off, I asked Billy:"Tell me Billy, what is your real DK highscore?"
And he answered:"Why does everybody keep asking me that *laughing*. To be honest, my real highscore is higher than Hank Chien but lower than Robbie Lakeman"
At the time, Robbie had a 1,15m highscore (around that).
Personally, I totally believe Billy told me the truth when he told me that. I have a decent friendship with Billy, and the way he told me that seemed very honest. Obviously, he didn't tell me that it was on mame with savestates, which is obvious that it's the case lol. That being said, Billy probably have a real full game with a 1.14m pb somewhere.
That being said, why would Billy tell me he precisely that he has a pb higher than hank but lower than robbie? It could be that Billy had prepared a game beating Hank's 1,138m by 1,100 points, but giving up when Robbie beat it. (I don't know I'm just guessing).
That's all I wanted to add lol. If that's the case, it would be kindda funny Billy would have tried to send a tape beating Hank's 1,138m.
Hi, long-time MAMEdev and PCB hacker here. I had a few comments.
1) What are you guys talking about with the screen rotation? You mean he was doing videos in default non-"tate" mode rather than rotating the monitor?
2) Playing DK in current MAME on an Nvidia GSync or AMD FreeSync setup with the monitor physically rotated should be identical to a real machine aside from the PC inserting 1 frame of lag; this would make it harder, not easier. Prior to the advent of GSync and FreeSync around 2012 there would've been even more frames of lag.
3) No current version of MAME has re-recording capabilities on INPs, nor can you load/save states during an INP recording and get anything useful to happen (the game would simply desync on playback if we allowed it).
4) Getting video out of any standard-res arcade PCB is trivial. You just need a DK to JAMMA adapter and a Supergun.
5) There's no such thing as a "validated PCB". Contrary to the unintentional hilarity in the movie, asking Nintendo to validate a PCB is roughly like calling up modern "all we make is Call of Duty" Activision about the Dragster record. They'll probably make some noises about it out of politeness, but you'd be better off finding the surviving former employees of Ikegami.
So that's my objections to all of this. I don't have a side in this fight, but I do want discussion of MAME kept in the realm of reality.
All this "Billy did it for the greater good!" is some of the ROFL twaddle I have read in a long time.
2) Playing DK in current MAME on an Nvidia GSync or AMD FreeSync setup with the monitor physically rotated should be identical to a real machine aside from the PC inserting 1 frame of lag; this would make it harder, not easier. Prior to the advent of GSync and FreeSync around 2012 there would've been even more frames of lag.
All this "Billy did it for the greater good!" is some of the ROFL twaddle I have read in a long time.
I think those of us who are interpreting Billy's actions this way are well aware that we're being charitable with that interpretation, and we're all conflicted about it.
However, the interpretation that Billy was working alone out of pure self-interest is demonstrably false. The situation is much grayer than that.
We know that, at the very least, there were more cooks in this kitchen than just Billy, since getting these scores produced and verified would have required coordination between numerous people, especially on the technical level. There was indeed a conspiracy here <Mruczek>.
Hi, long-time MAMEdev and PCB hacker here. I had a few comments.
1) What are you guys talking about with the screen rotation? You mean he was doing videos in default non-"tate" mode rather than rotating the monitor?
2) Playing DK in current MAME on an Nvidia GSync or AMD FreeSync setup with the monitor physically rotated should be identical to a real machine aside from the PC inserting 1 frame of lag; this would make it harder, not easier. Prior to the advent of GSync and FreeSync around 2012 there would've been even more frames of lag.
3) No current version of MAME has re-recording capabilities on INPs, nor can you load/save states during an INP recording and get anything useful to happen (the game would simply desync on playback if we allowed it).
4) Getting video out of any standard-res arcade PCB is trivial. You just need a DK to JAMMA adapter and a Supergun.
5) There's no such thing as a "validated PCB". Contrary to the unintentional hilarity in the movie, asking Nintendo to validate a PCB is roughly like calling up modern "all we make is Call of Duty" Activision about the Dragster record. They'll probably make some noises about it out of politeness, but you'd be better off finding the surviving former employees of Ikegami.
So that's my objections to all of this. I don't have a side in this fight, but I do want discussion of MAME kept in the realm of reality.
How long would putting together an .inp like this take in theory?
"I'll let you on a little secret. Most people think I broke the record in one day, but in reality it took me two weeks of practice doing it."
How long would putting together an .inp like this take in theory?
And are we looking at a situation similar to what PAC did?
There are screen shots from the T.V. post that claims it was running Mame. You can see the defect on the right hand side. There is no way you can emulate a monitor defect like this in Mame, so even if someone used Mame in a cabinet, there would be a significant, obvious wiring addition tongue video output from the PCB. But if it was a video capture, then it wouldn't have the monitor defect. I haven't read into the whole post explaining the allegations, but from the screen shots they are making the references too, it's 100% an image of a Sanyo EZ20 Monitor.The likely scenario is the other way around -> VGA mame output to CGA. ArcadeVGA/JPAC is one such solution. I had my current MAME ArcadeVGA/JPAC-driven cab running circa 2004/5. When were the scores in question performed? Sorry if I've missed that detail in all this, and don't have the history fully committed to memory (honest question).
CGA to Vega converters were not available back then, and even if they were, I am not aware of any that can replicate a monitor defect or can adjust an inverted video signal.
Todd Rogers and his wife were in attendance, Robert Childs ofcourse was in attendance, the distributor who brought the game was there, but even more importantly, Peter Bouvier, the owner of Twin Galaxies at the time and a family member, was 100% there in attendance at the time of the rollover of the game, along with others witnessing in the room.
Todd Rogers and his wife were in attendance, Robert Childs ofcourse was in attendance, the distributor who brought the game was there, but even more importantly, Peter Bouvier, the owner of Twin Galaxies at the time and a family member, was 100% there in attendance at the time of the rollover of the game, along with others witnessing in the room.
At 1:53 in this video, the games are over and Billy says that they are "waiting for Pete."
http://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=111 (http://youtu.be/bFLGF933tgc?t=111)
So how did Pete witness any "rollover" when he wasn't there yet?
From what I was told, that footage you are talking about was well after the game was over. Peter Bouvier was there for the game play and there is footage of the game play and overhead of the room. Again the 2:42 clip that Robert took was well after the game was over. This will be one of the many things discussed on the show Bill will be on tommorrow night, Tuesday February 6th.
From what I was told, that footage you are talking about was well after the game was over. Peter Bouvier was there for the game play and there is footage of the game play and overhead of the room. Again the 2:42 clip that Robert took was well after the game was over. This will be one of the many things discussed on the show Bill will be on tommorrow night, Tuesday February 6th.It would be great if Billy would go ahead and immediately release the original tapes of all of the games in question. So the 1.062M, 1.05M and 1.047M games. I think that could go a long way to helping sort this out and provide proof of his accomplishments. There's no reason he wouldn't go ahead and release them at this point, right?
what he needs to do is just go to a welcomed and official place/arcade, whatever, and sit or stand in front of a DK machine that has been deemed 100% verified official and get his score in question.
Newer and even current versions of MAME do try to emulate this scanning, but even still, it will not display the same contents in these frames. The latest version of MAME happens to emulate this scan from right to left instead of from left to right, so the timing information is opposite.
I am about to give the info required to sign in for free to hear the show Bill will be on tonight
Apparently this show has some Kong Off History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_McDonald_(radio_personality)#Special_Delivery
Regarding the backwards scan, has anyone filed either a MAMETesters bug or a Github defect? We have someone working out the nitpicky details of Popeye right now so they might be convinced to take a look at DK too.Yes, I logged a MAMETesters bug last night referencing the screenshots from this thread: http://mametesters.org/view.php?id=6868 (http://mametesters.org/view.php?id=6868)
Newer and even current versions of MAME do try to emulate this scanning, but even still, it will not display the same contents in these frames. The latest version of MAME happens to emulate this scan from right to left instead of from left to right, so the timing information is opposite.
99% of arcade and console games only read the inputs during Vblank, so the rest of this doesn't matter in terms of playability - game state can only change one way during each frame. If you can prove DK works otherwise (the MAME debugger is your friend there) that would be a very interesting data point. Regarding the backwards scan, has anyone filed either a MAMETesters bug or a Github defect? We have someone working out the nitpicky details of Popeye right now so they might be convinced to take a look at DK too.
After seeing Wes Copeland's argument against Mitchell's run, I decided to figure out just how unusual it is.
I started by transcribing all of the blue barrel and flame smashes from barrel stages on Mitchell's 1,050,000 game. Here's my spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1eB_wmBYpyng2jeu29DX0HxWd5AUCzqAEHGjrhjte8mM/edit#gid=0) with timestamps. I hope this is accurate. The video has serious quality problems and much of the time I was stuck inferring scores from digit rollover in the blurry total score. I welcome any efforts to replicate, extend or amend this transcript.
What I found is that the score distribution in the 1.05m run is significantly shifted toward the high range. There are fourteen 300 pt blue barrel smashes and thirty-four 800 pt smashes. On average his blue barrel smashes were worth 570 points and his flame smashes 477 points. Between these two types of smashes he scored 78,500 points over his runs. The odds of this happening fairly are about 1 in 360 (99.73th percentile), or about once per 450 hours of near perfect play.
I suspect a transcription of variable scoring events in rivet and conveyor stages will push the odds into absurd heights.
Thanks goes to @othercriteria for double checking my math, and Wes Copeland and the folks on #mame for patiently answering my questions.
We're not talking about game state at all, simply the manner in which MAME composes the contents of the frame it displays vs original hardware.
DK hardware's video generator reads the contents of VRAM as it composes the signal going to the monitor. That means the scan lines at the start of the scan display the state of VRAM from an earlier point in time than the scan lines at the end of the scan. The Z80 keeps drawing stuff into VRAM while the video raster is going.
Old MAME does not emulate this hardware at all, it simply composes the screen in it's entirety at one time-point in the vblank. This means the image does not contain any changes the Z80 made to the VRAM during that 1/60th of a second spread of time, only a 'freeze frame' moment in time.
This isn't a lack of emulation in old MAME, it's just that on older PCs (and current Raspberry Pis) sampling the generated bitmap more than once per frame was extremely slow, because it involved flushing the PC's caches of everything they knew about the Z80 state each sample. Nowadays we can get away with that.
Unfortunately the left-to-right vs right-to-left thing is weird because we're just showing what the Z80 is drawing, so it makes me think we're gonna need a logic analyzer on a PCB to understand what's really happening.
Does it still draw opposite the arcade hardware no matter the screen orientation 0/180 or 90/270?
Is it possible this cab was using a none sanyo monitor and the inverter they were using (or the inverter they would have used to get the direct feed) is the cause of this?
I have no real emotional connection to Billy
Guys,
I would like to submit some additional evidence. As the conversations continue, things just aren't adding up for me, from the technical perspective. I'm not able to reconcile either scenario, given what is currently known - neither that the performances WERE absolutely mame, nor that they WERE absolutely true arcade hardware.
I think first and foremost, it is of extreme importance, because so much emphasis is being placed on the visual evidence of the gameplay, that the likely environment of capturing of the footage be replicated as best as possible.
Considering technology that was likely used to capture the video, without going into the hardware that was actually producing the gameplay, it appears that:
-The 1.047M video is a camera pointed at a screen
-The 1.05M video is a vcr recording of a direct feed
If there is actual knowledge contradicting these assumptions, and of how the footage was recorded, in part or in whole, please provide that information.
In both assumed scenarios, you would effectively have a 60 hz screen being captured by a 29.97fps recording device. Even if the assumptions aren't exactly right, this is still the most likely scenario for the time period. 60hz screen being recorded with a 29.97fps recording device.
So, I think it's important we replicate that environment for analysis. Comparing a 60fps capture of a 60hz signal is not apples to apples - twice as many frames being captured in this scenario.
Below is a video that as closely replicates the original recording scenario as I am able to without going to the thrift store for a VCR and some crappy old VHS movie to record over. My cab is generating a 60hz signal, my video processor is at 480p/60, my capture card is at 29.97fps, OBS is at 29.97fps. I also have my webcam at 29.97, capturing the screen (60hz).
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/226969998 (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/226969998)
I will let anyone who wants, to draw their own conclusions. In some instances, like on L=1 rivets, there is no "lead-in" drawing of the screen. One frame is the stacked monkeys, the next screen is the entire rivet level populated on the screen.
I will happily provide the non-streamed recording file to anyone that wants it for further analysis and comparison.
Now this alone still doesn't answer all questions, but I think it objectively aids the argument that the recordings were not provably MAME beyond the shadow of a doubt. And I emphasize OBJECTIVELY. I simply want answers, like I think everyone here, and I believe is the intent of the original analysis/OP.
There is also potentially some gray area being created in the visual representations from the differences between the following scenarios. They could be meaningless, but they could also be affecting the visual results. Based on my assumptions above of the original recording environment:
-1.047M tape - analog screen, analog recording (external to the screen)
-1.05M tape - analog generation, analog recording
Compared against:
-My direct feed - analog generation at gameboard, digital capture
-Jeremy's camera phone - analog screen, digital video recording
Below is a video that as closely replicates the original recording scenario as I am able to without going to the thrift store for a VCR and some crappy old VHS movie to record over. My cab is generating a 60hz signal, my video processor is at 480p/60, my capture card is at 29.97fps, OBS is at 29.97fps. I also have my webcam at 29.97, capturing the screen (60hz).
So, how would you 2 propose replicating it in a real-world scenario? Thought I was hitting the mark, but apparently missed it. And if hitting the mark, and it adds to the evidence corroborating that it was MAME, well that's okay. I'm just concerned that using 60fps capture, both my direct feed and Jeremy's camera, isn't an accurate comparison.
What version of mame should be used for the mame recreations?
Ok, I found a VCR. Thank you to my wife for never throwing anything away. :)What version of mame should be used for the mame recreations?
Some version of mame that would have been available at that time. When was the 1.05M recording from? 2007? Might be any version v0.122 or earlier.
Ok, I found a VCR. Thank you to my wife for never throwing anything away. :)
Now, I have (4) external recording devices available to me. Which, if any, would offer the most faithful reproduction of a camcorder? The note about the Powershot outputting in NTSC or PAL refers to the A/V output on the camera, not the recording type.
