Author Topic: Pole Position and how to get better  (Read 46798 times)

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Offline andrewg

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #135 on: October 03, 2021, 07:34:53 am »
The most reasonable option is that 67,310 did actually happen. And I say this for a few reasons:

- If 67,260 happened earlier with a photo it's not unreasonable an oversight was made on the final Pole Position results.

- Why would Mike Klug let his top competitor have an "unbeatable" score and permanently cement him in 2nd place if it didn't actually happen?

- There are 3 witnesses of the 67,310 (but yes, I understand it was over 30 years ago so could be inaccurate memories/timeline).

- 67,310 appeared in 1990, but it's certainly not a typo... which means either there was proof for it later or somebody messed with the score intentionally.

- 67,310 appears to be a reasonably possible score. It's not an extremely wild claim. Why not just list something like 67,360 instead if it was a fake score anyway? If whoever got caught altering it... later, they could claim it was a typo of 67,260 for example.


Anyway I think 67,310 DID happen, but yes it is possible that someone on the USNVGT (or EGM) altered the score later.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 07:48:17 am by andrewg »
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Offline yamnitz

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #136 on: October 04, 2021, 05:55:56 am »
Thanks for commenting!  I had never seen the 1986 vgmt manual before, so the threshhold score even in 1986 was 67,260.   

I think that the best score, highest score, whatever, achieved on a game should be a fact, with proof or providence.  All the options you mentioned are totally reasonable but there are just so many possible options, and people have to decide to 'believe or think' a score is real.  There really should be a higher bar for a World Record.  I don't even think the bar is very high for 67,310 to be considered fact, even hand written scribbles from '84 showing it would probably be enough.  However with all the places 67,260 actually is mentioned throughout the 80's and 310 is literally never mentioned makes it hard for me to 'believe' 
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Offline andrewg

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #137 on: October 04, 2021, 08:15:27 am »
Twin Galaxies has always bothered me for this reason. I've been on the scene for a long time now and it was always frustrating to see impossible scores/times on the leaderboards. The whole *glitches banned* aspect of TG also really annoyed me. Especially when you've got some of the most iconic games of all time and people are clearly doing unintended tactics (leeching DK by jumping next to him on the rivets is clearly a glitch, Pac-Man has "booeys" which allow you to go straight through ghosts, and countless other techniques in other titles).

It bothered me so much that I was the one who prompted the challenge system on TG to challenge scores. If an "official scoreboard" wants to call itself official there really should be proof for world records. The 80s scores have always been interesting because you never know if they happened or not. I feel like the leaderboard should have been split long ago between "legacy scores" and modern given the vast amount of errors on TG. It's unfair for modern era players to compete against impossible scores. It's silly.


I stopped caring about Twin Galaxies being "official" many years ago and simply use it as a reference point. A world record is the best  score with proof... photo or video, no exception. It simply goes without saying. How can you have an "official" leaderboard with countless and I mean countless errors on it? So many of the 80s scores are simply copied from unreliable sources even. Imagine if the 3 million score in DK was still considered the world record? Without the existence of a kill screen it still might have been considered "fact."


Now that said, I'd call you the tied world record holder. There is a photo of a 67,260 and that's proof enough given the history of it. 67,310 is simply an unsubstantiated claim and while I think it happened, it doesn't matter.

Twin Galaxies barely has any reputation left as it is and most people these days expect a certain level of proof (no vid, no did). There were definitely great scores done in the 80s, but if they can't be substantiated they don't belong on a scoreboard where people still compete. Grandfather the old scores *the ones that can't be proven at all* and call them "legacy world records" and be done with it. Keep the old scores with at least some level of proof. 67,310 is too questionable.

I've seen this series of events unfold so many times where people are likely just competing against scores that are either impossible or never happened and it's sad to see these people cheated out of legitimate world records on a supposedly "official" scoreboard.


How hard is it to take a photo of a score in the 80s? Something that someone worked on for months... years even? Like c'mon. If you care about it, then it's on you to substantiate it. Grab a Polaroid camera or deal with people never believing you, your choice. I also laugh at anyone who submitted to TG but refused to share their performance (prior to Jace), because the irony there is that sure you'll hold the "world record" forever but no one will believe you. It's great.

I mean, luckily we have a photo of the 67,260! That's great to see honestly. But, you gotta wonder why not the 67,310?
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 08:35:00 am by andrewg »
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Offline gstrain

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #138 on: October 04, 2021, 11:15:23 am »
Wayne C, who ran the arcade where the 67,310 is claimed to have been done and who states he saw the score, has been posting recently defending the score on a thread over at CAGDC: http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,5904.0.html

The thread is old, but has some recent posts from Wayne if you scroll down in it.

