Author Topic: VonBlogenstein  (Read 110728 times)

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Offline ChrisP

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Re: VonBlogenstein
« Reply #60 on: July 09, 2013, 03:05:36 pm »
Abdner is the man, but yeah, I'm just saying.

You're right though, if he didn't have the title with his current score, it would be him with a HIGHER score!

And after watching Ben on DK3, I don't think anyone will ever beat you on that game regardless of competition, your scores are psycho.
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Offline gstrain

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Re: VonBlogenstein
« Reply #61 on: July 09, 2013, 05:02:55 pm »
Abdner is the man, but yeah, I'm just saying.

You're right though, if he didn't have the title with his current score, it would be him with a HIGHER score!
You guys realize Ms-Pac scores are just luck for the top players?  They are getting perfect eats, so the only difference in scores is getting lucky with the fruit and getting lucky to get extra boards at the end.  Donkey Kong has a lot of randomness, but with Ms-Pac the final score of the top players is mostly randomness, which saps the incentive to keep trying to improve your score.

I'm also still convinced that a Ms-Pac Kill Screen is significantly harder than a DK Kill Screen.
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: VonBlogenstein
« Reply #62 on: July 09, 2013, 05:25:06 pm »
Actually George, you're right, I picked an exceedingly poor example.  ;D

Still though, if you had enough players putting in enough hours at enough Ms. Pac Man games, you'd eventually get a few who'd run into a neverending banana parade. The top 10 (or 20, or 30, or whatever) would be full of perfect eats with good fruit, and the perception of the game's difficulty would go down, even though it's no easier than it's ever been.
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
Member for 11 Years DK Masters - Rank D DKJR Killscreener IGBY 2016 DKF Team Member IGBY 2015 DKF Team Member IGBY 2014 DKF Team Member Blogger Twitch Streamer DK Killscreener CK Killscreener

Offline homerwannabee

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Re: VonBlogenstein
« Reply #63 on: July 09, 2013, 06:13:56 pm »

And after watching Ben on DK3, I don't think anyone will ever beat you on that game regardless of competition, your scores are psycho.

Thanks, that is probably one of the greatest complements I have ever received.  Being the exception to someone's rule is pretty cool! 8) 

Truth be told, it's talk like this that will eventually bring down my record.  The unbeatable records are always the ones that seem to be beaten i.e. Joust, Missile Command, and Q*bert as examples.

Now if I can keep the talk at "Yeah, your records are beatable, but it's not worth all that effort.", than I will be able to have this record for decades to come until people will erroneously think that my DK3 records are unbeatable since it has been so long. ;D 
"Perception forged in delusion and refined by pain"

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Offline ChrisP

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Re: VonBlogenstein
« Reply #64 on: September 27, 2013, 12:13:38 am »
Speech, speech!

I will, of course, have to blog about this at some point soon. (And it's a good thing I learned my lesson from "Falls Fails!" or else I might have titled it "VonDummpenstein Takes A Huge #2" ;D )
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
Member for 11 Years DK Masters - Rank D DKJR Killscreener IGBY 2016 DKF Team Member IGBY 2015 DKF Team Member IGBY 2014 DKF Team Member Blogger Twitch Streamer DK Killscreener CK Killscreener

Offline VON

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Re: VonBlogenstein
« Reply #65 on: September 27, 2013, 02:19:50 am »
Hahah.  Best blog post title ever Chris! and thank you.  However, I hope this is just the first of many good games to come, and so please allow me to save the speech until I do something truly special.

Offline VON

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Re: VonBlogenstein
« Reply #66 on: October 17, 2013, 02:34:24 am »
If any of you guys is ever feeling particularly masochistic, go ahead and give Donkey Kong speed 2 a try.

You'll need a version of MAME that supports the speed up feature, as using frame advance will produce varying results depending on your processor speed.  Using the speed up option in newer version of MAME should allow everyone to play at the exact same speed, in theory.