In addition to those, I have my Samsung S8, which offers: 3840x2160, 2560x1440, 1080p/60, 1080p/30, 1440x1440, 1280x720, 640x480.
Ok, I found a VCR. Thank you to my wife for never throwing anything away. :)
Now, I have (4) external recording devices available to me. Which, if any, would offer the most faithful reproduction of a camcorder? The note about the Powershot outputting in NTSC or PAL refers to the A/V output on the camera, not the recording type.
In addition to those, I have my Samsung S8, which offers: 3840x2160, 2560x1440, 1080p/60, 1080p/30, 1440x1440, 1280x720, 640x480.
The Powershot has an A/V out? I figure live A/V out straight to a VCR would be the closest thing to a camcorder recording (no additional digital encoding, 60 fields per second, 640x480 standard NTSC output.)
If the other cameras allow live A/V out, any of those would do also.
^Scratch that. This VCR/DVD combo only outputs component for DVD playback, not for VHS playback. My avermedia C127 does not accept composite output. So, I have to put it through my VP30 video processor which will process it and spit it out via HDMI so I can capture at 60fps on the C127.
480p/60 good for processing/capturing? There is also interlacing on the VP30 and the C127, no option for 'none' on either. Any concerns there? I did a test run and it looks very clean, every bit as crappy as the original VHS playing back via composite, direct to a LCD monitor.
As I mentioned earlier, the RNG is unusually kind to Billy in the 1,050,200 point WR game. On barrel stages he had 105 blue barrel smashes and 38 flame smashes for a total of 78,500 points, a >99th percentile performance for the RNG.
At my request Jeremy Young provided me with transcripts of Wes Copeland's 1,170,500 and Robbie Lakeman's 1,172,100. Over the entire game, Wes had 99 blue smashes and 85 flame smashes for 91,000 points. This puts him in the 62nd percentile. Robbie made a paltry 95 blue and 72 flame smashes for a measly 80,500 points. This is a 21st percentile RNG result. Tough luck, Lakeman!
This is interesting because it shows that top players world record with bad RNG performance. Billy knocked down the record with an amazing RNG. This is exactly the sort of thing you'd expect to see with a segmented run. Taken with the video evidence of MAME usage it's downright incriminating.
I'm slowly working on the 1,047,200 game, but I expect to see another super lucky RNG. Does a full tape of the 1,062,800 exist? I'm not picking over video artifacts, so really any copy would do.
Taking a different approach with the same VHS recording as the pictures and video above, I dug out an old USB composite/s-video capture device. Using the same VHS recording of a direct feed composite output from DK arcade hardware, I then played back directly from the VCR to the USB capture device. The video was encoded with MPEG-2, and captured at 29.97 fps. In my mind, this is probably the closest to how a VHS recorded arcade feed would have been captured to a PC and then uploaded. This does the transcoding direct from the VCR to the PC.
Same result. You can see the screens transitioning via the "sliding door" effect.
(https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/10/frame1.md.png) (https://klovimg.com/image/32V62)
Fully video here, if anyone wants it:
The TRANSLATION of RGB to NTSC changes the video’s appearance and characteristics of the signal (as in a CGA monitor) to a “more MAME looking signal outputâ€.
I have a DK machine along with a two-bit score converter board,and VCR if you would like to see Billy play another game on this setup and see the results this can be arranged in my store in Fort Lauderdale .
Nice write up, but it equates to nothing. That magic AD725 is an analog signal conversion chip, so no matter how much latency, loss, and color deviations from the original signal, frames aren't going to magically begin to drop out and float into the ozone. Even when Gleed used a VCR to capture the video at 30 fps, the same exact results were seen. No amount of fancy jargon will distract from the fact that the any amount of signal degrading that happens from the filters in the AD725 will not result in frames completely disappearing. And it certainly won't cause the source video to starting looking like MAME for no particular reason. If it turns out there was a digital conversion process here (which would contradict this statement), sure we can discuss this kind of loss. Otherwise, you would never see this happen.
For those who are interested, have a look at this extensive datasheet that includes helpful block diagrams for how this thing works: http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD725.pdf (http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/AD725.pdf)
This is from Carlos Piniero, a SEGA Gameboard tech in the late 90's, early 2000's.....
"I was a game board tech for Sega in the late 90s and early 2000s. I worked on board level repair of our gaming venue pinball machines to building the cabinet/controllers for our classic games. Working the classic games was ALWAYS tricky cause the pre-Jamma / Jamma boards always expected an exact original monitor. Donkey Kong was a vertical CGA output which the board was component tuned for the raster color monitor refresh rates. And these older Raster monitors were hard to find when the Internet was still growing in 1998. I can concur with the technical explanation that has been posted.
Compared to the old pc running mame to the hdmi RasPi new Mame output, the conversion technic would not work with explained setup cause of the video frequently outputs on a computer VGA port.
Robert's explanation is how it would have to be done with an original Donkey Kong board multi output."
SHLONKY, thank you for your in-depth analysis. If I can help in any way, recreating a composite direct feed capture on PC, and then recording it via VCR, which I believe is what your suggesting as to how the tapes were generated, let me know. I agree that is another plausible possibility.
wei ya CV-04 http://www.weiya.com.tw/products_detail.asp?le=english&fid=114&pid=202&tCatName=RGB%20TO%20VIDEO (http://www.weiya.com.tw/products_detail.asp?le=english&fid=114&pid=202&tCatName=RGB%20TO%20VIDEO)
One thing I just noticed with me test setups - MAME .122 is set to not rotate, but appears to be rotated 180 degrees. If you look at my arcade captures, the high score is on the right of the screen. This is also true for the videos we see of the rotated tv's that are used to display the playback. However, MAME .122 produces gameplay with the high score on the left of the screen. This is true whether it's the arcade CRT (VGA out from an ArcadeVGA card) or on my LED, VCR etc (composite out from ArcadeVGA). It's unlikely the AVGA card is doing something with the signal, because the windows desktop and everything else displays properly oriented. Just something I noted, not sure what bearing it has. At a minimum, possibly something that needs to be considered when comparing all of my MAME video to the Billy videos.
At any rate, here are pics of the CV-04. I think that gets a clear picture of all the chips on the board.
[![20180212_123246.md.jpg](https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/12/20180212_123246.md.jpg)](https://klovimg.com/image/3bPdg)
[![20180212_123242.md.jpg](https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/12/20180212_123242.md.jpg)](https://klovimg.com/image/3bHcc)
thanks for the closeups, sadly i cant see the markings on the chip. Is there anything written on it?
tbh though looking at it, it seems very very similar to how the twobits is designed, and wouldnt suprise me if one was made off the back of the other, either that or its just a standard technique.
thanks for the closeups, sadly i cant see the markings on the chip. Is there anything written on it?
tbh though looking at it, it seems very very similar to how the twobits is designed, and wouldnt suprise me if one was made off the back of the other, either that or its just a standard technique.
Load the full res versions. The 24-pin chip is labeled "BH7236AF 612 T04"
https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/12/20180212_123246.jpg (https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/12/20180212_123246.jpg)
https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/12/20180212_123242.jpg (https://klovimg.com/images/2018/02/12/20180212_123242.jpg)
1. GDLarcade / 00:48–00:51 (https://youtu.be/l-LRptUQwFE?&t=47) (https://i.imgur.com/1wiFoAl.gif) | 2. GDLarcade / 02:21–02:24 (https://youtu.be/l-LRptUQwFE?t=140) (https://i.imgur.com/rotQgjF.gif) | 3. GDLarcade / 03:12–03:15 (https://youtu.be/l-LRptUQwFE?t=191) (https://i.imgur.com/NmoBZEM.gif) |
4. GDLarcade / 05:01–05:04 (https://youtu.be/l-LRptUQwFE?t=300) (https://i.imgur.com/wP7qQzG.gif) | 5. GDLarcade / 06:45–06:47 (https://youtu.be/l-LRptUQwFE?t=404) (https://i.imgur.com/U2y5ZL9.gif) | 6. GDLarcade / 08:52–8:54 (https://youtu.be/l-LRptUQwFE?t=531) (https://i.imgur.com/RkNM73l.gif) |
7. GDLarcade / 09:38-09:41 (https://youtu.be/l-LRptUQwFE?t=577) (https://i.imgur.com/6zeoUdt.gif) | 8. xelnia / 08:14–08:17 (https://youtu.be/7y15Y6xrpXY?t=493) (https://i.imgur.com/ZeQahdx.gif) |
after watching the 1.06dk video for the 7 millionth time it finally dawned on me that its been recorded to vhs sideways. You can tell because the static lines are vertical and not horizontal. The two bits device outputs to a standard size screen and will fill the screen the best it can. There would be no reason why it would record sideways.
after watching the 1.06dk video for the 7 millionth time it finally dawned on me that its been recorded to vhs sideways. You can tell because the static lines are vertical and not horizontal. The two bits device outputs to a standard size screen and will fill the screen the best it can. There would be no reason why it would record sideways.
As dk is a vertical game, yes it will appear to be on its side if displayed on a monitor that is horizontally oriented.
https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1413.msg25141#msg25141 (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1413.msg25141#msg25141)
after watching the 1.06dk video for the 7 millionth time it finally dawned on me that its been recorded to vhs sideways. You can tell because the static lines are vertical and not horizontal. The two bits device outputs to a standard size screen and will fill the screen the best it can. There would be no reason why it would record sideways.
If i may add my own personal opinion, then at this time, it seems its possible that the game footage was recorded via pc, the screen was flipped, and then transferred to vhs. Maybe at the time TG wouldnt accept a digital recording? so this passed off as a direct feed to vhs.
Theres a few other things ive spotted with the 1.062 recording but its just speculation as of yet so i will do more research and report back if im confident its not just a conspiracy to add to the pile!
after watching the 1.06dk video for the 7 millionth time it finally dawned on me that its been recorded to vhs sideways. You can tell because the static lines are vertical and not horizontal. The two bits device outputs to a standard size screen and will fill the screen the best it can. There would be no reason why it would record sideways.
If i may add my own personal opinion, then at this time, it seems its possible that the game footage was recorded via pc, the screen was flipped, and then transferred to vhs. Maybe at the time TG wouldnt accept a digital recording? so this passed off as a direct feed to vhs.
Theres a few other things ive spotted with the 1.062 recording but its just speculation as of yet so i will do more research and report back if im confident its not just a conspiracy to add to the pile!
SHLONKY, it would be best not to make speculations or guesses. This is what the Billy team is doing and that's why their statements can be torn apart so readily.
Yes DK's video is sideways. MAME can also output the video sideways with the -norotate option. The first two Billy tapes are sideways but in the opposite orientation of actual DK video because MAME's -norotate option rotates the video the wrong way. By Billy's third videotape the game is rotated the correct orientation because they probably realized they screwed up the first two times, but the dimensions of the playfield and the size of the borders are completely incorrect for DK PCB video.
The Two Bit device could not do any such thing as "fill the screen the best it can". It does not modify, recompose, resize or rotate the video. It simply combines the R,G,B and SYNC signals and multiplexes them into an NTSC composite signal. No brains, no framebuffer, no processing in the device whatsoever. It's a 2$ chip on there, it can't perform all these things people are attributing to it.
hi, i put my personal opinion aside from my findings, please dont think i combine the both together! I understand you can rotate the screen in mame, but my point here on dkf is to just put forward my findings that the DK footage was NOT originally recorded on VHS. If anything this goes towards the mame theory, but because i do not know exactly how mame draws to a screen then i wont pretend to be able to help in that area. But where i can help...i will!
when i said "fill the screen" i didnt mean it was altering the image size, i just meant it will not window the output as seen in the dk 1.062 video. If you read my original post on page 9 youl understand what i mean. The vhs viewable area is way different to the original recorded area.
What an idiot
jealousy and vindictiveness.
Oh, Billy DID THE SCORE, but there is wide-spread jealousy because of the movies, personal appearances, the persona, fame and attention.
Looking like MAME is not MAME, nor a violation that even approaches “cheatingâ€.
* If I remember correctly, MAME had a certain amount of lag on some games at that time. That would have been a negative for using MAME if it applied to DK.
Hello All. I am relaying this from Robert Childs as he does not have an account on here....Direct capture recording via a converter board from a DK machine is certainly possible and has never been disputed. Xelnia accounted for what direct capture recordings look like in his very first post on this thread. They don't look like what is on Billy's videos. The only thing that looks like what is on Billy's videos is MAME.
Here are the pictures of the two-bit converter board along with a scan of the receipt. We bought 2 converter boards over a 3 year period, 1 of which I have in my possession now. I am not sure where the other one is but around here somewhere.
Many have questioned the existence of a convertor as explained in the original post, since the setup in question was done years ago. But everything used in the creation of that tape is being brought together....
Hello All. I am relaying this from Robert Childs as he does not have an account on here....
Here are the pictures of the two-bit converter board along with a scan of the receipt. We bought 2 converter boards over a 3 year period, 1 of which I have in my possession now. I am not sure where the other one is but around here somewhere.
Many have questioned the existence of a convertor as explained in the original post, since the setup in question was done years ago. But everything used in the creation of that tape is being brought together....
...we believe we have now successfully identified and have nearly definitively confirmed...and
Any type of signal conversion from RGB to NTSC (or otherwise) from an unmodified Original Donkey Kong PCB can not produce an image of the Oil Barrel without the Donkey Kong character present, since that image does not ever exist in the original signal.Note the "or otherwise" there. This is posted roughly 20 minutes _after_ Scoundrl has shown counter-evidence. But that's okay! 20 minutes after that, he explains it away as CRT effects. Fine, I can believe that. But then, he continues:
It is important to understand that this can not happen in a direct-feed scenario. An RGB to NTSC conversion going straight to VHS tape never has this moment in the signal. There are no CRT phosphors to hold a partial image for 1/60th of a second and the framerate / field recording is exactly the incoming signal with no image recomposition being performed. The above appears to be a visual artifact and image that got created by the external camera being out of sync with an actual video display.Ummm, what exactly are we looking at in the video of Billy's 1.047M game? Yeah, a camera recording an image from a CRT monitor. At least, that's what it looks like to me. What about the footage from the Big Bang event? Very obviously CRTs. (The 1.050M game does look more like an LCD to me, but I have no idea whether that should introduce similar artifacts or not.)