I did notice that in one post Wayne claims "Les' high score was definitely made on July 1. 1984" but then in a later post says "When was Mike's high score attained?  That was 37 years ago so I don't know for sure".

Wayne also seems to think that if you pass cars on the outside (which slows you down quickly if you go off road) that should be grounds for disqualification, which in the words of someone wiser then me, makes me wonder if he's every played the game.

That said, while it's odd that no references to the 67,310 score seem to have occurred around when it happened, I don't think there's enough evidence to remove it as a "legacy" score at TG.
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Offline yamnitz

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #139 on: October 04, 2021, 01:35:49 pm »
Wayne C, who ran the arcade where the 67,310 is claimed to have been done and who states he saw the score, has been posting recently defending the score on a thread over at CAGDC: http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,5904.0.html

The thread is old, but has some recent posts from Wayne if you scroll down in it.

I did notice that in one post Wayne claims "Les' high score was definitely made on July 1. 1984" but then in a later post says "When was Mike's high score attained?  That was 37 years ago so I don't know for sure".

Wayne also seems to think that if you pass cars on the outside (which slows you down quickly if you go off road) that should be grounds for disqualification, which in the words of someone wiser then me, makes me wonder if he's every played the game.

That said, while it's odd that no references to the 67,310 score seem to have occurred around when it happened, I don't think there's enough evidence to remove it as a "legacy" score at TG.

wow, that escalated quickly lol!  Cat went from I totally cheated in capital letters to I support Dan's score in 0.2 seconds!  HA! 

To be clear I can't even start a dispute if I wanted to, I don't have enough magic TG points.  I have been offered to have one started for me but haven't moved on it. 

Appreciate the heads up, I've seen that forum before, but you can't even register for it anymore.  Goes to show that if you even just question the status quo you better have your head on a swivel! 
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Offline andrewg

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #140 on: October 04, 2021, 02:29:03 pm »
That said, while it's odd that no references to the 67,310 score seem to have occurred around when it happened, I don't think there's enough evidence to remove it as a "legacy" score at TG.

I don't think anyone is actually trying to remove it, but in the case of Twin Galaxies in general I wish they would grandfather (or something similar) the old scores that have little to no proof.

I don't feel as though Les' score should be removed. I tend to think it did happen, but it's hard to say. I don't think there's enough evidence to say it didn't happen though. TG tends to only remove scores that are impossible or have solid evidence against them.


I just think there should be a distinction between scores with proof and scores without definitive proof. I mean, I know that they DO differentiate them now the the TGSAP or whatever it's called... having links to the new scores which is a huge step in the right direction. However, I wish something more were done about this sort of issue.

For example, a good idea would just be to classify all the old scores with the assumption that ANYTHING was allowed, because it really was the wild west back in the day. Did multiple people play for a marathon score? Were multiple credits used? How do we know the settings were what they are claimed? Literally none of this can be validated or proved. I recall Paperboy's score being ridiculous for example unless they used a different setting (which 99.99% they did use the more favorable settings), yet TG won't change these rulesets that were literally added after the scores were already made.



It's like if someone got 3,333,360 in Pac-Man and then TG said "oh yeah, this ruleset is 3 lives." This is literally what has happened with many arcade titles.

Anyway, I've always wanted to fix TG and I've made good suggestions to make it fair and reasonable for everyone, but I don't think TG will ever be fixed. However, the addition of an *Basically Anything Goes* category in the case of 80s scores is super reasonable and should be implemented.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 02:41:27 pm by andrewg »
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Offline andrewg

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #141 on: October 04, 2021, 04:48:14 pm »
Anyhow, the situation with Pole Position is a bit unfortunate. BUT! 67,310 should be possible at least so there's that! Hopefully you keep going with it. :)
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Offline yamnitz

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #142 on: October 04, 2021, 05:24:29 pm »
Anyhow, the situation with Pole Position is a bit unfortunate. BUT! 67,310 should be possible at least so there's that! Hopefully you keep going with it. :)

Can't stop now lol!  What's funny is in all of Wayne's ramblings, he actually gave the most information ever given about the style of play Mike and Les did.  (might have to thank him for that someday...) I have started to assume that brushing the sides, other than slowing you down, actually pushes the cars a bit further away from you.  Weather it's because you slowed down or it's the programming, but the fact that he goes crazy about them staying on the road could be a tell. (That would explain why I've gotten a bunch of 213 times but only 139 or 140 cars, I may be brushing the sides too much)  I've run some races not on youtube where the cars seem to stay grouped longer, (meaning there is a better chance to catch that last group before the finish line. The last group is where car 139, 140, 141.. 142 are)  and funny enough I do stay off the sides more in those races.  I've gotten pretty darn good at this game and tweaking my playing style shouldn't be an issue, so I guess I'll see if hard skitches on turn 1 instead of brushing the inside makes any difference in cars.  I can run about the same times doing either, it's just become habit to brush because it seems like you're cutting more of the corner.  Back to the lab and I'll report back! 
« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 05:26:00 pm by yamnitz »
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Offline andrewg