Here's a clip of my best: http://www.twitch.tv/dwwnp/c/3097277

I used MAME version 126 or 127.  I can't be exactly sure because I deleted everything related to this miserable DK variant immediately after recording the above game.

Offline VON

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Re: VonBlogenstein
« Reply #67 on: November 11, 2013, 01:30:18 am »
Luck in Donkey Kong

I think "luck" in DK looks something like this:

          [ZERO]-[2]-----[5]-----[8]-[10]

A spectrum of sorts that scales out logarithmically from 5(in this crude example), wherein 5 represents "average luck", 0 represents "shit luck", 10 represents "miraculous luck", and the range between 2 and 8 is meant to stand as “survivable”.

I feel that DK demonstrates behavior in the “survivable” range, between 2 and 8, with greater frequency than it demonstrates behavior in the 0 to 2 or 8 to 10 ranges (the “extreme” ranges), and I chose a logarithmic scale to express this idea.  Also, it's relevant that the “extremes” have a smaller range than the “survivable” range – i.e the variety of ways in which things go “survivable” well, far exceed the variety of ways in which things go either fantastically super or disastrously poor.

Many players, myself included, get bent out of shape rather easily when, for example, a series of barrels won't steer, or a rivet board doesn't “make it easy” on them, when, in fact, the problem board at hand may only be exhibiting type 3 or type 4 behavior on the spectrum of “luck”.  Point being, “average luck” is the best  any player can hope for over the course of an entire game, and while it may seem at times like all you're getting is 2's and 3's, those 7's and 8's might be just a round the corner. 

But there are games when that “luck” just never levels out to 5, or never has a chance to because the first 30 boards were 1's and Jumpman is dead.  There are games pinned at 7 the whole time, only to be botched by the player.  And there are many games cursed for “if only that pie factory hadn't been a 1!”, which had, in actuality, provided greater than 5 “luck” up to that critical point.

The same scale can be applied to “pace”, only the “pace” range is separate from the “survivable” range, with the actual range of  “pace” dependent on the “pace” itself, obviously.  A JRTFBDN game has a “pace” range equal to that of the “survivable” range.  Whereas a 1.2 million game has a “pace” range considerably smaller than the “survivable” range.  As “pace” increases, so do the variety of ways in which boards can be corrupting of the goal, thus, the range of “extremes” increases.  However,  the frequency of  type 5 boards is the same regardless of “pace”.

So, this is all nonsense, of course, because there's no one way to quantify what constitutes a 0 and what constitutes a 10.  Yet, just for fun, I'll throw out a few benchmarks.

Barrel Board
  • Aggressive fireballs shooting straight to the top is shitty enough to warrant a 2.  These situations can be stressful and often deadly.
  • Scoring 17K+, no matter how it's done, is a 10.

Pie Factory
  • Impassable pie factory of ultimate ass gets a 0.
  • Free pass gets a 6 or 7.  After all, an entire game of free passes would be above average.

Elevators
  • Infinite long springs equals 4.  The elevators may never breach the range between 4 and 6.  They're always pretty much the same, and always, always, “survivable”.

Rivets
  • Scoring 8K or higher is 6ish, maybe 7ish.
  • Fireballs preventing access to the top left rivets is type 3 behavior.

Offline mikegmi2

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Re: VonBlogenstein
« Reply #68 on: November 11, 2013, 08:52:42 am »
Enjoyed the write up Ross.  This is something I have been contemplating a lot lately. 

This randomness, or luck factor, is what keeps the game interesting...but also makes you throw your arms up in the air shouting WTF.

It would be hard, maybe impossible, to quantify the luck factor...but I believe this to be the most significant 'stat' out there.  After all, the randomness/luck factor is what allows a player to make it to the end.  Whether you get a game full of free passes, no screwings on rivets...or make it to the end even though you did get screwed...but jumped fireball after fireball, and "got out" of seemingly impassable situations (got lucky)...the game itself dictates whether or not you will make it to the end.