Hi,
I tried to post this over on twingalaxies, but my ancient account can't post there for some reason.
Anyway, I wanted to say that I'm unconvinced that this frame-by-frame analysis is good evidence. Note that I'm not saying I think you guys are wrong overall. I don't have a position on that, but agree there's a bunch of other fishy stuff (board swap, anyone?). I just think this video analysis is weak.
Why do I think it's weak? I guess the summary would be that this frame-by-frame analysis of transitions is too new for people to be making such definitive statements about it. My opinion, obviously. But when I first read the initial post with the gifs, etc., I thought, "Wow, that's pretty clear." But the underlying assumption there is that there's are always clear differences that we should see. Some version of MAME always does transitions like X. Arcade always does transitions like Y.
If you go look through some video, though, it's totally not the case. Some transitions in Billy's recordings exactly match some transitions in known Arcade recordings. Reality is that even in a single recording, there are a number of different transitions seen. Triforce posted a video earlier pointing out the same thing, so I won't go into it more.
Then there's Jace Hall on TG basically saying how he's an expert in all things video, and after a bunch of analysis, they're pretty sure that the oil can should never appear without DK in the frame as well. In an amazing bit of timing, he then postsQuote...we believe we have now successfully identified and have nearly definitively confirmed...andQuoteAny type of signal conversion from RGB to NTSC (or otherwise) from an unmodified Original Donkey Kong PCB can not produce an image of the Oil Barrel without the Donkey Kong character present, since that image does not ever exist in the original signal.Note the "or otherwise" there. This is posted roughly 20 minutes _after_ Scoundrl has shown counter-evidence. But that's okay! 20 minutes after that, he explains it away as CRT effects. Fine, I can believe that. But then, he continues:QuoteIt is important to understand that this can not happen in a direct-feed scenario. An RGB to NTSC conversion going straight to VHS tape never has this moment in the signal. There are no CRT phosphors to hold a partial image for 1/60th of a second and the framerate / field recording is exactly the incoming signal with no image recomposition being performed. The above appears to be a visual artifact and image that got created by the external camera being out of sync with an actual video display.Ummm, what exactly are we looking at in the video of Billy's 1.047M game? Yeah, a camera recording an image from a CRT monitor. At least, that's what it looks like to me. What about the footage from the Big Bang event? Very obviously CRTs. (The 1.050M game does look more like an LCD to me, but I have no idea whether that should introduce similar artifacts or not.)
What seems (to me) to be happening is that people have already decided that Billy's tapes are bogus. And now they're "proving" what they've already decided, so fail to be properly skeptical of their methods.
You know what this really reminds me of? The completely bogus analysis of Steve Weibe's tape from KoK. Here it is, take a listen, even if you've already heard it before:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTjaF1eEqo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdTjaF1eEqo)
Listen to how confident Brian and Dwayne are about the "altered board aspects" and how wild barrels on level 5 should act differently. They're completely sure something is wrong and wild barrels should be 'faster'. But a decade later, after disassembly and code analysis, along with tons of play by lots of people, we know the truth. They are dead wrong. That is exactly how wild barrels on level 5 are supposed to work. Again: They are convinced they're right, but are completely wrong.
Are you guys doing the same thing now with this board transition analysis and rendering aspects? I don't claim to know, but it smells kinda similar to me. Everyone seems to be very sure that Billy's tapes shouldn't look the way they do.
As I said above, I'm not saying you're wrong overall, or even specifically about this frame-by-frame video stuff. I just think there are very serious flaws in the argument.
Todd
todd ok i admit i was wrong but what about the 8 way joystick he was playing with on his double donkey kong board on that video. You did not give the whole story from the evidence. Weibe did cheat not the same fraud as bill surely you have to agree to that. dwayneFine, but the point is about how easy it is to convince yourself you "know" something that you really don't. (I'm using "you" in general here, not meaning you specifically.)
looks like emu + ridiculous rng + no reliable witnesses = cheating
The trouble with looking to the rng for proof is that it is literally random. As unlikely and improbable as the outcomes are, they aren't impossible and so it can't be used as proof of cheating on it's own. When combined with everything else though, things start to look more and more suspicious. But for absolute proof we need something which is irrefutable.looks like emu + ridiculous rng + no reliable witnesses = cheating
^ looks like it.
Why so little focus on the rng by the believers?
I know Jojo and bh and possibly others have been noting down the numbers.
Does the ridiculous rng look consistent across all three 3 of the games under discussion?
And, are there any bold, clear statistics that should be obvious red flags to anybody who's not an expert at the game? The fact that only 4 of the first 50 blue smashes (in the game under review at TG) registered as 300s certainly should raise an eyebrow for anyone who's only played DK half a dozen times.
Are there any other startling and easy to digest stats like that knocking about? Or are we just going to be bogged down in rastafarianization and screen artichokes (I think those are the technical terms) and such for ever?
lots and lots of words
Mame is an Emulator that is designed to Mimic the processors on the Arcade board. It will follow the commands and rules set in the instruction codes programmed in the Rom. If The Rom states to draw letters first, Floor Second, and Characters last; The Mame is follow those commands just like the Arcade is designed to follow the commands of the program ROM.The issue at hand is that due to an emulation "defect" in MAME, it does not draw quite the same as Arcade. We can see those same drawing differences in Billy's tapes.
He never expected to be questioned over 15+ years later about some recording method he did in the days of VCR and VHS tapes. But we want to get the answers that everyone are now asking out as quick as possible.
looks like emu + ridiculous rng + no reliable witnesses = cheating
Why so little focus on the rng by the believers?
I know Jojo and bh and possibly others have been noting down the numbers.
Does the ridiculous rng look consistent across all three 3 of the games under discussion?
And, are there any bold, clear statistics that should be obvious red flags to anybody who's not an expert at the game? The fact that only 4 of the first 50 blue smashes (in the game under review at TG) registered as 300s certainly should raise an eyebrow for anyone who's only played DK half a dozen times.
Are there any other startling and easy to digest stats like that knocking about? Or are we just going to be bogged down in rastafarianization and screen artichokes (I think those are the technical terms) and such for ever?
looks like emu + ridiculous rng + no reliable witnesses = cheating
Why so little focus on the rng by the believers?
I know Jojo and bh and possibly others have been noting down the numbers.
Does the ridiculous rng look consistent across all three 3 of the games under discussion?
And, are there any bold, clear statistics that should be obvious red flags to anybody who's not an expert at the game? The fact that only 4 of the first 50 blue smashes (in the game under review at TG) registered as 300s certainly should raise an eyebrow for anyone who's only played DK half a dozen times.
Are there any other startling and easy to digest stats like that knocking about? Or are we just going to be bogged down in rastafarianization and screen artichokes (I think those are the technical terms) and such for ever?
Let me start this by saying I'm not flip-flopping on my stance of Billy tapes are suspect, but I do want to give my own fair analysis of the RNG from what I've read.
I would have liked to have seen the RNG issue broken down a little more. I kept getting confused about the 4 out of 50 blue smashes being 300, but then seen it was clarified as being the first 50 "blue barrels", so that even discount the fireballs and only focuses on blue barrels. Still...4 is a lot less than the statistical 12.5 out 50 one would expect from even 25/50/25 distribution.
I looked at Wes' chart about the 1,050,200 game. I would have like to have seen the average value of the blue smashes per board type instead of lumped in the end. Because Billy had much high blue hits on conveyors and rivets than average, and that could be contributed to never taking the "Free Ride" on conveyors, and averaging 3 hit per hammer on rivets (a nice outcome of course).
I've been playing this game pretty regular over the last 10 or so years and consider myself one of the more advanced players. So, I can give basic analysis without even breaking down the statistical averages, I just kind of know what to expect at this point of playing Donkey Kong. And that is, blue hits on barrels tend to be pretty normal 25/50/25, conveyors always tend to yield more 500/800's (that's why getting the hammer on conveyors every time is not a bad move), and on rivets you tend to get way more 300's. And that's just my observations from playing the game and not dissecting code.
One big thing from Wes' chart was the percentage of final score from blue smashes, 17.1% for Billy is rather high, but that could be contributed to lack of barrel grouping. The scores we are seeing now over the last 3 or 4 years are being pushed up due to "grinding it out" with barrel grouping, so it would make sense that other player's percentage of total game from blue smashes wouldn't be as high. (LOL...I wouldn't be surprised if Wes or Robbie could pull off a 1.1M game with single hammer if either of your are looking for a new challenge)
Overall, the average blue smash for Billy of 491 is only 5 pts more than Wes' 486, and could be contributed to lining up more hits on conveyors and not taking a free ride. If there's another thread breaking down the numbers more I would like to see that one.
looks like emu + ridiculous rng + no reliable witnesses = cheating
Why so little focus on the rng by the believers?
I know Jojo and bh and possibly others have been noting down the numbers.
Does the ridiculous rng look consistent across all three 3 of the games under discussion?
And, are there any bold, clear statistics that should be obvious red flags to anybody who's not an expert at the game? The fact that only 4 of the first 50 blue smashes (in the game under review at TG) registered as 300s certainly should raise an eyebrow for anyone who's only played DK half a dozen times.
Are there any other startling and easy to digest stats like that knocking about? Or are we just going to be bogged down in rastafarianization and screen artichokes (I think those are the technical terms) and such for ever?
Let me start this by saying I'm not flip-flopping on my stance of Billy tapes are suspect, but I do want to give my own fair analysis of the RNG from what I've read.
I would have liked to have seen the RNG issue broken down a little more. I kept getting confused about the 4 out of 50 blue smashes being 300, but then seen it was clarified as being the first 50 "blue barrels", so that even discount the fireballs and only focuses on blue barrels. Still...4 is a lot less than the statistical 12.5 out 50 one would expect from even 25/50/25 distribution.
I looked at Wes' chart about the 1,050,200 game. I would have like to have seen the average value of the blue smashes per board type instead of lumped in the end. Because Billy had much high blue hits on conveyors and rivets than average, and that could be contributed to never taking the "Free Ride" on conveyors, and averaging 3 hit per hammer on rivets (a nice outcome of course).
I've been playing this game pretty regular over the last 10 or so years and consider myself one of the more advanced players. So, I can give basic analysis without even breaking down the statistical averages, I just kind of know what to expect at this point of playing Donkey Kong. And that is, blue hits on barrels tend to be pretty normal 25/50/25, conveyors always tend to yield more 500/800's (that's why getting the hammer on conveyors every time is not a bad move), and on rivets you tend to get way more 300's. And that's just my observations from playing the game and not dissecting code.
One big thing from Wes' chart was the percentage of final score from blue smashes, 17.1% for Billy is rather high, but that could be contributed to lack of barrel grouping. The scores we are seeing now over the last 3 or 4 years are being pushed up due to "grinding it out" with barrel grouping, so it would make sense that other player's percentage of total game from blue smashes wouldn't be as high. (LOL...I wouldn't be surprised if Wes or Robbie could pull off a 1.1M game with single hammer if either of your are looking for a new challenge)
Overall, the average blue smash for Billy of 491 is only 5 pts more than Wes' 486, and could be contributed to lining up more hits on conveyors and not taking a free ride. If there's another thread breaking down the numbers more I would like to see that one.
I haven't delved too deep into the 1.05M game yet, but a further analysis of the 1.047M game shows nothing out of the ordinary in terms of variable smash RNG. Analyzing that tape was difficult and I think there was a bit of a rush to judgment before it could be independently verified by multiple people. You can see my breakdown here: https://goo.gl/4BY7gW
Note that I only transcribed variable smashes (blue barrels, pies, fireballs)...no other considerations are made regarding RNG or scoring. Pies are tricky to analyze outside of MAME because the scoring bug that forces some of them to always be 300.
I haven't delved too deep into the 1.05M game yet, but a further analysis of the 1.047M game shows nothing out of the ordinary in terms of variable smash RNG. Analyzing that tape was difficult and I think there was a bit of a rush to judgment before it could be independently verified by multiple people. You can see my breakdown here: https://goo.gl/4BY7gW
Note that I only transcribed variable smashes (blue barrels, pies, fireballs)...no other considerations are made regarding RNG or scoring. Pies are tricky to analyze outside of MAME because the scoring bug that forces some of them to always be 300.
Thanks. I was wondering if you every did a "memorable game" chart on either of those games. But looking at your spread sheet I guess my gut feel that more 500/800 on pies is not correct at all. Just seems that way sometimes.
Hi,
I tried to post this over on twingalaxies, but my ancient account can't post there for some reason.
(...)
I'm trying to piece your post together here and understand it.
(...)
I won't delve further into your comment for the time being because of these timing issues, but if you can clean up or clarify your concerns in light of this information perhaps a more substantive discussion could be had. Alternatively, let me know if I made a mistake in my understanding of what you were saying.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=234Y76_3YPE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=234Y76_3YPE)
This video has some issues, but there are some things that are new and quite a bit of it is true.
First, I want to point out the opening quote from Billy in that video actually continues on to say something like "but even worse still, would be to deny someone a legitimate score." - No real bearing, just some context I found amusing.
Second, the video presents a case that the one game that does have audio out of the three being disputed still on TG shows signs of splicing. I am not qualified to say if the things he points out are, in fact, proof of that. Can anyone here take a look at the relevant section of the video (starting at 4:09 and going for about 10 seconds) and offer a more informed opinion on this audio evidence?
To be clear I am not suggesting you can render a verdict on the entire tape from what he shows, but does the video's assertion hold any water based on what is presented?
Wow great catch...not sure how that was missed.That's what I was wondering! <gasp>
I guess the actual tape will have to show this, couldnt this be just from digitizing it for you tube and there was a size limitation and that’s where the split was?. If tbe actual tape shows this then thats pretty clear.You posted while I was typing up the same thought. :)
Been watching this from Discord, but had to point out that that vid was uploaded in 2017; however, this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI&feature=youtu.be&t=1h53m15s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0ZKEGZpggI&feature=youtu.be&t=1h53m15s) was in 2016, and should start at the right time and does not have that particular video issue that Raven found.
The anomaly is an overlap that happened during the duplication process. It's not a splice.
