Donkey Kong Forum
General Donkey Kong Discussion => The Kong Off => Topic started by: ChrisP on June 12, 2013, 12:37:44 am
-
Jourdan, Cat, John, Eric, and I are currently hashing through the official KO3 announcement.
I just wanted to ask you guys if there are any questions that you have at this point about how things will be run, that way I can pass the questions on to them.
Things I have already asked:
1. The big one: The main lineup players will indeed be the TG Top 12, but what exactly counts for Top 12? Just the arcade list, or the union of the arcade and MAME lists? My fear is that they're going to just go with arcade for the sake of simplicity, since Dean, Jeff, and Vincent are all top 12 on the arcade list now, but this would leave a lot of (very notable) MAME-only players out. I'm thinking Ben, Robbie, Phil, and a bunch of others who don't have machines and can only qualify on MAME.
2. Will D2K, Junior, and DK3 cabs be on hand for those of us who wish to put up scores on those games, or will all available Nintendo cabs be converted to DK?
3. Will all scores for the weekend, including the Friday wildcard live-qualify scores, be eligible for TG verification if the player wishes to get onto the TG DK list?
What am I forgetting? You tell me.
-
How many Donkey Kong machines are there going to be? I know it's presumed 20, but hey it could be more.
-
If a MAME player is in top 12 overall and isn't invited to the Kong Off 3, I'll call BS on that. MAME player has even proven to be as good/if not better than arcade player, even if they don't play on arcade.
And there will be 12 dedicated machine, and Jourdan said there would be at least 10 wild card machines.
-
If a MAME player is in top 12 overall and isn't invited to the Kong Off 3, I'll call BS on that. MAME player has even proven to be as good/if not better than arcade player, even if they don't play on arcade.
I can think of one obvious exception to the BS rule. The guy's name escapes me at the moment, however. ;)
-
Keep in mind even if it is MAME and Arcade, it has to be TG verified. So, look at the TG MAME list
http://scoreboard.twingalaxies.com/operator.php?gameid=6648&platformid=46&variationid=7721 (http://scoreboard.twingalaxies.com/operator.php?gameid=6648&platformid=46&variationid=7721)
There isn't any one the list that overlaps into the top 12 arcade that isn't arleady in the top 12 arcade. Don't confuse TG's list with the list here. They probably want submission to their board.
However last year , since the qualification was 1 million, I do think there was a condition where you could live stream your game and also be in:
From Kongoff.com in reference to KO2:
To qualify for a “Dedicated Machine†you must have a verified score of 1 million points or better. If you wish to qualify you must either live stream your game or have it verified by an Aurcade or Twin Galaxies referee.
Either way, getting clarification on the platform to be in the TOP12 will be necessary.
-
What are the cutoff dates for a score to be considered for the KO3? A submitted date would be more helpful than a verified date.
-
Sorry, should have mentioned that: according to the document, the top 12 cutoff is October 25th.
To quote from the document:
"The top 12 Twin Galaxies ranked players, as of 10/25/13 will have their own dedicated machine for gameplay beginning on Saturday. "
So, good question Jeff.
-
If a MAME player is in top 12 overall and isn't invited to the Kong Off 3, I'll call BS on that. MAME player has even proven to be as good/if not better than arcade player, even if they don't play on arcade.
And there will be 12 dedicated machine, and Jourdan said there would be at least 10 wild card machines.
amen
-
George: to answer your question, the document says at least 20, but up to 22. They pretty much have to draw a line there for space reasons. The footprint of the event can only be so big.
-
Well, for anybody who hasn't heard yet, we now have word straight from Richie (by way of Ken, tonight in Allen's stream).
Ken was hanging out with Richie and George Riley at California Extreme and George told Richie that the players would not be happy about a top 12 that did not include MAME.
Richie said, basically: "it's my contest, I'm doin it the way I want. Get on an arcade machine if you want a score."
So there you have it! Arcade-only, and you gotta get verified.
Make of this what you will. I have a hundred thoughts about it, but none of them matter. I'm just kinda shrugging and accepting. C'est la vie!
-
However, he also said: Robbie is almost certainly in, due to the Funspot live score.
Phil will be good for a machine if he can put up a decent score on a cab, whatever that means.
So there's apparently a little bit of wiggling going on here, some very spongy "rules" for qualifying, which is kinda jacked for the people at the bottom of the top 12, but again, it's Richie's gig! Whattaya do?