Speaking from personal experience...I have played for a stretch of weeks, where I can't pass L8-L9, due to screwings where I would have either had to forsee fireball movements and avoided paths (used my future-sight powers), jumped fireballs/firefoxes successfully...or had that barrel steer down the broken ladder for me when the fireball that was climbing as my hammer expired eventually ran me down.

On the other side there are games where I have blown it big time, making it to L11 or 12 with all my men, only to make human errors, killing off all my men in the 800-900k range.

The game is night and day.  The degree of difficulty goes from easy to impossible in the blink of an eye.  This is probably the crux of 'competing' in a Donkey Kong 'competition'.  Everyone will experience a completely different DK experience this weekend.  Some will no doubt get games in the 0-2 range, while others will be blessed with games in the 8-9 range.

It's probably impossible, but I think the only way to have as close to a 'fair' competition as we could hope for, would be some sort of modified ROM version that presented each player with the exact same degree of difficulty throughout the game.  The same number of non-steerable barrels L5+, same number of non-Free Pass PFs, same number of rivet screens where the player is forced to 'freestyle', same number of spring stages where you are forced to retreat multiple times in a row, etc.
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hchien

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Re: VonBlogenstein
« Reply #69 on: November 11, 2013, 09:57:02 am »
Luck is definitely a big factor in DK... however, when you see Dean pull Houdini-like escapes time after time do you really think it's all luck?  "If I have all this good fortune, if everything’s rolling my way, if all these balls have bounced in my favor, there is some poor bastard out there who is getting the screws put to him."  If the pie factory always gave free passes and the star pattern always worked, there'd be thousands of killscreeners.  Knowing what to do when you get dealt a bad hand is what separates the good from the better.   Now don't get me wrong, there are times where you get completely screwed over and seemingly die no matter what you do.

When I got my first killscreen, I thought it was the luckiest game ever.  In fact one of my first posts to the old TG forums was about how much luck was necessary to get to the killscreen.  Fast forward 4 1/2 years and I can tell you that I (running boards and assuming an L5 start) can reach the killscreen >50% of the time.  I'm sure the same is true for almost every 1M point player. 

I don't want to understate the luck factor.  That is a big part of the game especially in a live/limited time competition but I would compare it to poker-- obviously there is luck involved, but the same people seem to win/make the final table in the WSOP every year which means there is more to it than luck.  3 of the top 4 players in KO1 and KO2 were the same.  If Jeff Willms played at KO1 it probably would have been 4 out of the top 5.  (That statement will probably not hold up this year as so many players have improved their game, but I think you get my point.)

As you say, luck is what makes this game so interesting and frustrating. 

Offline Xermon54

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Re: VonBlogenstein
« Reply #70 on: November 11, 2013, 10:23:49 am »
You don't need luck when you have swag.

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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: VonBlogenstein
« Reply #71 on: November 11, 2013, 11:19:17 am »
Yea I compare it to poker a lot too...but actually it is pretty rare for anyone that has made the final table, or won the main event, to make it back again the next year...or ever, for that matter.

I don't think Moneymaker has come close since he won it in 2003...starting the poker boom.  Raymer did make it deep once or twice, but hasn't ever made it back to the final table.  Most/all of poker's "top players" rarely go deep in the main event.  Phil Helmuth, Daniel Negreanu, Phil Ivey...etc...they're almost always gone after the first 2-3 days.  There's usually 1 or 2 "stars" that will make it deep each year...but it usually works out in a sensible ratio of stars:regulars.  Many say Dan Harrington has had the most impressive main event career out of all top players...as he did in fact win the main event...and years later make back to back final tables in large fields of players.  Truly impressive.

I guess to be fair, if you look at the 9 final table contestants this year...I believe they are all technically "professional poker players"...which would lean toward an argument that the true pros always make it to the final table...but at the same time, most of the field that have the $10k to enter the main event are in fact "professional poker players"...so odds are the final table will be full of "poker professionals"...regardless of whether they played good or sucked out all tournament to get to the final table.