Well the 747,400 was at the end of the barrel board, the stacked Kong’s next, then rivers start with same score of course. it then backed up to the end of the barrel board again. No reason the score would change. It did look pretty crazy at first but it’s already been shown the original record didn’t have it.
We're seeing the same bit of the game twice, with no scoring done, why would the score change?The anomaly is an overlap that happened during the duplication process. It's not a splice.
If the anomalies were the result of a duplication process, one would expect to see a different score on at least one of the adjacent screens. In this case, the score remained 747,400 on each of them. Why?
Regardless, this appears to be crucial evidence that people should see for themselves, so I'm open to suggestions, as long as it's not Youtube or Facebook because they tend to mangle videos. I also prefer that this information be public.
Regardless, this appears to be crucial evidence that people should see for themselves, so I'm open to suggestions, as long as it's not Youtube or Facebook because they tend to mangle videos. I also prefer that this information be public.
I've been closely examining the infamous Boomer's board swap video where the Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junor records were supposedly broken on the same day. It's the video where Billy Mitchell allegedly scored 1,062,800 points on Donkey Kong, roughly a week before his announcement at the Big Bang Video Game Hall of Fame event in Ottumwa, IA.I'll happily post to Twin Galaxies and won't mention any names. There is no identity compromise you just need to call a number from your given phone number and get a pin code to enter. You can have a fake name, address etc if you want. It's basically just to confirm that you're a real person. They'll have one of your phone numbers and that's about it.
The overall quality of the video is very poor, and despite numerous claims that the same Donkey Kong Junior board was removed then reinstalled in the arcade cabinet, I was not entirely convinced. However, the fact that they never actually showed the two boards at the same time seemed suspicious, and the things they said struck me as being very odd. It's as if they went out of their way to provide much more information than was necessary, plus the entire "performance" felt contrived. With this in mind, I decided to see if the video could be cleaned up and/or enhanced to reveal more information.
As it turns out, the video contains much more information than meets the eye. In fact, it contains irrefutable evidence, if one knows what to look for. I would post the enhanced video to the Twin Galaxies dispute thread, but I absolutely will not compromise my identity to become "verified" just so I can post evidence to a forum which has a questionable history.
Regardless, this appears to be crucial evidence that people should see for themselves, so I'm open to suggestions, as long as it's not Youtube or Facebook because they tend to mangle videos. I also prefer that this information be public.
Well, a good place to start would be to just tell everyone what you found. If it can found in the video, it can be independently verified by others.
I'm open to suggestions, as long as it's not Youtube or Facebook because they tend to mangle videos. I also prefer that this information be public.
I can post there for you, so long as I am happy with the evidence provided anyway! Upload the video on wetransfer.com and pm me the link. Unless the video is more than 2GB, then we can come up with a different plan.
I just want the truth out there and the matter settled, however that pans out.
Upload the video on wetransfer.com and pm me the link.
I'm open to suggestions, as long as it's not Youtube or Facebook because they tend to mangle videos. I also prefer that this information be public.
1) Upload it to mega.nz.
2) post the link
I'm open to suggestions, as long as it's not Youtube or Facebook because they tend to mangle videos. I also prefer that this information be public.
1) Upload it to mega.nz.
2) post the link
I used the previously suggested file sharing website. Here is the download link, just in case it never gets posted to Twin Galaxies. Judge for yourselves.
https://we.tl/ZqTg4UAY01
I watched the video and it looks like the exact same board taken out and put back in. Is that what your trying to show?
I appreciate the effort but I hope you can also appreciate that if you wish for this to be taken as objective evidence that you will need to document, in detail, what you have done to the video to "enhance" it.
I appreciate the effort but I hope you can also appreciate that if you wish for this to be taken as objective evidence that you will need to document, in detail, what you have done to the video to "enhance" it.
I used Adobe Premiere Pro with a sharpen filter (set to 10) and a shadow highlight filter (highlight 0, shadow 50). In addition to the timecode overlay and a simple invert filter on the second video segment. It's nothing fancy, and frankly I'm surprised that it was not done before now. If need be, I can provide a screenshot of the precise settings used, but I think that would be overkill. Anyone with basic video editing skills can replicate the process, provided they have the required software.
It's very clear to see #4 and #5 areas in the original video even without the post processing to be from DK jr board both before and after the "swap".
I'm not sure if anyone has gone into that much detail (filtering the video), but the fact that a DKJR board is swapped for a DKJR board has been established for quite some time (and was part of the initial set of posts in the TG dispute thread).
What I'd really like to know, and maybe your processing of the video will help, is what's on that laptop screen. :)
Something just hit me about that video and I want each of you to watch it now and tell me if I'm wrong. First, is the audio is synced up with video? It seems it is when Billy is talking about the board swap.
When Billy goes to start his DK Jr. game at the end on the video, the credit is in the machine and he talks a little about his tie then hits play. LISTEN REALLY CLOSE. The game starts THEN you here his hand hit the start button milliseconds after.
Now if that's just audio lag, there isn't lag when they are talking about the board swap.
I was once wondered that what if video was ran into the monitor and Billy was in front the machine simulating the game play. What is that blue box next to the PC with the wires coming out.
I'm not sure if anyone has gone into that much detail (filtering the video), but the fact that a DKJR board is swapped for a DKJR board has been established for quite some time (and was part of the initial set of posts in the TG dispute thread).
What I'd really like to know, and maybe your processing of the video will help, is what's on that laptop screen. :)
It's funny that you mentioned it because I've been wondering about that too. To me, it looks like some kind of webcam or video window on the right, with a partially obscured picture of a circuit board on the left. I've tried various methods to make it more clear, but without much success.
Well if the audio is I fact sync, then the start button press after game starts is weird.
EDIT: Scratch that. I just checked the original video, sync is fine, something must have happened in your enhancement video that push the sync off at the end. Button syncs up in original video.
I've been closely examining the infamous Boomer's board swap video where the Donkey Kong and Donkey Kong Junor records were supposedly broken on the same day. It's the video where Billy Mitchell allegedly scored 1,062,800 points on Donkey Kong, roughly a week before his announcement at the Big Bang Video Game Hall of Fame event in Ottumwa, IA.
If anyone wants to see the corrected video, here is a download link.
https://we.tl/8MIPLpcoRz
There are two parts to the enhanced video, where the first part is "normal" and the second part is "inverted", plus I added a timecode (HH:MM:SS:FF) overlay to the upper right corner of the video for reference. The video appears grainy due to the processes used to make the lighting more consistent, plus it was sharpened slightly to bring out more detail.
Here is an image to help visualize the major differences to look for in the enhanced video. I snagged it from the video Apollo Legend made, adding numbered identifiers for reference.
(https://i.imgur.com/ijdheZZ.jpg)
We've known for 8 years that Robert and Billy staged the board swap with the same DKJr board. Nothing new.
We've known for 8 years that Robert and Billy staged the board swap with the same DKJr board. Nothing new.
Who exactly is we? Keep in mind that the Billy Mitchell saga may be nothing new to you, but many people, myself included, have only recently become aware of it. My findings may seem redundant, but they are coming from someone who is not part of the "community", thus further reducing the chances of certain evidence being dismissed as mere conjecture or speculation. Come to think of it, I have not played Donkey Kong in more than 35 years, and I have zero interest in breaking records, but when it comes to deception... I tend to be rather good at exposing the truth.
Raven, yes, knowing that board swap video was the same board has been known for a while, however, I did find your enhanced video interesting and useful. Even though the audio sync thing ended up being nothing, with just a little more clarity sometimes you can notice something that has been overlooked for a while, or a different set of eyes can see something that was overlooked.
Appreciate the effort. I'm still confused about why all this was played out but thanks for doing the extra work on the video. It certainly shows now that there was no DK board there (Which is what im having an issue with currently why?)
We've known for 8 years that Robert and Billy staged the board swap with the same DKJr board. Nothing new.
Who exactly is we? Keep in mind that the Billy Mitchell saga may be nothing new to you, but many people, myself included, have only recently become aware of it. My findings may seem redundant, but they are coming from someone who is not part of the "community", thus further reducing the chances of certain evidence being dismissed as mere conjecture or speculation. Come to think of it, I have not played Donkey Kong in more than 35 years, and I have zero interest in breaking records, but when it comes to deception... I tend to be rather good at exposing the truth.
And for those users on Reddit and elsewhere that were having honest difficulty in zeroing in on the fact that the DK Junior PCB was used the entire time, Raven's video offers another opportunity and vantage point on that fact.
Yes, I have no doubt this is old hat for the DK Forum crew, but there is value in having new "non-aligned" members come into this discussion, devote time to analyzing the evidence, and confirming the consensus, particularly as this discussion is reaching a wider lay audience than at any time the Robert Childs videos were first published. ...
There's no harm in underlining you can't play DK on MAME with a DK Junior PCB. And for those users on Reddit and elsewhere that were having honest difficulty in zeroing in on the fact that the DK Junior PCB was used the entire time, Raven's video offers another opportunity and vantage point on that fact.
This is all good supporting evidence, and hats off to Raven and others for investigating this themselves and not relying on other people's say-so.
Facts are for Lonely Losers!Speaking of facts, here is some "light" reading I recently found online about Billy Mitchell, Twin Galaxies and events surrounding the KoK movie. Which reminds me, I need to make time to watch King of Kong, Chasing Ghosts, etc... for the first time.
Later, the final half-hour of Billy’s Donkey Kong tape is revealed on special monitor set up on the floor of Funspot’s arcade. Once again, Billy has carefully orchestrated the event, and everyone is there. The tension is especially high because that very day a serious challenger named Steve Wiebe had himself set a new record on Donkey Kong. Walter’s voice is like a commentator’s track as Billy’s score mounts: Looks like we may see a milestone here. At the kill screen, the final score is 1,047,200, a big advance over Wiebe’s record. Billy, who is receiving up-to-the-minute reports of the proceedings from friends, immediately asks Walter to update the Twin Galaxies website with the new score. This by-passes the normal verification process. Wiebe should be enjoying several months of championship status while Billy’s record is being verified.
For the most part, all the attention is on Billy. Walter controls history with his book, and the fight for entry, I am learning, can be bitter. Billy’s self-created legacy is deeply inscribed in its pages, and he is willing to maintain that legacy with a certain amount of manipulation. As an official referee, Billy is able to put his challengers scores through added scrutiny. And with his Donkey Kong tape, Billy somewhat incredibly managed to make himself the center of attention from 1,500 miles away. When I later look at the footage shot by our documentary crew, it becomes obvious: Billy was controlling the action on all of the screens.
In King of Kong, Wiebe’s experience parallels Abdner’s, although the struggle is more bitter; Billy claimed that Steve’s board may have been hotrodded and therefore managed to invalidate his taped Donkey Kong score. The director of King of Kong also gives credit to claims that Billy cheated on his own Donkey Kong tape from Funspot, a claim I strongly disagree with, but one that is not entirely out of line with the many ways Billy has tried to discredit Wiebe’s score.I'm beginning to see why so many people don't like Billy Mitchell, and can't help but wonder just how deep this rabbit hole really goes. Seriously, I feel like I've entered the Twilight Zone.
Donkey Kong & Donkey Kong Jr. PCB's have a MAJOR difference that nobody seems to have mentioned yet(unless I missed it) - The edge connector in the top left hand corner of Donkey Kong comes right to the edge of the PCB. On a DK Jr. PCB, the edge connector is recessed noticeably(approx 1/4").
In the Boomer's Board Swap video, the board that is initially shown in the cabinet is absolutely a DK Jr. PCB. This can be definitively determined by the recess of the edge connector. After the "swap", you can once again see the recessed edge connector.
Morningdove A. Mahoney is a long-time competitor in the world of arcade coin-op. A traditional presence at the annual Funspot Classic Tournament in New Hampshire, Morningdove has been an avid gamer who has excelled in the world of arcade video and pinball as well as MAME and PC gaming. In addition to holding the PC record on Warblade and Frostbite Freddie, Morningdove holds 2nd place on Harley Davidson pinball and 3rd on Nightmare on Elm Street.http://thewalterdaycollection.com/collection/gallery/item/0003-morningdove-mahoney?category_id=3 (http://thewalterdaycollection.com/collection/gallery/item/0003-morningdove-mahoney?category_id=3)
With all the fanfare that went on, there was a lot of hugs and kisses and hooting and hollering.
From Twin Galaxies, Pete [Bouvier] was on the phone, and Pete[Bouvier] was on his way over. So I thought this will be great, I'll introduce him to the manager and I really want Twin Galaxies to have a strong foothold in south Florida with a place that's really friendly and cooperative, just like other places like Funspot.
So Pete [Bouvier] was on his way there, so I turned and I said to the Twin Galaxies people there, and I said one more thing I gotta take care of. And I started a game of Donkey Kong Junior, and I thought it was neat because I think it would have been the first time Pete [Bouvier] would have seen a world record. Am I right? No.
So I played, and I guess I was about three quarters of the way through it before I said "Boy where's Pete [Bouvier]?" and then Todd [Rogers] said "Oh he's not going to be able to make it.".
So, that's the story about Pete [Bouvier].
So the distributor brought a game into Boomers. Ok. It was hooked up. The Boomers managers, two of them I think, were there. Their technician hooked it up. Rob [Childs], who's a well known technician, he was there, he hooked it up. Todd [Rogers], who would be arguably, if not the most famous console gaming players, he was there with his girlfriend [Morningdove Mahoney]. And Pete Bouvier, he was there with a family member.
So we have Twin Galaxies there, we have the gameplay, we have room coverage, and when I absolutely had the good fortune, and I got the score on Donkey Kong, and I turned around, one of the people shaking my hand, one of the people patting me on the back, ok, was Pete Bouvier, the owner of Twin Galaxies.
First, Pete Bouvier was not there, now suddenly he was. Which is it?
And it is true that Pete Bouvier had left. It is true that he wasn't there. And it is true that he wasn't there at the end and that I texted him, but that's what I did. Um, and it is true that when the time comes and we look at the room shot of what happened, Pete Bouvier will not have been in the scene, in the photo, at the end of Donkey Kong Junior. I mean, oh well, he wasn't.
I think it would have been the first time Pete [Bouvier] would have seen a world record.
Billy has more to say about this in the interview with Josh Houslander (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6JSzpjo8Oe0).