To sum up: you have to be in the top 12, or not, and get the score on an arcade machine. Or not.
-
So does TG get egg on its face if a MAME player comes and wins the KO3 via wildcard machine? Obviously not me, but would that 'upset Richie's master plan for what he wanted to do?' C'mon up and coming MAME players... maybe it's time for a 'coup'?
-
Well, for anybody who hasn't heard yet, we now have word straight from Richie (by way of Ken, tonight in Allen's stream).
.....
So there you have it! Arcade-only, and you gotta get verified.
Ethan has been saying this for weeks. I'm not sure why it's a surprise to anyone.
-
If you want a dedicated arcade cabinet at the Kong Off 3, you have to put up a score on an arcade cabinet. I don't know, it sounds logical to me.
Maybe we can have a few mame computers set up at the back of the 1up for the hi scoring mame players.:)
The top three mame players have scores on arcade as well anyway. Dean, Jeff and Robbie.
-
it is what it is. you all know how i feel about this...but thats not important. ultimately its richies tournament and hes running a business. im going to get my name on one of those fucking machines. whatever it takes, baby 8)
-
it is what it is. you all know how i feel about this...but thats not important. ultimately its richies tournament and hes running a business. im going to get my name on one of those fucking machines. whatever it takes, baby 8)
That's the spirit!
As for there being wiggle room and maybe this and maybe that... That is MY opinion, not anything official. OFFICIALY it is the top 12 arcade scores.
I personally, and I'm sure Richie agrees, would LOVE to see a wildcard machine win KO3. Remember that NOONE is being excluded, everyone is welcome and everyone can play. To get the perk of having a dedicated arcade machine you have to put up the score on a dedicated machine.
Something this awesome should not have this kind of negative taint to it. I would be out finding a machine and getting my spot secured, November is just around the corner!
-Ken
-
Aside from what I feel about this I think its pretty sloppy to have left this question hanging for so long
The top three mame players have scores on arcade as well anyway. Dean, Jeff and Robbie.
Dean and Jeff only have those scores because they were invited to the Kong Off on the basis of their MAME scores.
-
I would like to see TG, or the KO3 facebook page, give some mid point announcements of the current standings. Something like:
"Hey Guys, step up you game, only 60 days left to KO3 and here are the current standings, we're going into the final stretch, etc..."
If it's 100% official that the TG arcade scoreboard is the entry, then you could say just look at the TG scoreboard and there's your answer, but the most up to date scoreboard has me at 10th still, with Mike G, and Robbie still having scores to be approved. I would like to see the duplicate Steve Wiltshire's corrected.
http://www.twingalaxies.com/scoreboard/3852/2/22/ (http://www.twingalaxies.com/scoreboard/3852/2/22/)
-
Was Robbie able to tear apart the DK machine at Funspot? I don't know if he did or not but just recording it at Funspot doesn't mean it will get approved does it? If so then can I go to the place 45 minutes from me and just record on the machine there? (This is a serious question because I called and asked and they will NOT let me open the machine).
Sva / Dave yes I don't understand why its July and still nothing "official" on this. Both Dean and Jeff W only have arcade scores because of KO2 otherwise they would still be just WC players if what is going around is the final state of affairs. Would they have even showed up then? As good as they are the no restart rule it's possible they wouldn't have even made the cut for Sunday and they went 1 and 2.
Dan
I would like to see TG, or the KO3 facebook page, give some mid point announcements of the current standings. Something like:
"Hey Guys, step up you game, only 60 days left to KO3 and here are the current standings, we're going into the final stretch, etc..."
If it's 100% official that the TG arcade scoreboard is the entry, then you could say just look at the TG scoreboard and there's your answer, but the most up to date scoreboard has me at 10th still, with Mike G, and Robbie still having scores to be approved. I would like to see the duplicate Steve Wiltshire's corrected.
http://www.twingalaxies.com/scoreboard/3852/2/22/ (http://www.twingalaxies.com/scoreboard/3852/2/22/)
-
Tearing apart the Funspot machine was not possible for me when I recorded. It was later in the evening and I could not find anyone that would be able to help me out and obviously I couldnt just do it myself. I showed the score and that I was at Funspot. I stated my name, date, location before I dropped the token into the slot. I know opening the machine is almost impossible, because they almost didnt do it for Hank when he played there. They only did cause it was an acception since it was for the world record. I have footage of Funspot to prove I was there and I even have a credible witness. I hope it is enough to get accepted, but I just did what I've always done when I've broken a record at Funspot.