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #143 on: October 04, 2021, 07:19:11 pm »
I really wanna try my hand at this as well, but I've been looking to make sure I have an accurate version of the game before I start trying. I doubt I'll get anything close to even 66k for a while (if at all). I feel like you kinda need the steering wheel, but I'm just gonna play on some of the rereleases with controller and see how it goes. I'm very unfamiliar with how to get the precise turning. The way the track moves with the car is very deceptive!

I'm actually considering buying a cabinet! I'm not sure if it will happen, but if it does you can be sure you'll see some action from me. :) I also really like to try and solve games and this one seems like a big puzzle with the extra 10s, cars, and varying patterns. Hopefully staying on the road results in even more consistent scores for you.

I'd be interested in knowing if you have gameplay prior to your double 10 video on youtube. I just find it fascinating. Mike Klug mentioned in another post that he had scored an extra 10 in the qualifier but that it disappeared in the main race or something along those lines. He mentioned that maybe the game rounds... like it's 10004 and then rounds to 10000, but maybe there's some lucky 10005 that you got. I find it crazy given that you seem to be the only one to ever keep the extra 10 on the qualifier given what Mike was saying about it.

Possibly it sounds like MAYBE he got the extra 10 in the qualifier once or twice, but never the double? I'm not sure. I just stumbled onto a small post about it while searching for the 67,310 from the 80s.

« Last Edit: October 04, 2021, 07:21:50 pm by andrewg »
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Offline Kibbey93

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #144 on: October 04, 2021, 09:25:22 pm »
I really wanna try my hand at this as well, but I've been looking to make sure I have an accurate version of the game before I start trying. I doubt I'll get anything close to even 66k for a while (if at all). I feel like you kinda need the steering wheel, but I'm just gonna play on some of the rereleases with controller and see how it goes. I'm very unfamiliar with how to get the precise turning. The way the track moves with the car is very deceptive!

I've found mouse to be quite comfortable to play this on MAME. The degree of analog control really helps (near limitless range of motion, compared to a joysticks limited left to right joystick range).
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Offline yamnitz

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #145 on: October 05, 2021, 11:04:03 am »
I really wanna try my hand at this as well, but I've been looking to make sure I have an accurate version of the game before I start trying. I doubt I'll get anything close to even 66k for a while (if at all). I feel like you kinda need the steering wheel, but I'm just gonna play on some of the rereleases with controller and see how it goes. I'm very unfamiliar with how to get the precise turning. The way the track moves with the car is very deceptive!

I'm actually considering buying a cabinet! I'm not sure if it will happen, but if it does you can be sure you'll see some action from me. :) I also really like to try and solve games and this one seems like a big puzzle with the extra 10s, cars, and varying patterns. Hopefully staying on the road results in even more consistent scores for you.

I'd be interested in knowing if you have gameplay prior to your double 10 video on youtube. I just find it fascinating. Mike Klug mentioned in another post that he had scored an extra 10 in the qualifier but that it disappeared in the main race or something along those lines. He mentioned that maybe the game rounds... like it's 10004 and then rounds to 10000, but maybe there's some lucky 10005 that you got. I find it crazy given that you seem to be the only one to ever keep the extra 10 on the qualifier given what Mike was saying about it.

Possibly it sounds like MAYBE he got the extra 10 in the qualifier once or twice, but never the double? I'm not sure. I just stumbled onto a small post about it while searching for the 67,310 from the 80s.

Hope you're able to find a cabinet!  It def. as much a puzzle game as a racing game in my opinion and it's different every time.  As far as the extra 10.  In pole position 2 it happens all the time.  Getting the double 10 also happens way more often. In Pole 2 the settings are for 5 laps. I think the more laps has something to do with it.  In Pole 1 I only get the 10 on qualifying maybe 1 in 30 races.  And every other time than that once, you don't get the 10 on the main race.  But 99% of the time I don't get it in qualifying, I get it in the main race.  Not sure at all why it happens but I believe it has to do with how you drive, where you are on the track, somehow it makes the game think you drove a further distance than the distance normally driven over 4 laps.  Might have to do with rounding, or 'bad atari math' in the very first post of this thread.   I've got races on my youtube channel going back 2 years when I was just getting started, a 66k, 66.5, and so on.  https://www.youtube.com/c/DanielYamnitz/videos
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Offline colecomeister

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #146 on: October 06, 2021, 10:55:29 am »
I don't feel as though Les' score should be removed. I tend to think it did happen, but it's hard to say. I don't think there's enough evidence to say it didn't happen though. TG tends to only remove scores that are impossible or have solid evidence against them.