If Pete had been in attendance for DK, there's no need for this comment. If Pete being in attendance was such an important part of the legitimacy of this event, then it seems Billy, in the 2010 clip, would have mentioned that Pete WAS there...instead of telling a story where he wasn't.
Something else that I missed on the first watch, around 8:20 in...Billy says the recordings at Boomers were "fun", "silly", "extras", and "to be used later for different promos." So...that might be their potential argument for the board swap and related videos. It was just extra silly fun!
With regard to legitimacy, I recall seeing a comparison of scores attained by Billy Mitchell in public events such as Kong-Offs, where he supposedly scored dead last in some of them. If true, this hardly lends credence to his credibility. If I can find the post about these scores again, it might be interesting to factor them into the overall analysis.I located the Kong-Off (public) scores list and decided to perform a quick analysis. Since I finally watched the King of Kong for the first time last night, I decided to compare the scores of Billy Mitchell to those of Steve Wiebe. For the comparison, I averaged their first three Kong-Off (public) scores, then calculated the percentage of their best claimed score.
No offense but I think analysing body language and past scores at the kong offs is a little silly. I'm not a pro at the game by any means my PB is 523,300 and I would say my average game doesn't go past 250,000. So I could keep track of my scores and average well below my PB. His recordings of the games in question speak for themselves they are mame, unless he can provide direct proof that they aren't then he cheated it's that cut and dry. Analysing anything else is just beating a dead horse.
I'd like to see some of these ways. If there are so many, could you please list a few.
I'd like to see some of these ways. If there are so many, could you please list a few.
As I said early on, I have not played Donkey Kong in more than 35 years, nor am I an expert in arcade hardware, so I will leave the gameplay and technical aspects of it for others to prove or disprove. However, being a former programmer and electronics technician, I know enough to know that a myriad of seemingly plausible explanations, either real or imagined, can be given to explain why Billy Mitchell's gameplay looks like MAME.
Ever hear the expression "can't see the forest for the trees"? Well, that's how many people seem to be about MAME, they are so focused on it that they seem to all but ignore everything else. Billy Mitchell certainly looks guilty, but appearances can be deceiving. Ask yourself this, if you were being accused of being a cheater, would you not want people to consider all available evidence?
This is a very complex situation, and no matter where the facts may lead, I continue to remain objective, and refuse to brand someone a cheater on the basis of a single piece of evidence.
Raven, before there was the board drawing evidence for MAME, people in the Donkey Kong community already were suspicious. There was evidence before all of this. There was the board swap, and the super high risky play that would mean certain death for any other player.
I also have to strongly disagree that the MAME evidence is a single piece of evidence. At a bare minimum we are talking about 3 tapes, but more than that we are talking about MAME-like transitions presenting themselves in a high percentage of board transitions. I consider each and every transition with MAME-like behavior to be a further piece of evidence. Only one such transition is needed to show the potential for MAME, but multiple transitions are needed to demonstrate high probability.
Go on then. Give us some.
If there are a "myriad" of reasons it shouldn't take long to post half a dozen or so.
I know enough to know that a myriad of seemingly plausible explanations, either real or imagined, can be given to explain why Billy Mitchell's gameplay looks like MAME.
Go on then. Give us some.
If there are a "myriad" of reasons it shouldn't take long to post half a dozen or so.
Fair enough Raven, I won't press you again.
I wanted to know of the myriad ways because that could have brought many more scores on many arcade games into question. That seems important enough to seek more info
If it were possible to easily and in many different ways fake output between genuine arcade output and mame output, frame by frame, then who knows how many other arcade scores could be dubious?
You could shake the gaming world with your revelations.
The Billy Mitchell 1,050,200 score video does appear to have been spliced, in addition to containing distinct MAME characteristics. To confirm the sound anomalies reported by Apollo Legend, I exported the audio from the video to an mp3 file, then used Audacity to create an audio spectrogram. Note the gap followed by an overlap, which is indicative of a splice point.
Well the 747,400 was at the end of the barrel board, the stacked Kong’s next, then rivers start with same score of course. it then backed up to the end of the barrel board again. No reason the score would change. It did look pretty crazy at first but it’s already been shown the original record didn’t have it.
When I got the tape in Jan. '08, I had the VHS recording transferred to DVD, but it spanned over 2 discs. It's possible the anomaly happened at the end of disc 1/beginning of disc 2 if this was uploaded from those discs.
This is a plausible explanation. I went back and checked again, except this time I expanded the scope of my frame by frame video analysis to include several seconds on either end of the segment in question. Just before the barrel screen ends, the score changes from 744,200 to 747,400 (score + bonus), and the details appear to be consistent with a "glitch" rather than an intentional splice.
because unlike some who live and breathe on this forum 24/7, I have a life and work, etc..
as far as this event goes, You could NOT BE MORE OFF BASE AND WRONG. This is MY event.
So think or ask about something before you assume or judge what an event is for.
Since this matter hasn't yet been clarified adequately, I feel I should step in. Let me begin by reiterating my previous conclusion (which should be very easy for Jace to test) that the recently-rediscovered Billy 1.05M tape is itself showing only 30fps gameplay, downconverted, for whatever reason, from 60fps (or perhaps MAME was told only to generate a 30fps video) by way of discarding every other frame. At the very least, this is what is shown in the two full-length Youtube videos of said score, which is where the above GIF is sourced. My conclusion about the true framerate of the DK gameplay in Jace's tape stems from the fact that there is absolutely no evidence of the missing frames present in the video he recently provided wherein he scrutinizes the tape frame-by-frame.
Now, with that having been stipulated, here is the short answer to the question about the disparity in board transitions: Donkey Kong runs at 60fps, and it does not conveniently begin board transitions on an even (or odd) frame every single time. If you're only seeing every other frame of gameplay, as is the case with every specimen of the 1.05M score, then sometimes you're seeing frames 1,3,5,7 of a transition, and sometimes you're seeing frames 2,4,6,8.
The proof is in the pudding. Here is the complete breakdown of how barrel transitions appear in the 1.05M score as seen on Youtube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfk0WxlSqpo):
00:00:37 Single frame, split 75%
00:04:39 Single frame, split 25%
00:10:28 Single frame
00:16:35 Single frame
00:19:04 Single frame
00:24:01 Single frame
00:26:45 Broken beam, split 75%
00:29:03 Broken beam
00:32:01 Broken beam
00:34:43 Broken beam
00:37:07 Broken beam
00:39:53 Broken beam
00:42:10 Broken beam
00:44:16 Broken beam
00:47:24 Broken beam
00:49:52 Single frame
00:52:25 Broken beam, split 3%
00:55:29 Broken beam
00:58:00 Broken beam
01:00:37 Single frame
01:03:22 Single frame
01:05:53 Broken beam
01:08:22 Broken beam, split 10%
01:11:22 Broken beam, split 90%
01:13:57 Single frame
01:16:18 Single frame
01:19:54 Single frame
(death)
01:21:09 Broken beam
01:23:44 Single frame
01:26:21 Single frame
01:29:10 Single frame
01:32:00 Single frame, split 35%
01:34:23 Broken beam
01:37:00 Single frame, split 8%
01:40:17 Single frame
01:42:51 Single frame
01:45:53 Single frame
01:48:17 Broken beam
01:50:58 Single frame
01:54:01 Single frame
01:56:34 Single frame
01:59:17 Single frame
02:02:36 Single frame
02:05:14 Single frame
02:07:44 Single frame
02:11:10 Single frame
02:14:18 Broken beam
02:16:44 Broken beam
02:19:50 Broken beam, split 8%
02:22:38 Single frame
02:25:13 Broken beam
02:28:18 Broken beam
02:30:30 Single frame, doubled frame
02:32:17 Broken beam
02:35:03 Single frame
02:37:50 Single frame, split 85%
"Broken beam" means the second long beam is visibly broken at a specific spot (as seen in the above GIF). "Single frame" means the entire board appears in a single frame. "Split x%" refers to an anomaly of the screen being split vertically with the left portion appearing one frame ahead of schedule -- probably a quirk of the MAME version used, since the vertical split is not straight from top to bottom in every instance.
Let's compare this to a MAME Donkey Kong score that is also presented in 30fps with every other frame discarded:
MAME Donkey Kong World Record Dean Saglio 1,206,800 HD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnhihX0A1_8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnhihX0A1_8)
---
00:00:15 Broken beam
00:04:25 Broken beam
00:10:25 Single frame
00:16:14 Single frame
00:18:53 Broken beam
00:23:38 Broken beam
00:28:27 Broken beam
00:31:12 Single frame
00:34:17 Broken beam
00:36:46 Single frame
00:40:10 Single frame
00:46:48 Broken beam
00:49:35 Broken beam
00:52:29 Broken beam
00:56:27 Broken beam
00:59:12 Single frame
01:02:55 Broken beam
01:06:36 Broken beam
01:09:39 Single frame
01:13:15 Broken beam
01:17:29 Broken beam
The "broken beam" in this version of MAME has a different appearance (identical to MAME 0.115 (https://i.imgur.com/ygRJmPy.gif) as shown in Xelnia's original post (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=946633&viewfull=1#post946633), whereas Billy's 1.05M broken beam matches MAME 0.116 - 0.121 (https://i.imgur.com/L2EyYP7.gif)). As before, some transitions show the broken beam, some don't.
Here is data from a 60fps MAME recording of Donkey Kong. I've taken the time to note the very first frame we see any portion of the barrel stage.
Donkey Kong MAME 60fps Mame32Plus!0.100 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hIsjyxAGA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63hIsjyxAGA)
---
00:00:25:06 Even
00:03:40:37 Odd
00:06:37:02 Even
00:10:03:50 Even
00:14:35:09 Odd
00:18:12:44 Even
00:22:05:25 Odd
00:25:36:35 Odd
00:28:54:53 Odd
00:31:42:00 Even
00:35:17:50 Even
And finally, the 60fps direct feed video recently posted by Chris G.
Chris G direct capture via Nintendo Inverter Board and Composite Out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkjt17XiPIs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkjt17XiPIs)
---
00:00:22:24 Even
00:01:31:57 Odd
00:03:06:12 Even
00:05:19:04 Even
00:07:52:18 Even
00:08:45:57 Odd
00:11:10:36 Even
00:12:13:14 Even
00:13:13:58 Even
00:13:41:39 Odd
00:15:45:24 Even
00:18:11:22 Even
00:19:16:15 Odd
00:21:13:40 Even
00:22:50:13 Odd
00:24:04:40 Even
00:25:53:29 Odd
00:26:50:00 Even
00:28:21:29 Odd
In short, MAME faithfully reproduces Donkey Kong's unpredictability as to whether board transitions begin on an even or odd frame, and this phenomenon, when combined with the removal of every other frame, generates the discrepancy that has inspired some recent confusion. In every 30fps Youtube video of MAME Donkey Kong, one should be able to find examples of both types of barrel transition: Single frame and multiple-frame.
I should here point out that there's no question about whether the gameplay on the 1.05M tape is MAME. Every board transition does one of two things, either a broken beam (broken the same way every single time) or not. The specific way this broken beam appears is not only an identical match for MAME, but absolutely never manifests in any known actual direct feed or indirect video of Donkey Kong, including Chris G's recent 60fps direct. Meanwhile, direct/indirect videos of Donkey Kong perform barrel transitions with unique but 100% reliable visual quirks which never manifest in the 1.05M video. When I was obtaining the exact frames from Chris G's video, this became blatantly apparent. It is likely because all of this is so obvious that the gaming community at large has been able to form a solid conclusion.
Nonetheless, Jace is obligated to give the matter as thorough an examination as can be done, in order to nip precisely these kinds of potential obfuscations in the bud. This means figuring out the nature of Billy's recording, and whatever else comes along, regardless of how conclusive the evidence may already be.
In short, think of the MAME question as having been answered in brief by the DKF's removal of Billy's scores, and answered at length by TG's pending verdict.
Even with a piece of video equipment that cost several thousands of dollars, they STILL cannot confirm or deny (that's whole the plan in case your wondering ) if the tape loads the graphics like MAME or arcade.Jace just showed us the start of the tape so that we could see how accurately the player was able to show the frames. For what its worth, what Jace showed over at TG matched exactly to the youtube video at that same point, so I've no doubt that further analysis will just confirm what we see on the youtube videos.
I don't care if the machine cost $6,000,000,000, from what I've seen, this "VERY EXPENSIVE" equipment is still incapable of confirming MAME loads or Arcade loads therefore the very fine, expensive piece of equipment is totally useless.
If anything it raises more suspicions because there are NO load states to be observed in any way shape or form.
Finally someone decided to compare an Arcade Donkey Kong Junior transition draw to the MAME Donkey Kong Junior transition draw. And wouldn't you know it, Billy Mitchell's Donkey Kong Junior transition draw looks more like a MAME draw. Props for Matthew Felix for taking the time to do this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIcE-v7lvUc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QIcE-v7lvUc)
Board Average Total
-------------------------
Barrel 10,500 583,200
Rivet 7,700 168,700
Pie 7,700 152,900
Spring 7,200 142,400
Level Average Total
-------------------------
1 7,700 15,400
2 8,000 23,900
3 9,100 36,400
4 8,900 44,100
5 9,300 55,700
6 9,800 58,400
7 9,600 57,100
8 9,500 56,500
9 8,200 48,900
10 8,900 53,000
11 9,000 62,500
12 8,900 53,200
13 9,600 57,200
14 9,800 58,600
15 9,000 53,500
16 9,800 58,600
17 8,200 49,000
18 8,000 48,000
19 7,300 50,700
20 8,200 48,700
21 9,700 57,800
Board Average Total
-------------------------
Barrel 11,000 601,100
Rivet 7,800 156,000
Pie 8,600 162,400
Spring 6,900 130,700
Level Average Total
-------------------------
1 8,600 17,100
2 9,300 27,900
3 9,400 37,500
4 9,700 48,500
5 9,000 54,000
6 9,800 58,700
7 9,600 57,200
8 9,300 55,700
9 9,800 58,400
10 9,000 54,000
11 9,500 56,900
12 9,000 62,400
13 9,800 58,300
14 9,000 53,500
15 9,100 54,500
16 9,300 55,600
17 8,900 53,200
18 8,700 60,800
19 9,500 56,700
20 9,600 57,500
21 11,800 11,800
So, how did Billy do on DK??