-
That Robbie Lakeman, causing trouble again! ;D
When putting up a score on a machine in an arcade, I would say there are a few places that are good enough in my book, meaning I trust the scores enough to consider them official for earning a dedicated machine at the Kong Off. Funspot is one of them. And before you say who cares what your opinion is, remember that I am a TG ref, and my word does carry some weight.
...
Yes, Dean and Jeff put up their arcade scores at the Kong Off. Should those scores not count? Of course they should, I'm sure no one is arguing that. So the point of bringing up that technicality is to say that the rules have changed and that's not fair. Sometimes in baseball people complain about the umpire, and say this or that was a bad call. Everyone is entitled to their opinion of course. But to participate in any sport or competition, you must respect the ref's discretion. Sometimes you may not like a call, but the referee's word is final and needs to be respected. That's the way organized competition goes.
-
Dan, if you went through the steps that Robbie did and put up a monster score at your local arcade with the recording to prove it, you can be sure it would not be dismissed out of hand, but would be given serious consideration. It helps to do it at a Funspot or Richie's or the Kencade of course, but it would certainly cause a stir. It certainly wouldn't hurt your chances of securing a dedicated machine at the Kong Off 3.
-
Ethan has been saying this for weeks. I'm not sure why it's a surprise to anyone.
Ethan has been saying that in the shoutbox, Twitch chats, etc., but not everybody sees those, and a lot of people don't "hang out" as much as others so they wouldn't know. I figured it should be public in a thread somewhere.
I disagree with Richie's decision, but I support it, and the bottom line is that he has the right to do the Kong Off the way he wants.
-
I'm curious, who are these out-of-the-loop players that you're referring to? I thought all you Cult of Kong devotees are all connected by telepathic mind waves.
-
I'm curious, who are these out-of-the-loop players that you're referring to? I thought all you Cult of Kong devotees are all connected by telepathic mind waves.
I'm probably one of them. I miss a lot due to my daily afternoon nap. :)
-
I'll try and head over one weekend to Flipper McCoys if I can't get an arcade machine and try and put up a DK score while I record with my Camcorder. I don't think I'm Top 12 material anyway so my questions have nothing to do with me and is more of the situation.
-
There are varying levels of involvement.
It runs the gamut from Dean (who just kinda comes and goes and plays and doesn't really pay attention to all the gossip and whatnot), to Mitch/Ethan/me/JC/Mark et al, which is like the ladies sewing circle. ;D
-
George the scores at the KO2 should absolutely count. The point Svar and others are making that they wouldn't have BEEN able to play on those dedicated machines at KO2 because all they had were MAME scores at that time so they wouldn't HAVE those scores now. Vincent is also another player who would have been out because he had nothing but MAME scores as well IIRC.
I'm not trying to stir the pot or cause any grief but if t is going to be Top 12 TG ARCADE ONLY Submitted scores then that is fine. If you want to say "get an arcade machine and if you get a recording of that you will get you a dedicated machine at KO3 even if that isn't all the steps for an 'official' submission" then that is also fine.
Regardless I think everyone just wants them to say whatever it is an make it "Official" and I guess a lot of people can't understand why this hasn't been done yet?
They really need to say you have until xxx date to get the score as well (like say what Oct 1st or Oct 15th?) People have to pay a lot of money to travel and if I was sitting it 11th or 12th place I would definitely be concerned about what is happening and when will I KNOW if i'm in or do I have to play on Friday?
-
So you're out of the loop for about three hours a day, Stella? :) Then you haven't missed anything. Maybe half a conversation in the chat box, at most.
And even though he doesn't post much, I'd bet Dean misses nothing important. He has DK connections.
-
" George the scores at the KO2 should absolutely count. The point Svar and others are making that they wouldn't have BEEN able to play on those dedicated machines at KO2 because all they had were MAME scores at that time so they wouldn't HAVE those scores now. Vincent is also another player who would have been out because he had nothing but MAME scores as well IIRC."
But I said exactly that. The point they are making is that the rules have changed and it isn't fair. I to that I said whether or not you think it is fair, the referee's rules must be respected. That is the nature of organized competition.
