Author Topic: Deciding between Star or Weave?  (Read 4546 times)

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Offline dknetter

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Deciding between Star or Weave?
« on: April 13, 2020, 02:07:55 pm »
So Arron Pitchford posted his first KS in the score submissions thread (congrats!), and mentioned that adding the Weave to his arsenal helped with consistency on rivets. I thought it'd be more obvious from watching, but not sure where the decision points are when choosing to deviate from the Start pattern. How do you decide when to go for a straight Weave vs doing the Star pattern? Tips/advice on making that decision?
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Offline furrykef

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Re: Deciding between Star or Weave?
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2020, 02:57:27 pm »
I'm still a beginner by the standards of this forum (my highest score is 187,100), but I used my "Loop current stage" cheat on the level 5 rivets and practiced the weave over and over again, trying to get 10 successes in a row. I didn't manage it; I think the most I managed was 5. Then I switched to the star and I had a lot more success and did manage to get 10 in a row. So, clearly I'm generally better at the star than the weave.

But I think practicing the weave still improved my game. For one thing, if your star completely fails and all the fireballs are in the middle and on the right when the bottom hammer expires, you've converted to a weave; if you've practiced it well, you should know what to do. And sometimes you have to break your star and go for the Staal, which is a bit like a cross between a star and a weave.

But as for fully integrating the weave into the strategy while doing an actual run... that sounds tricky, and I don't have any real experience with it. Still, we can work with some basic facts and logic... you have to make the choice after grabbing the first rivet, and by that point four fireballs should have spawned. Obviously, you must make your choice depending on where they are. In what situations would we prefer the weave?

I can think of two possibilities:
  • The fireballs are crowding at the top, and we want to get rid of them all as soon as possible.
  • The fireballs are crowding at the bottom and middle, which may make it difficult to grab the bottom hammer later on.

The first of these is a rare situation. I don't think fireballs ever spawn on the top platform, and fireballs will often take the ladder down while Mario is below them. Plus, it might be dangerous to grab the top hammer while there are so many fireballs in that area. Finally, the top might not be so crowded by the time Mario actually gets up there.

The second of these situations seems to be handled better by the star as well, on the logic that you can switch to the Staal pattern if getting the bottom hammer isn't in the cards.

...so I must say I'm a bit baffled myself as to when the weave might be preferable, but maybe you can work something out if you experiment.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 07:47:14 pm by furrykef »
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Offline homerwannabee

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Re: Deciding between Star or Weave?
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2020, 05:15:19 pm »
If the fire balls are on top use the weave. If they're on bottom, and 2nd platform for the most part, use the star pattern.
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Offline Itsmrpitchy

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Re: Deciding between Star or Weave?
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2020, 05:20:46 pm »
Hey thought I should comment and see if I can clear up my approach. Though I am by no means an expert so if a more experienced player would like to correct or elaborate on what I say then please do!

The star pattern is from everything I understand a preferable pattern to use if you can. Due to giving you two hammers and closing the left side. It is simply safer and more consistent when you can get it going.

However, in my opinion after breaking the first peg and completing the climb to the platform of the second you have a very short period of time to make a crucial decision if weave is safer. There is a lot of playing by ear, but if firefoxes are quickly crowding the bottom sections or closing in on the second left hand side rivet then weave! After you have completed the weave you should poke your toe right under the ladder of the top hammer. This enables the firefoxes to travel down one more ladder and gives you a higher chance of getting to the top hammer.

I would like to add that yes the Staal pattern is a nice backup for the star pattern. And sometimes a star pattern will look safe but you will be forced to use the Staal pattern anyway. But I believe that if firefoxes are crowding on the lower sections or near the second left rivet the weave is much safer. The staal pattern allows firefoxes to spread across the stage, and the second left rivet can become hell to get. The weave simply ends up being a safer approach, giving you the whole left side as a safe spot.