I transcribed the scores from Billy Mitchell's 1,047,200 and 1,050,200 point Donkey Kong games, board by board, level by level. Here are the basic stats from each transcription.
1,047,200 Points Game (+1 Life @ 7,000 Points):Code: [Select]Board Average Total
-------------------------
Barrel 10,500 583,200
Rivet 7,700 168,700
Pie 7,700 152,900
Spring 7,200 142,400Code: [Select]Level Average Total
-------------------------
1 7,700 15,400
2 8,000 23,900
3 9,100 36,400
4 8,900 44,100
5 9,300 55,700
6 9,800 58,400
7 9,600 57,100
8 9,500 56,500
9 8,200 48,900
10 8,900 53,000
11 9,000 62,500
12 8,900 53,200
13 9,600 57,200
14 9,800 58,600
15 9,000 53,500
16 9,800 58,600
17 8,200 49,000
18 8,000 48,000
19 7,300 50,700
20 8,200 48,700
21 9,700 57,800
1,050,200 Points Game (+1 Life @ 7,000 Points):Code: [Select]Board Average Total
-------------------------
Barrel 11,000 601,100
Rivet 7,800 156,000
Pie 8,600 162,400
Spring 6,900 130,700Code: [Select]Level Average Total
-------------------------
1 8,600 17,100
2 9,300 27,900
3 9,400 37,500
4 9,700 48,500
5 9,000 54,000
6 9,800 58,700
7 9,600 57,200
8 9,300 55,700
9 9,800 58,400
10 9,000 54,000
11 9,500 56,900
12 9,000 62,400
13 9,800 58,300
14 9,000 53,500
15 9,100 54,500
16 9,300 55,600
17 8,900 53,200
18 8,700 60,800
19 9,500 56,700
20 9,600 57,500
21 11,800 11,800
Doesn't really serve any useful purpose to be that hostile.Indeed it doesn't, but it's nothing new. Regardless, it certainly bolsters my previous point about apparent hostility in the video game community, where it hardly creates the impression of a "welcoming" environment. And to think, I was briefly considering the possibility of dropping a few grand on a new arcade cabinet.
This is the result of extensive testing shot at 120 FPS with a GoPro Hero Silver 4 of all Donkey Kong transitions on both arcade and MAME .106.
The TKG4-14 board was connected to a Mike's Arcade Nintendo to JAMMA adapter then to a Gonbes 8220 RGB to VGA adapter fed to 2 separate LCD monitors. The small LCD was for reference as the game was being played while 19" LCD was being shot by the GoPro. The goal was to remove the CRT from the equation as the scanlines at these shutter speeds make interpreting results difficult.
These results are 100% repeatable and screen and camera orientation make no significant difference.
Other Billy Mitchell
Board # Averages 1.047M 1.050M
1 8,724 8,700 8,900
2 8,296 6,700 8,200
3 8,876 9,700 10,500
4 7,081 6,300 7,600
5 8,546 7,900 9,800
6 9,935 9,400 9,700
7 8,272 9,000 9,000
8 7,403 7,400 7,800
9 8,964 10,600 11,000
10 11,714 9,700 12,300
11 8,270 8,400 9,000
12 11,379 10,700 12,600
13 6,659 7,600 6,200
14 8,035 7,700 8,400
15 11,726 10,500 11,400
16 8,114 7,100 7,900
17 11,662 11,200 10,500
18 6,720 7,300 7,400
19 11,653 11,300 10,100
20 7,592 8,300 6,700
21 11,631 11,800 11,400
22 8,275 8,200 9,200
23 11,642 12,300 12,100
24 6,694 7,800 7,500
25 11,776 10,200 10,600
26 7,740 8,100 7,900
27 11,757 10,900 10,600
28 8,023 7,300 8,700
29 11,579 11,400 9,900
30 6,773 7,500 7,000
31 11,490 11,000 12,500
32 7,324 9,000 8,500
33 11,674 11,700 10,900
34 8,221 6,900 9,700
35 11,526 11,000 12,200
36 6,640 7,600 6,700
37 11,447 11,700 11,100
38 7,249 7,600 5,100
39 11,614 10,100 11,000
40 8,207 6,600 9,100
41 11,521 10,600 12,100
42 6,659 8,000 6,800
43 11,663 8,700 12,100
44 7,554 4,900 7,300
45 11,470 9,300 12,200
46 7,863 8,100 8,000
47 11,500 11,400 11,200
48 6,498 6,900 5,800
49 11,286 8,600 8,900
50 7,412 8,700 7,900
51 11,589 11,600 10,900
52 8,321 8,300 10,200
53 11,542 11,100 10,100
54 6,602 7,300 6,600
55 11,510 11,900 11,200
56 7,668 7,400 7,900
57 11,581 8,800 9,600
58 7,804 7,600 9,700
59 11,465 11,700 12,000
60 6,657 8,000 5,900
61 11,384 11,000 11,400
62 7,291 6,500 8,800
63 11,529 10,200 11,000
64 8,102 8,200 7,400
65 11,470 11,300 11,300
66 6,639 7,300 7,400
67 11,404 10,500 11,800
68 7,256 9,700 9,400
69 11,427 11,300 10,800
70 8,014 7,600 5,500
71 11,703 12,000 10,700
72 6,641 7,300 7,400
73 11,464 11,200 10,800
74 7,483 9,200 8,300
75 11,460 11,300 11,300
76 8,146 8,400 8,700
77 11,484 9,100 10,700
78 6,462 6,700 6,100
79 11,379 11,300 10,500
80 7,236 6,700 7,200
81 11,361 11,200 11,100
82 8,064 8,300 8,100
83 11,512 10,500 11,600
84 6,545 7,500 7,100
85 11,224 10,900 12,200
86 7,430 10,200 5,500
87 11,335 8,500 11,700
88 8,059 8,200 7,700
89 11,226 8,800 11,100
90 6,647 7,100 7,100
91 11,358 8,500 11,100
92 7,443 7,900 4,500
93 11,306 9,300 11,300
94 7,970 7,300 9,500
95 11,158 8,900 10,000
96 6,416 7,200 6,900
97 11,240 8,700 10,900
98 7,161 6,600 7,500
99 11,220 9,200 12,500
100 7,879 8,200 9,900
101 11,130 9,000 11,000
102 6,528 6,200 6,700
103 11,092 8,400 10,300
104 7,446 5,400 6,300
105 11,031 8,800 9,800
106 8,220 6,500 10,400
107 11,156 8,400 9,500
108 6,339 7,200 6,700
109 10,929 11,700 11,300
110 7,394 6,100 9,800
111 11,056 10,600 0
112 7,928 8,400 0
113 10,942 10,900 0
114 6,361 7,200 0
115 10,919 12,100 0
116 7,461 8,600 0
Would more work on this that could offer some statistical analysis like identifying variance or z-scores as well as looking at boards by type (e.g. barrel, rivet, elevator, pie) be of interest or do you think this is not worth the effort?
Would more work on this that could offer some statistical analysis like identifying variance or z-scores as well as looking at boards by type (e.g. barrel, rivet, elevator, pie) be of interest or do you think this is not worth the effort?
I'm a big fan (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1996.0) of statistical analysis. So, in general, I think it's a worthwhile effort. In regards to Billy's scores specifically, I think it's probably a dead end. Every WR or PB is an outlier, all the top players have some kind of outlier in their top games (Robbie and pies, Dean and barrels, Wes and springs, John and rivets, etc.). So, it's easy to find "something" if you look hard enough. I imagine it would be incredibly difficult, but to get any sort of meaningful statistical analysis of Billy's games, you'd have to quantify the odds of him surviving every decision he makes in his games. As it stands, it doesn't pass the eye test.
Now take a look at the start of the 1.05M tape. As the DONKEY KONG logo comes into view, it is solid blue for 42 frames before it starts flashing , and then only flashes 15 times. This would seem to be a clear indication that the game playback was paused when the recording started and unpaused 1.4 seconds later.
Looking at the 2 links, there just isn’t enough to make any kind of evaluations. Here is why...
The Image that is captured is shaky... Then you also see the word play in the corner which is also shaky but NOT a matching shake with the image. And whatever device used to capture to computer would not produce a “play” text when recording.
So I believe we are watching the recording OF a recording of a recording. What was captured to the computer was played. And what was played was already a copy. So having the original ready at start for the recorder to copy so you see the words play. And the final Recording to computer is a copy of a copy.
The "fruit of the poisonous tree" doctrine is an offspring of the Exclusionary Rule. The exclusionary rule mandates that evidence obtained from an illegal arrest, unreasonable search, or coercive interrogation must be excluded from trial. Under the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine, evidence is also excluded from trial if it was gained through evidence uncovered in an illegal arrest, unreasonable search, or coercive interrogation. Like the exclusionary rule, the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine was established primarily to deter law enforcement from violating rights against unreasonable searches and seizures.
The order differences can be seen in the example used in original accusations. Mame draws barrels and Kong at separate times and arcade does it together.
What some are holding on to is the arcade producing a swipe effect in drawing up the stage and mame doing a clean popup of the stage building. Many are missing the fact that the swipe is produced by the screen and NOT the pcb. And mame's captures are NOT produced from a screen recording but direct snapshots of the sequence from memory. This will be explained in more detail soon.
snip:
At least three unique direct capture methods have been created and dozens of new examples of footage have shown my original assertions to be correct.
snip:
At least three unique direct capture methods have been created and dozens of new examples of footage have shown my original assertions to be correct.
THIS
If I hear any more talk about how the monitor is producing this or that, I'm gonna crap myself.
Many are missing the fact that the swipe is produced by the screen and NOT the pcb. And mame's captures are NOT produced from a screen recording but direct snapshots of the sequence from memory. This will be explained in more detail soon.Not true. This was explained in the OP:
I can hook MAME DK up to a 1986 WG K7000 or 1983 GO7-CBO monitor via direct RGB (no A/V or composite video conversion board involved). Only the Arcade VGA and Jpac from Ultra Marc are used.Yes, extensively.
The game will run at it's native resolution at its correct 15Khz frequency Anyone try this?
The order differences can be seen in the example used in original accusations. Mame draws barrels and Kong at separate times and arcade does it together.
What some are holding on to is the arcade producing a swipe effect in drawing up the stage and mame doing a clean popup of the stage building. Many are missing the fact that the swipe is produced by the screen and NOT the pcb. And mame's captures are NOT produced from a screen recording but direct snapshots of the sequence from memory. This will be explained in more detail soon.
The order differences can be seen in the example used in original accusations. Mame draws barrels and Kong at separate times and arcade does it together.
What some are holding on to is the arcade producing a swipe effect in drawing up the stage and mame doing a clean popup of the stage building. Many are missing the fact that the swipe is produced by the screen and NOT the pcb. And mame's captures are NOT produced from a screen recording but direct snapshots of the sequence from memory. This will be explained in more detail soon.
Here's Billy's defense.
Here's Billy's defense.
Billy says the (actual) DK machine screen loading in the video (conveyor/pie transition) shown look just like MAME. What crap. When you compare the footage to the gifs in the first post here they look like an actual DK screen.
fellas, i was in ottumwa in 2009 when that video was filmed. i talked at length with the owner of that cabinet. it was a restoration, not originally red, and it did not have an authentic donkey kong board in it. it was either a double donkey kong or a multigame. pointing at this and saying "see the arcade looks like mame" is moot. that is not an original board.
Must be a DDK because that is 100% an arcade transition. MAME would never draw a single ladder at the top like that.
Must be a DDK because that is 100% an arcade transition. MAME would never draw a single ladder at the top like that.
From the same event is that the DK Jnr attract mode that Barra is playing in this clip??
I think it's running D2K
Would more work on this that could offer some statistical analysis like identifying variance or z-scores as well as looking at boards by type (e.g. barrel, rivet, elevator, pie) be of interest or do you think this is not worth the effort?
I'm a big fan (https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1996.0) of statistical analysis. So, in general, I think it's a worthwhile effort. In regards to Billy's scores specifically, I think it's probably a dead end. Every WR or PB is an outlier, all the top players have some kind of outlier in their top games (Robbie and pies, Dean and barrels, Wes and springs, John and rivets, etc.). So, it's easy to find "something" if you look hard enough. I imagine it would be incredibly difficult, but to get any sort of meaningful statistical analysis of Billy's games, you'd have to quantify the odds of him surviving every decision he makes in his games. As it stands, it doesn't pass the eye test.
Thanks for the feedback, and I do agree just a single outlier is not even close to sufficient to make any sort of claims re: Billy's scores. Having said that, if the notion is that MAME was used to construct some of these scores, I do wonder how the random nature of a legitimate game would not be altered in some way. Though again, it may be very difficult to find how it is altered in a way that is statistically significant.
More specifically, the approach I had envisioned was to avoid the need to quantify individual decisions by focusing on the degree to which some board scores were outliers. Analyzing these outliers in a vacuum is certainly doomed to failure for lack of context, but in comparison to the rate of outliers of peer games of the era we should be able to address that need for context.
With all of that said, I do lack domain knowledge specific to DK so I may not be aware of specific challenges that you have already encountered in your previous efforts (like those from your link).
edit: I do want to add the specific concern you raise about WR games being outliers by definition, is, I believe, addressed to a large degree by focusing on 1m+ point games as so-called "peer games" all of which, I would think, could be considered outliers. I concede the pool may need more refinement, but I do think that refinement is possible.
We are less than 10 days away from rendering a final decision.
Robbie explaining that we have only seen the evidence from one side.
Gonna drop this here:
Billy admits the Boomer video was staged, although it was at the request of Robert Childs (who is now an idiot and a liar, which are not my words but Billy's).
We've seen what the transition frames in MAME look like if we adjust MAME's timing parameters (adjusting the CPU speed or the refresh rate) in the TG thread and it showed that the transition frames still do not look like frames from DK hardware.
I was curious to see what it might look like if we were to change timing parameters on DK hardware to see if that could possibly make DK frames look like MAME frames. I reprogrammed DK's own drawing code to mathematically model the way DK hardware renders video and then made the program run through a range of timing adjustments.