Most of the WSOP winners as of late have been young twenty somethings.  Ryan Riess, this year's winner, lived a handful of miles from me and used to deal in a charity poker room I've been to a few times.  Joe Cada, the 2009 winner, lives in my city (Shelby Township) just a few miles away I believe.  23 and 21 years old when they won the main event...going up against Johnny Chan, Doyle Brunson, and all the other greats with many more hours and years worth of tournament poker experience.

I don't believe this to be true about Donkey Kong, but I am a believer that, for poker tournaments like the main event...the people that make the final table are carried there by the cards dealt to them.  They aren't there by making better plays than the other players.  If it is deep in a poker tournament, and the flop brings top set against middle set, its all getting in the middle. The cards basically play the players...not the other way around.

There is some of this "cards playing the players" going on within DK.  To what degree, I am not sure.  But it is there. 

If you go back and watch a lot of the big DK games out there, there is no doubt tons of skill and discipline involved...but I think you would be surprised at how fortunate most of those games were as well...if you took a close look at them.  Paying attention to things like "hey if that barrel woulda rolled down on its own right there you woulda been dead", "that firefox ran to the right for a split second, otherwise you were toast", "if Kong dropped a bomb there you were dead", "good thing he didn't throw a wild barrel right there or you were a gonner", "that hammer lasted just long enough to smash that climbing fireball, otherwise it was game over on L19". 

Get a pen and paper, tally them up.  It's possible you might find out many games Mario had 9 lives (or at least 5 or 6), rather than 4.
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hchien

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Re: VonBlogenstein
« Reply #72 on: November 11, 2013, 12:01:41 pm »
My bad, I was under the impression that the same group of players were always making it to the final table.  But I bet there is a disproportionately large # of pro players at the final table.

If you go back and watch a lot of the big DK games out there, there is no doubt tons of skill and discipline involved...but I think you would be surprised at how fortunate most of those games were as well...if you took a close look at them.

You have to keep in mind that the big games are 1 of 100's or 1000's.  Obviously they're going to be lucky games.  They are not the best games to learn competition style/safe play from and they are definitely not representative of average luck.  Sometimes I will risk getting 1/16th (or even 1/4th) if I'm going for a WR... especially early in the game or if I get myself into a situation where a fireball is trolling me.  In a lucky game you could risk it 50 times and never die.

These people aren't really any "luckier" than anyone else.  They've just played out enough games to get that one lucky one.  You can't compare your average luck game with their luckiest game otherwise you'll think you're the bastard who's getting the screws put to them.

You don't need luck when you have swag.

From the only person to have ever gotten 800x5 blue smashes on 1-1, I think you mean "You don't need swag when you have luck."  Kappa

Offline mikegmi2

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Re: VonBlogenstein
« Reply #73 on: November 11, 2013, 12:37:42 pm »

They've just played out enough games to get that one lucky one. 

Agreed.
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: VonBlogenstein
« Reply #74 on: November 11, 2013, 02:22:59 pm »
I like Ross's scheme here a lot.

I agree with Hank. My experience is that as I've become a better player, I've also become a "luckier" player (if you know what I mean...)

And to me, the luck of being in the right physiological/psychological "state" when playing is at least as much of a factor as whatever the game is dishing out.

I consider player state to be luck because a lot of it is out of the player's control, and I have found no way to guarantee or definitively identify what factors put me in (or not in) the zone, and there seem to be few definite correlations. Sometimes I play well while tired. Sometimes I play well while naturally awake, but not when awake from a caffeine rush. I NEVER play well while angry (which is one of very few correlations that I am now pretty much satisfied with), etc.

But again, you can't necessarily control what state you're in when you play, and to me, that's part of the luck.
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
Member for 11 Years DK Masters - Rank D DKJR Killscreener IGBY 2016 DKF Team Member IGBY 2015 DKF Team Member IGBY 2014 DKF Team Member Blogger Twitch Streamer DK Killscreener CK Killscreener