Sorry this is so long and I am likely very unqualified. I must also add I am approaching this from the perspective of pure survival, where points are irrelevant and your goal is implementing the most consistent strategies to get a kill screen. Rivets will never to my understanding be a consistent stage where death can only be your fault. But adding the weave can at least in my experience really up your levels of consistency and make the kill screen goal easier to obtain.
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Offline Itsmrpitchy

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Re: Deciding between Star or Weave?
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2020, 05:24:34 pm »
If the fire balls are on top use the weave. If they're on bottom, and 2nd platform for the most part, use the star pattern.

Oh that was the opposite to my approach. Was wondering why you take this angle?

I found that firefoxes being lower meant it was safer to weave and collect the top hammer. If I were to use the star instead then a firefox could sneak into the left side and cut me off from the bottom hammer. 
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Offline homerwannabee

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Re: Deciding between Star or Weave?
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2020, 07:39:19 am »
Because if the firefoxes are on the first two boards you can rack up the points with the bottom hammer. Also, you should be able to clear the top left two rivets pretty easily, and if one chases you up on the left side you can probably grab the top hammer as a last resort.
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Offline Itsmrpitchy

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Re: Deciding between Star or Weave?
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2020, 08:32:00 am »
I think for survival though it would be the opposite right. Points do not matter, more of the concern is a safe grab of hammers.

I believe this is also recommended in the manual of this forum for getting a kill screen.
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Offline Mitch Mitchell

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Re: Deciding between Star or Weave?
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2020, 10:15:55 am »
George is right in my opinion. I use Star and will try to finish it off even if im lightly trapped and it doesnt take too much time like 1 goes up left ladder and im steering him all the way up so i can jump across 2nd rivet down to head down to get the hammer. Of course if 1 comes across under top hammer giving a double trap i go up the ladder and stand beside Kong for the Last Ditch Kong Jump option then head down and jump across as previously stated to hammer. BUT if im unable to get down immedietely or if all this takes too much time i switch to weave and skip bottom hammer as it takes up about 1000 bonus time up and before i know it im out of time to get the top hammer and to even finish the level.

So in summary, if fireballs go up and cause a bad trap i Weave to get the top hammer and hopefully survive the level, if theyre down bottom then Star is the way to go so i can cut their climb up off and trap them to the left side of the screen and im left with just 1-3 to deal with (hopefully) to be able to get the top hammer easier and finish the level.
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Offline NWnike

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Re: Deciding between Star or Weave?
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2020, 12:07:53 pm »
My Jumpman sticks to the star pattern until his last breath... [as Ivan Drago]"If he dies, he dies."
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Offline McBee

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Re: Deciding between Star or Weave?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2021, 04:14:22 am »
My Jumpman sticks to the star pattern until his last breath... [as Ivan Drago]"If he dies, he dies."

This has been my strategy but I cannot get beyond my PB of 325K so was thinking maybe something else would be a bit safer. My reading has led me to believe that I am wrong.  I guess the only thing to do is get better at finishing the board when things go sideways.

Which brings me to my real question:

If you successfully get the star to the point where you have exhausted the lower hammer, but there are still 3+ firefoxes on the right side of the completed rivets and are higher than you, what is the strategy to get to the higher hammer without the damn things killing you?
« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 04:20:37 am by McBee »
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Offline dknetter

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Re: Deciding between Star or Weave?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2021, 05:20:09 pm »
My Jumpman sticks to the star pattern until his last breath... [as Ivan Drago]"If he dies, he dies."

This has been my strategy but I cannot get beyond my PB of 325K so was thinking maybe something else would be a bit safer. My reading has led me to believe that I am wrong.  I guess the only thing to do is get better at finishing the board when things go sideways.

Which brings me to my real question:

If you successfully get the star to the point where you have exhausted the lower hammer, but there are still 3+ firefoxes on the right side of the completed rivets and are higher than you, what is the strategy to get to the higher hammer without the damn things killing you?

I ended up following NWnike's approach...just stick with star. I haven't played much since the KS, but thinking back I believe you have to develop some patience and skill in pausing/backing up on the pattern to still make it work. That can be right near the start on the bottom left, but also more frequently for the top left. If you haven't wasted much time before the 1st hammer, try and wait to time that one to get a couple smashes if you can.