Here are the results. Keep in mind that this is simply a mathematical simulation and I used MAME to do it. It was only meant to satisfy my own curiosity. It does reproduce results very similar to that of actual DK hardware and I think it makes a good visual aid to demonstrate how DK hardware rendering is different from the way older versions of MAME render video. Even if a DK PCB were hacked to run very different timing it still doesn't render frames that look like MAME. It can't for the same reason that older versions of MAME won't render frames that look like DK hardware even if you adjust MAME's timing parameters. They both have very different methods of composing the video and give different results
Has anyone else noticed that the direct recording of a pcb on:
https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1315.msg24208#msg24208
https://donkeykongforum.net/index.php?topic=1413.msg25141#msg25141
Has the score on the right of the screen, but the tapes on the twin galaxies thread have the image rotated 180 degrees and so the score is on the left?
MAME -norotate is supposed to match a direct recording of a pcb, but it has always displayed it like the video tape.
Is there an explanation for the 180 degree flip from the direct recording, or is MAME (and the videos uploaded to twin galaxies) just wrong?
the explanation is whoever recorded the first 2 tapes screwed up and had the image rotated the wrong way! Or as you say, the way mame shows it! ...theyd noticed by tape 3 and rotated it the right way.
Thanks for the feedback, and I do agree just a single outlier is not even close to sufficient to make any sort of claims re: Billy's scores. Having said that, if the notion is that MAME was used to construct some of these scores, I do wonder how the random nature of a legitimate game would not be altered in some way. Though again, it may be very difficult to find how it is altered in a way that is statistically significant.
More specifically, the approach I had envisioned was to avoid the need to quantify individual decisions by focusing on the degree to which some board scores were outliers. Analyzing these outliers in a vacuum is certainly doomed to failure for lack of context, but in comparison to the rate of outliers of peer games of the era we should be able to address that need for context.
With all of that said, I do lack domain knowledge specific to DK so I may not be aware of specific challenges that you have already encountered in your previous efforts (like those from your link).
edit: I do want to add the specific concern you raise about WR games being outliers by definition, is, I believe, addressed to a large degree by focusing on 1m+ point games as so-called "peer games" all of which, I would think, could be considered outliers. I concede the pool may need more refinement, but I do think that refinement is possible.
There is one way to do a statistical analysis which would help identify MAME abuse scores -
The way the 300/500/800 point system breaks down means that a player gets an average 525 points for a blue barrel or pie, and an average 450 points for a fireball. The scores are determined at 'random' within the game and are not at all controllable by the player. If you counted the number of blue barrel/pie smashes and fireball smashes in a game played on an arcade machine, you should get close to the expected averages for each smash category. For example, a typical arcade machine player might get slightly higher than average on pies but slightly lower than average on fireballs over the course of one game, but in general still close to the averages. These averages are independent of gameplay, it doesn't matter if a player likes to smash lots of pies for example, their average score per pie should still be roughly the expected average. If a player was abusing MAME and replaying for favourable scoring, I would expect that their smash scores would be generally higher than the expected average for each of the 3 smash categories. If for example they consistently scored more than the average in each category, maybe over multiple fake MAME video-tape submissions, it would look like the fingerprint of a cheater. You would have to get stats on each smash in a game though and whether or not 300, 500 or 800 was scored. You could then calculate how many standard deviations away from the mean someone was and how likely such a feat was.
There was a chart posted on Twitter showing that Billy Mitchell achieved a high proportion of his score from hammer smashes. I note that he had a good proportion of smashes on rivets, where you can only smash fireballs which overall score less than pies and blue barrels, yet his overall smash average (his "smaverage"?) was still pretty high. Unfortunately that chart didn't have an exact breakdown for number of actual blue barrels / pies / fireballs smashed so that average scores could not be determined for each. Maybe Billy Mitchell is so awesome that his method of playing means that the fireballs line up for the slaughter (averaging over 3 fireballs smashed per rivet hammer), but he cannot be so awesome that, for example, he tosses a coin and gets heads 60% of the time.
“Today, he is co-founder of the Kong Off Donkey World Champoionshipsâ€
Uhhh….what?
This is one of the points of contention, which I believe Jeremy addressed in the original POST
^Good info.
The crystal on the TBS encoder is 3.57mhz. The instructions say to convert it to PAL, replace the crystal with one of frequency 4.48 mhz and move a jumper. I tried moving the jumper alone, and got a black/white signal out of it that was black/white on all devices.
Jace recently posted (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=961122&viewfull=1#post961122) a bunch of information regarding Mr Mitchell's recording methods and how they seem to be capturing a mono-chromatic recording.
Based on NTSC standards a normal domestic (US) VCR is probably expecting a ~3.58 Mhz chrominance subcarrier frequency but I have no idea what the setup is actually generating. Taking a look at some of the PAL standards it's possible there are some VCRs out there that just might get some color out of the setup, but no telling if it would be accurate.
The reason the Two-Bit and other similar RGB to NTSC devices will not generate a proper composite color output is because these devices use the H-Sync pulses that are output by DK hardware to figure out where the colorburst reference should be inserted into the composite video signal.
Both H and V syncs generated by DK hardware are not up to NTSC specification. An RGB monitor wouldn't care if the H-Sync is the wrong width - it only cares that it's there at all, so it'll happily display video. NTSC composite video on the other hand contains additional reference signals at specific points in time to tell the receiver the frequency and phase of the color carrier that's needed in order to decode colors.
The short explanation is if the H-Sync pulses are too wide or too narrow the RGB to NTSC converter will not insert the colorburst signal into the correct time window. If the signal is not positioned correctly a VCR/TV/etc will have difficulty locking to the color carrier, hence have difficulty decoding the colors or even fall back to legacy B&W mode.
There is an added complication because VHS doesn't have enough bandwidth to store the NTSC signal.
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/173626/video-home-system-vhs-bandwidth
The VHS recorder assumes a lot about the incoming signal and won't tolerate anything that doesn't closely match the NTSC specification. Home computers in the 1980's didn't output legal NTSC (or PAL) signals either, good enough for monitors but a lot of VHS decks had problems. Some VHS decks are more tollerant than others (both recording and playing back), some people could only get B&W recordings while others could get colour.
It's pretty difficult to create an interlaced output from a direct feed from an unmodified donkey kong board, yet on the TG thread they are talking about odd and even frames. It's possible that when the VHS was transcoded the software expected the source signal to be interlaced and that has introduced artifacts.
Or the donkey kong board may have been hacked to produce a more valid NTSC signal, which will change the cpu's timing relative to the video output. Every scan line in a progressive frame is the same length, while an interlaced frame has one line that is only half the length of all the others. This affects the frame rate, changing the frame rate in MAME is what caused the transitions to change. This might be enough to create the MAME transition from an arcade board and will likely change the random number generation as well. Billy might be correct in saying it's not MAME and he may not have intentionally cheated, but it doesn't mean the score is valid.
A lot of this is good added info, thanks. But to clarify when you're talking about the "correct time window" we are just talking about lining up with the zero phase of the sub-carrier frequency, no? If not, I would be grateful if you could explain my misunderstanding. Thanks!~
Based on NTSC standards a normal domestic (US) VCR is probably expecting a ~3.58 Mhz chrominance subcarrier frequency but I have no idea what the setup is actually generating. Taking a look at some of the PAL standards it's possible there are some VCRs out there that just might get some color out of the setup, but no telling if it would be accurate.
There is an added complication because VHS doesn't have enough bandwidth to store the NTSC signal.
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/173626/video-home-system-vhs-bandwidth
The VHS recorder assumes a lot about the incoming signal and won't tolerate anything that doesn't closely match the NTSC specification. Home computers in the 1980's didn't output legal NTSC (or PAL) signals either, good enough for monitors but a lot of VHS decks had problems. Some VHS decks are more tollerant than others (both recording and playing back), some people could only get B&W recordings while others could get colour.
It's pretty difficult to create an interlaced output from a direct feed from an unmodified donkey kong board, yet on the TG thread they are talking about odd and even frames. It's possible that when the VHS was transcoded the software expected the source signal to be interlaced and that has introduced artifacts.
Or the donkey kong board may have been hacked to produce a more valid NTSC signal, which will change the cpu's timing relative to the video output. Every scan line in a progressive frame is the same length, while an interlaced frame has one line that is only half the length of all the others. This affects the frame rate, changing the frame rate in MAME is what caused the transitions to change. This might be enough to create the MAME transition from an arcade board and will likely change the random number generation as well. Billy might be correct in saying it's not MAME and he may not have intentionally cheated, but it doesn't mean the score is valid.
That all makes sense...except I think where the TG thread is discussing the odd/even frames they are not referring to the interlaced frames generated from the source as even/odd so much as they are talking about the issue resulting from a 60.6 Hz source captured by a 30 Hz medium.
The DK hack sounds like it might be an interesting project if someone was curious enough. In the case of Billy, though, he's gone to great lengths to testify that, in order to avoid further King of Kong "shenanigans" about PCB tampering, he had the DK PCB independently verified as original/unmodified before and after he put up his 1.05 and 1.06 million scores.
It seems the syncs coming from the DK PCB confuse the RGB-to-NTSC chip and the composite sync and colorburst is pretty messed up looking - The signal levels are wrong. The timing is messed up. The colorburst seems to be too short. I haven't made full sense of the why yet, but it's safe to say most NTSC devices are going to have trouble decoding colors from this video signal.
Look what I just found and posted to the BM DK dispute thread
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iirf4_jiX0Y&t=3h28m32s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iirf4_jiX0Y&t=3h28m32s) - Jace Hall is discussing one of Billy's MAME tapes
If you don't see the score bobble up then back down then back up within 2 seconds hit F5 and look again. Or you can pause and hit comma and full-stop to scroll back and forth frame by frame.
I thought that was brought up as a cut point on the DVD from Dwayne himself. That is why it overlaps a bit.Look what I just found and posted to the BM DK dispute thread
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iirf4_jiX0Y&t=3h28m32s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iirf4_jiX0Y&t=3h28m32s) - Jace Hall is discussing one of Billy's MAME tapes
If you don't see the score bobble up then back down then back up within 2 seconds hit F5 and look again. Or you can pause and hit comma and full-stop to scroll back and forth frame by frame.
We should get the "slow-mo guys" on youtube to analyze Billy's tape.
I specifically asked Carlos how much more time he needs to get through his process, and I told him that we are waiting to include his findings and evaluate them before finalizing a decision. I also told him that we have limited time to wait for him. He understood and had no issue and indicated the desire to be done quickly as well.
He said he will provide TG with a time estimate shortly. I indicated that we have allowed for at least through the weekend for him to finish up his work, but a decision will need to be made very shortly after that no matter what.
He said he will provide TG with a time estimate shortly.
This is an amazing visualization of the differences. The simulated scan line makes it so clear.
Thanks for putting this together.
Attached is a visualization contrasting the rendering behavior of a genuine Donkey Kong cabinet and MAME. Original hardware performs a linear scan of video ram (upper left) writing the contents to screen (upper right). The Z80 CPU and video generation are on separate boards. Their behavior isn’t synchronized and the Z80 happily writes to video ram while the video board composes the screen. MAME took shortcuts and didn’t emulate this async interaction between the Z80 and the video generator. It reads the entire contents of video ram at once (lower left) and renders discrete frames (lower right).
This leads to pronounced differences in frame generation.
Wes 4:22 | Wes 9:02 |
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89b6YF.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89b6YF) | (https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bQJ0.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bQJ0) |
Billy 0:13 | Billy 3:53 |
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bgw5.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bgw5) | (https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bZSC.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bZSC) |
Billy 9:38 | Wes 25:50 |
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bRfb.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bRfb) | (https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bBpM.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bBpM) |
Wes 11:33 | Wes 17:40 |
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bVSD.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bVSD) | (https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bqRA.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bqRA) |
Billy 6:03 | |
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bt1z.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bt1z) | |
Wes 11:56 | Wes 48:35 |
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89b9xq.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89b9xq) | (https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bmFQ.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bmFQ) |
Wes 7:53 | Billy (1.05m) 3:08 |
(https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bJ23.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bJ23) | (https://i.lensdump.com/i/89bkBr.md.jpg) (https://lensdump.com/i/89bkBr) |
Here are the rest of the the DK render models.
What version of MAME is that? In 2008 MAME switched to scan line rendering, which still isn't perfect as instead of looking at vram once it looks at vram 224 times. I'm interested in how much that changes the output. 0.196 has the -norotate orientation matching a direct pcb recording, so that will make a difference too.
...In live hardware I would not be surprised to see arcade play with and/or without this ladder but this analysis indicates we should expect it. You can see an example of this from Wes (https://youtu.be/23RNHhzMbew?t=4m22s) at 4:22 but notice we get an extra ladder on the left side one girder up. I think this demonstrates that this analysis does have some limitation and that verification is necessary. To continue the point however this extra ladder is not always there as seen in the same video by wes at 9:02. But more to the point, this extra ladder and a friend appear to tag along in Billy's 1.04m video (https://youtu.be/KYtJzRcvOzk) at 0:13 and 3:53 (literally the first two barrel transitions in the video)...
No current version of MAME will render like arcade because it scans VRAM in the wrong direction (it starts at the right and works towards the left instead of the other way around). The -norotate option doesn't affect the order in which the framebuffer is composed so the output frames will not change in composition.
...In live hardware I would not be surprised to see arcade play with and/or without this ladder but this analysis indicates we should expect it. You can see an example of this from Wes (https://youtu.be/23RNHhzMbew?t=4m22s) at 4:22 but notice we get an extra ladder on the left side one girder up. I think this demonstrates that this analysis does have some limitation and that verification is necessary. To continue the point however this extra ladder is not always there as seen in the same video by wes at 9:02. But more to the point, this extra ladder and a friend appear to tag along in Billy's 1.04m video (https://youtu.be/KYtJzRcvOzk) at 0:13 and 3:53 (literally the first two barrel transitions in the video)...