We would only know for sure through an actual dispute review process. What is beyond debate is that Guinness, which was the publication to carry the annual VGMT results, credited Les with a score of 67,260 from the 1984 VGMT, and printed this score in the 1985, 1986, and 1987 Guinness record books, after which Guinness stopped carrying video game scores. Les' score was subsequently cited as 67,260 in the Amusement Players Association International Scoreboard "Top Score" newsletter, which is basically the rebranded TGIS after Steve Harris took it over. From there, it appeared several times over the rest of the 80s in different magazines. Then in February 1990, Les' name is attached for the first and only time to a score of 67,310 before Walter released the TG record book in 1998. Someone might think "oh, maybe Les got the score after the VGMT," but he has conveyed through Mike several times that he immediately retired from active competition following the 1984 VGMT, so that explanation is a dead end. Certainly if we were to take a double-pan scale and place all the publications that cite 67,260 on one side, and the single publication that cites 67,310 on the other, it's not even close.

That said, I would love to see yamnitz pull off a 310, it would be an incredible event. I am really rooting for you, Dan.
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Offline andrewg

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #147 on: October 06, 2021, 10:20:10 pm »
Again the question just becomes... who was the one who changed the score and why? It's not a text error so either he did get it at some point or someone tampered with the score.
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Offline yamnitz

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #148 on: October 13, 2021, 09:37:06 pm »
Again the question just becomes... who was the one who changed the score and why? It's not a text error so either he did get it at some point or someone tampered with the score.

The USVGNT wasn't exactly filled with honest blokes lol.  Guinness maintained the score of 67,260 all through the 80's for years and years.  If Wayne from video paradise is so upset about something, he should be upset that he either delivered the wrong score, or he didn't apply due diligence to see the right score was submitted with all the rules in place.   It is a fact that literally every single rule was NOT followed.  1. record the time. 2. record the cars passed. 3. Photo required.  The only thing that can be presumed to have happened is that a score got submitted.  Which was 67,260.  and printed in Guinness, along with every other "CORRECT" score from the 1984 VGMT.(or are other scores wrong too?)   You do have to follow a process to get a world record. 

Could I just say I did it with a few 'somebody's' who swear their honest. No.  I have to follow the process which is now a full video of gameplay, board, dips, cabinet, etc.   I followed the process.  btw, the process back in 1984 was a LOT easier lol.  And they still couldn't do it right.  The score of 67.310 is smoke with LITERALLY no process.  If Wayne says it happened then he was either the worst ref of all time. By being incompetent with the score submission, and following ZERO rules to back up the score, And then not noticing he was wrong for 6 years...   Or he is just confused and doesn't remember.. Or, is he trying to protect his boys from San Jose.  Who played the game in his arcade, then his garage. On his machine. The same machine that was played on in the VGMT..  Les, Wayne and Mike.  All connected on a personal and professional level, with Wayne as the ref..  that's not a process.  That's collusion. 

If anyone has access to that dead forum PLEASE copy paste this for Wayne.  I've tried to register years ago and no new registers are allowed..  hmmm, wonder why..    https://www.classicarcadegaming.com/
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Offline colecomeister

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Re: Pole Position and how to get better
« Reply #149 on: October 14, 2021, 02:02:47 pm »
Again the question just becomes... who was the one who changed the score and why? It's not a text error so either he did get it at some point or someone tampered with the score.

That's an interesting question. I tried to follow up on this question with some staff members from EGM, but in one case the person indicated they left the magazine before this score appeared, and in another the person couldn't recall, and since the source materials for recording the scores were long gone, there was no way to trace back how the entry appeared in the 1990 issue of EGM as 67,310 even though it appeared as 67,260 in previous issues. One could simply chalk it up to a dictation error given the all of the previous published examples that cited 260, but because the principals today are asserting that it was 310 all along, but somehow was incorrectly recorded - and somehow corrected - years later is an awkward situation to say the least. I should add that in addition to the aforementioned publications, the tournament organizers of the VGMT itself recorded 67,260 as the "threshold score" to beat for getting your name into Guinness based on the results of the 1984 VGMT.

https://web.archive.org/web/20140123195127/http://mysite.verizon.net:80/hattg/pics/videogame/1986_VGM_TOGM.pdf
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