To your question about the 3+ remaining after the 1st hammer, I actually think that occurs fairly often. You may already know this, but be aggressive up the middle ladder to position for a quick up and hammer grab when they are coming from the right above you, as they only go down the ladder when coming from the left. While using the 1st hammer, skip the rivet on the right and be looking to go up that middle ladder if there are 3+ left and it looks like they might leave that area open for you (assuming also that you don't see a chance to get a smash to the right with that 1st hammer). If not, get the rivet on the right and go down to get the bottom right rivet immediately to save time later by clearing that one, then circle back up to await a clear path to the 2nd hammer. But even if you do get the right rivet while using the hammer, be looking to abort going down for that bottom right corner rivet if there are 3+ left and it suddenly looks like you'll have an opening for the other hammer. Other things to be looking for after you've gotten at least the rivet on the right with the 1st hammer - if one more more comes down that right side to the 1st hammer level, position yourself slightly down a ladder to try and lure them to go further down (I'm still not actually clear if that increases their chance of going lower). If they do go down further, it obviously gives you one less to deal with for a 2nd hammer grab. Also, be looking for the chance to run up the right ladders and just clear the rivets without that 2nd hammer...like if 1+ comes down the middle, but even sometimes when they don't and are caught too far left. I felt like once I started paying attention, that tactic really helped save the level once in a while.
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Offline McBee

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Re: Deciding between Star or Weave?
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2021, 07:59:07 am »
My Jumpman sticks to the star pattern until his last breath... [as Ivan Drago]"If he dies, he dies."

This has been my strategy but I cannot get beyond my PB of 325K so was thinking maybe something else would be a bit safer. My reading has led me to believe that I am wrong.  I guess the only thing to do is get better at finishing the board when things go sideways.

Which brings me to my real question:

If you successfully get the star to the point where you have exhausted the lower hammer, but there are still 3+ firefoxes on the right side of the completed rivets and are higher than you, what is the strategy to get to the higher hammer without the damn things killing you?

I ended up following NWnike's approach...just stick with star. I haven't played much since the KS, but thinking back I believe you have to develop some patience and skill in pausing/backing up on the pattern to still make it work. That can be right near the start on the bottom left, but also more frequently for the top left. If you haven't wasted much time before the 1st hammer, try and wait to time that one to get a couple smashes if you can.

To your question about the 3+ remaining after the 1st hammer, I actually think that occurs fairly often. You may already know this, but be aggressive up the middle ladder to position for a quick up and hammer grab when they are coming from the right above you, as they only go down the ladder when coming from the left. While using the 1st hammer, skip the rivet on the right and be looking to go up that middle ladder if there are 3+ left and it looks like they might leave that area open for you (assuming also that you don't see a chance to get a smash to the right with that 1st hammer). If not, get the rivet on the right and go down to get the bottom right rivet immediately to save time later by clearing that one, then circle back up to await a clear path to the 2nd hammer. But even if you do get the right rivet while using the hammer, be looking to abort going down for that bottom right corner rivet if there are 3+ left and it suddenly looks like you'll have an opening for the other hammer. Other things to be looking for after you've gotten at least the rivet on the right with the 1st hammer - if one more more comes down that right side to the 1st hammer level, position yourself slightly down a ladder to try and lure them to go further down (I'm still not actually clear if that increases their chance of going lower). If they do go down further, it obviously gives you one less to deal with for a 2nd hammer grab. Also, be looking for the chance to run up the right ladders and just clear the rivets without that 2nd hammer...like if 1+ comes down the middle, but even sometimes when they don't and are caught too far left. I felt like once I started paying attention, that tactic really helped save the level once in a while.

Thanks for that.  I have been giving it more time before grabbing the lower hammer and I have been trying to "steer" the firefoxes down ladders once I have it (although I still think that is a bunch of bunk) and I seem to have fewer deaths on the rivet stages.
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