There's something that needs to be taken into account when looking at game footage taken with a camera pointed at a screen. Many video cameras have rolling shutters. The shutters are also not necessarily synchronized with the screen and not necessarily open for 1/60th of a second. The extra ladder you mention does not actually ever appear in the output from a DK PCB but is simply an artifact of the interaction between the camera's shutter and the scanning electron beam on the game CRT. The still shots in your examples show multiple overlapped partial game frames blended together into one image. The effect can usually be taken into account by looking for the 'cut' lines, usually diagonal lines with soft edges. In the blue triangle in the bottom of the image below, one of the ladders is brighter than the other. This indicates that the brighter ladder was present in both Frames 2 and 3, while the darker ladder was only present in one of the frames - we can deduce its presence in Frame 3 because in this context it's very unlikely that it was present in Frame 2 and then NOT present in Frame 3.
Before 0.196, MAME had the equivalent of this hardware mod applied.
http://www.brasington.org/arcade/tech/flip/dk.shtml
0.196 and later has it the opposite way.
I'm aware of the rolling shutter, the problem I have is that my understanding is that rolling shutter would be left/right or top/bottom depending on the camera. It's sort of like a piece of paper with lines drawn from edge to edge, and each line adds at least 1 more region and each region can be a window into a different moment in the frame transitions. So what I am trying to understand is, if the DK cab is creating a diagonal "line on the paper" why are both "lines on the paper" (which are basically just the borders between frames) roughly parallel to each other when the camera should be left/right or top/bottom? What am I missing in this understanding?
Last I checked the emulated Z80 in MAME executed code considerably faster than it does on arcade hardware. The emulation did not implement wait states when the Z80 reads or writes from DK's VRAM.
My Conclusion on the 1.047 & 1.050 game tapes is that they were NOT generated from a Genuine Nintendo Donkey Kong PCB. The signatures which are normally produced by those PCB's are NOT on the recordings.
Commentary Irrelevant to the Dispute.
Chest puffing to sell his legal credentials.
Baseless legal threats/lame attempts to question the validity of the dispute.
DWAYNE DID IT!!!
Text relevant to a post on the dispute thread.
It has been 67 days since “Team Billy†has known of the Jeremy Young Dispute. Throughout this time many strange things have occurred. People who were once friends have become frothing accusers. Threats of all kinds, including threats of death, have been issued to Billy and his family. His life, income and peace has been disrupted, and still the mob of haters … whom suddenly ALL have become arcade AND MAME experts, continue their dispensing of personally-targeted hate. All of this inane activity, that even Junior High schoolers would be embarrassed by, is over a #12 video game score that has not been a record of any kind in over 5 years.
Not being a video game technical expert, or ever caring to be … I tried to use my training to help my friend of 35 years in an area that I could be of assistance. My training is in paralegal science. No, that is not an attorney, but anyone in the legal profession knows the paralegal is the worker ant while the attorney is just the ant queenJ. The paralegal is the steak, the attorney is the sizzle.
I am fortunate to know four good attorneys in diverse areas of practice including one who has successfully argued and won before the United States Supreme Court. I am diligent enough over the last 6 weeks to have spent over 130 hours in research citing case law and cases that can be relevant to this situation.
While I had originally written, with my cites and instances, 14 pages of information showing the misuse of the Dispute System within the membership system of Twin Galaxies PLUS the fact that there were over 30 instances of improper and discriminatory application … I decided the average reader would not read the 14 pages, nor care to understand its legal applications of which I could have easily added 4-5 more. PLUS, there is no need to give the opposition info that they should know and should have researched themselves. I do not work for them and there is no future in aiding the competition. So I decided to shorten the post. Besides, why show them what they will possibly be up against in court?
I will say this: there is no doubt that Twin Galaxies has definitely contributed to the defamation of Billy Mitchell.
* Twin Galaxies contributed to the defamation by their self-designed and very PUBLIC Dispute System (even Guinness World Records has a much more private system they have used while investigation of impropriety is on-going).
* Twin Galaxies (TG) owner Jace Hall has basically taken over Jeremy Young’s original dispute with his comments. Jace is not only the Judge deciding if the disputed score stays or goes but Jace is also the arbiter that decides if the evidence is inconclusive in PROVING the dispute (against someone who is ALREADY listed on the scoreboard). In the Young Dispute Jace Hall now has become the prosecutor in this essentially powerless jury system. Yes, members do get to vote, but TG officials (i.e. Jace Hall and possibly one other) make the FINAL judgement.
* The original dispute by Jeremy Young contended that Billy’s 1,062,800 was MAME. When TG was asked to simply reproduce the tape, THEY COULD NOT. TG ownership contended that they just “took over†4 years ago and that they just weren’t responsible, they “didn’t even know†if Billy had ever actually given TG the tape (Yet that creates another allegation against Billy’s character and we have several witnesses to counterman that spurious accusation).
HOWEVER, I contend that TG has an on-going fiduciary responsibility to have “evidence in any dispute†BEFORE bringing a man’s legacy, reputation and good-standing character into question. Instead, Jace Hall has imposed his ultimate authority as head of a private company that provides a public service to members and non-members alike in allowing a process that is based upon a LACK OF EVIDENCE that TG should possess, but now wants to cry they may not have ever had it.
* Even though TG has had its new ownership for 4 years, it has WILLFULLY NEGLECTED its fiduciary duties to gather and archive the records it is responsible for on a timely and complete basis. There are several depositories of past TG tapes all over America. How do I know, I have one right in my house!
* TG also fails in its fiduciary responsibility to those whose scores it oversees (namely Bill Mitchell) and TG also fails in simple good common sense … to accept copies of tapes from a well-documented frothing hater of Billy Mitchell, Dwayne Richard. Richard has made a movie about Billy Mitchell, made phone and email threats to Billy, Billy’s family, and to Billy’s wife’s work. Dwayne Richard has been used by Jace Hall in the past when Jace was contemplating joining in with Jordan Adler of Denver in a competing “Kong-Off style event†several years ago. From the words of Dwayne’s own mouth “Jace gave me $500 to get out to Pittsburgh to check this out for himâ€. Collusion?
* This is the same Dwayne Richard who “made a movie†about Billy, whom Jace admitted supplied TG (Jace) with the tapes of Billy and Steve Weibe’s game play.
* The same Dwayne Richard who is seen in a YouTube clip with EDITING equipment upon his desk.
* This is the same Dwayne Richard who reportedly said to several different people, whom WILL TESTIFY in court, that Dwayne ask their help in pulling a “fast one†on Billy Mitchell with a “MAME fake†as early as 2009.
While the technical aspects are not my speciality:
1. I can look in someone eyes whom I known for 35 years and discern the truth or a lie.
2. I can remember seeing Billy do 1,000,000+ twice in all our thousands of miles of travels and 50+ appearances together (the scores were low into the millions and not world records).
3. I know that while Jace has all appearances of an honorable man, and has never done me personally wrong … like all dedicated and great gamers, he has an ego. That ego does not like to admit it is wrong.
4. Jace should have NEVER listened to someone with such a history as Dwayne Richard. That kind of obsessive and destructive behavior in “reputable consultants†is NOT the legacy that for which Walter Day intended for his legacy to be associated. I believe Jace has been DECEIVED by Dwayne Richard, as ALL the mob of haters has been so led.
IF YOU START WITH A FALSE TAPE, ALL “PROOFS†ARE WITHIN THE REALM OF THAT FALSE TAPE.
Richard has had 7 years+ to fabricate his AVOWED revenge against Billy for Richard’s inane feeling that HE should have been in the King of Kong movie. Jace (TG) has fallen right into a clever disguised ruse.
5. As far as the technical aspects, as more and more items were disproved by Carlos and David Race of Team Billy, then intelligently explained away … the TG Mob (which IS what they became) kept making more and more absurd accusations, they kept moving the “goal posts†(the essence of the dispute) and their frothing hate escalated. Meanwhile, Jace Hall watched … as his site hits kept climbing (controversy IS cash!!!). Jace allowed the focus to move to scores NOT EVEN ON THE TG SITE for 8+ years (1.050 and 1.047). These scores were allegedly put on YouTube by, can you guess … Dwayne Richard!
6. Jace has allowed the TG Mob to froth hate, defame Billy (as well as others of Team Billy) and do little to nothing to stop it. One can tell by Jace’s post as of late that he has been legally advised as how to write and appear vague, pseudo-fair and to appear not responsible for the hateful, defaming actions of others. That will have to be decided in court.
7. I propose to Jace Hall (TG) to SUSPEND this dispute now and do the following:
A. STOP allowing the persecution of the MOST Famous Classic Gamer in History (one of the TWO individuals who made your company, TG, SO valuable) … issue an apology to Billy AND his family PLUS direct your thread members to do likewise,
B. Get Dwayne Richard and Billy Mitchell in one location and get a certified independent polygraph operator to ask questions of BOTH while on camera and judge their answers. If you so desire, you could request Rob (board swap) Childs, Wes Copeland or anyone else you see as pertinent to this situation to have an invitation to be polygraphed.
You have been quoted as saying that polygraphs are just “gauges of who is the most nervousâ€. That is an absurd statement. The FBI isn’t in the habit of gauging one’s uneasiness. While the courts are skittish in allowing these machines, which would put some lawyers out of business, they are trustworthy enough for TG’s purposes. If trustworthiness of TG’s actions are in question … “moving the goalpost from 1.062 to 1.050 and 1.047. TG would not be talking about a “finger†then discounting it. TG would not be allowing the froth over the “board swap†to go on for weeks then discounting that video altogether when interest waned and internet hits slowed,
C. Prepare to negotiate a financial settlement if Billy is shown telling the truth OR if Dwayne is shown to have perpetrated this hoax.
There there is lack of integrity and there is breach of responsibility on TG’s part in this entire affair. TG DOES want the “Dwayne made-it-up†allegations answered, do they not? They do want to know if the MOST Famous player in classic gaming history is telling the truth, right? Or does, TG want to continue their flawed Dispute System where the accused are never notified by TG and well-crafted “made-up†allegations can destroy a man’s legacy, reputation, family and mental health?
Don’t just be a “businessman†Jace, be a MAN, and treat others like you would want to be treated. Keep this out of the court system, because that IS where this is headed. This is no longer about a score, but about the harm your public Dispute System and TG’s members have caused a man who has GIVEN himself to all your betterment and even tho you once said you “respected†the old scores … you have designed the system and fueled the froth to injure this man’s legacy, reputation and harm him and his family. You still have NO proof, just froth-spun innuendo. The “millions of dollars in new investment†TG now has will not be able to be used to make your company grow, if you continue to tear down an innocent man.
Joel West
My Conclusion on the 1.047 & 1.050 game tapes is that they were NOT generated from a Genuine Nintendo Donkey Kong PCB. The signatures which are normally produced by those PCB's are NOT on the recordings.
Repeated testing and viewing of the game on those tapes do not demonstrate the signatures found on recordings coming out of Genuine Nintendo Donkey Kong Arcade boards." End Quote.
Billy repeatedly saying it's not MAME could be the truth, but that doesn't mean the score is valid.Yep, this is my conclusion too. The fact that it's not a genuine DK board is enough to strike it from any arcade high scores list.
It seems we are hours away from a final verdict! Comment 3003 on their forums has left me completely dead Kreygasm
Reference: TG Post #2661 (https://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/176004-Dispute-Jeremy-Young-Arcade-Donkey-Kong-Points-Hammer-Allowed-Player-Billy-L-Mitchell-Score-1-062-800?p=962236&viewfull=1#post962236)Quote from: JaceI specifically asked Carlos how much more time he needs to get through his process, and I told him that we are waiting to include his findings and evaluate them before finalizing a decision. I also told him that we have limited time to wait for him. He understood and had no issue and indicated the desire to be done quickly as well.
He said he will provide TG with a time estimate shortly. I indicated that we have allowed for at least through the weekend for him to finish up his work, but a decision will need to be made very shortly after that no matter what.
There is a potential TG banning soon if anyone is interested.
My Conclusion on the 1.047 & 1.050 game tapes is that they were NOT generated from a Genuine Nintendo Donkey Kong PCB. The signatures which are normally produced by those PCB's are NOT on the recordings.
Repeated testing and viewing of the game on those tapes do not demonstrate the signatures found on recordings coming out of Genuine Nintendo Donkey Kong Arcade boards." End Quote.
We've known all along what it isn't, what we don't know is what it is.
It could be:
1. MAME
2. another emulator
3. a bootleg donkey kong board, which is only loosely based on the original
4. a modified original donkey kong board
Billy repeatedly saying it's not MAME could be the truth, but that doesn't mean the score is valid.
I feel sorry for any lawyer who has Joel as one of their paralegals. My grammar brain just PTFO. His comma placement is SUPOIB! *kisses fingers*
(https://i.imgur.com/WmeaoNH.png)
I can't see how he would be able to state this with such confidence unless he was quite familiar with MAME and/or was only saying what he knew to be true about those tapes.
(snip)
It is understood that there is a lot of anticipation for closure in this matter and I greatly apologize that there is this additional delay. It is entirely schedule related and has nothing to do with anything else.
Please bear with me (us).
Congratulations to Rick Fothergill, who now has the first perfect score on Pac-Man recognized by Twin Galaxies.
https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/pac-man/arcade/points-factory-speed/page/1?ref=fbshare
(http://www.slither-gdi.net/justroy.jpg)
Great job to Jeremy and John (and possibly others in the background?) for being the catalysts to more much-needed change.
i guess this means final closure now then!
About 3 hours before the decision was made i learned that billy is left handed! Based on the fact all arcade cabs are left handed then realisticly if billy were to play right handed he would be a 500k point player at best :P
i guess this means final closure now then!
About 3 hours before the decision was made i learned that billy is left handed! Based on the fact all arcade cabs are left handed then realisticly if billy were to play right handed he would be a 500k point player at best :P
I can assure you definitively that a left-handed player is capable of at least 986K. Kappa
But a joystick with the left hand was totally new when DK hit the shelves.
Wonder if he'll ever follow up on this?
My friends and I produced a podcast episode about all of this, if anyone is interested in listening.
https://soundcloud.com/safespacecast/billy-mitchell-the-king-of-kong-falls (https://soundcloud.com/safespacecast/billy-mitchell-the-king-of-kong-falls)
Billy had a Clause in the movie not to say anything if he did or not cheat.. This is Hollywood folks.. enough said
My friends and I produced a podcast episode about all of this, if anyone is interested in listening.
https://soundcloud.com/safespacecast/billy-mitchell-the-king-of-kong-falls (https://soundcloud.com/safespacecast/billy-mitchell-the-king-of-kong-falls)