As for official announcements and cut off dates, I don't know. I would just focus on kicking Kong's ass from here to Halloween if I was planning on competing.
-
So you're out of the loop for about three hours a day, Stella? :) Then you haven't missed anything. Maybe half a conversation in the chat box, at most.
No, I'm out of the loop 95% of the time, mostly by choice:
- I'm not on Facebook, and have no intention of registering
- I check the shoutbox infrequently and have the "boing" sound muted, as I find it distracting
- I watch most Twitch TV streams in full screen mode, and never see much of the chat
- The aforementioned quality nap time
EDIT #1: I wonder what % of my posts have absolutely nothing to do with the topic under which they appear. Obviously, this is one of them.
EDIT #2: It was nice to meet you at Funspot, George. I was acting as Vincent's adult supervision for much of the afternoon. :)
-
George the scores at the KO2 should absolutely count. The point Svar and others are making that they wouldn't have BEEN able to play on those dedicated machines at KO2 because all they had were MAME scores at that time so they wouldn't HAVE those scores now. Vincent is also another player who would have been out because he had nothing but MAME scores as well IIRC.
.
My feeling is that's one of the reasons *why* Richie switched to arcade-only: because he can now. It would have been an embarrassment to the first two KOs if Dean wasn't there, so Richie had to allow the concession for big MAME scores, but now that Dean (and Vincent, and Jeff) are on the arcade board, Richie doesn't need MAME anymore. Ross, Robbie, and Phil are great, but they're not absolute must-haves the way Dean was.
Richie is now the co-owner of TG and he has an investment in getting the best players and the best scores onto TG's DK arcade scoreboard. The Kong Off is a great way to incentivize that.
So, it's a different era, with different circumstances. One isn't within his rights to change a contest's rules once it has begun, but it's acceptable to do so *between* contests. Right now counts as "between contests." Richie can change the deal if he wants to. He ought to tell people in no uncertain terms what the deal IS (and ASAP), but it's his deal.
They really need to say you have until xxx date to get the score as well (like say what Oct 1st or Oct 15th?) People have to pay a lot of money to travel and if I was sitting it 11th or 12th place I would definitely be concerned about what is happening and when will I KNOW if i'm in or do I have to play on Friday?
I mentioned the cutoff date earlier in the thread. It's October 25th. BIG BIG BIG!
-
The entry criteria was announced a few months ago. I don't remember where but it was top 12 TG scores (presumably arcade only) on Oct 25. Every year the issue of MAME scores comes up. Richie is very anti MAME, but for the first 2 Kong Offs there were exceptions to the arcade only scores (Vincent and Dean for KO1 and Jeff and Dean for KO2). I think by KO2 Dean had proven himself enough on arcade that it was impossible to exclude him even though he didn't have an official 1M on arcade. I remember Richie asked Dean to come out to NJ before KO1 to prove his skills on arcade and it was very apparent that his skills translated. As of now, this issue only affects 2 people (Phil and Robbie). I have a feeling those 2 will be in the top 12 arcade come Nov. So here's to hoping that it's not an issue at all.
BTW Robbie, getting Funspot to open their cabinet was very difficult as Gary Vincent was out of town at the time. I was on the phone with Dave Nelson with the camera rolling and he told me who to get in touch with... even then it was not easy.
-
Frankly, having to open the Funspot cab is absurd, since the chain of custody on the board, controls, etc. begins and ends with the arcade, and that particular machine is (very) well known to be legit.
-
Frankly, having to open the Funspot cab is absurd, since the chain of custody on the board, controls, etc. begins and ends with the arcade, and that particular machine is (very) well known to be legit.
Actually there are many fun spot scores in the database that are going to have to be removed due to improper settings. I agree the DK is pretty well known but rules is rules.
-
Cool I missed the Oct 25th part!
-
What Hank said. You are wrong to think it has anything to do with embarrassment, Chris. It is impossible to embarrass Richie, as far as I can tell. You are over-thinking this.
-
I forgot to add that this year is the first year that the cutoff is set by rank and not by score. For KO1 you needed a LIVE 900K. For KO2 you needed a CREDIBLE 1M. This is important because with a fixed (limited) number of spots there is a higher potential for conflict. In theory, 20 people could have qualified for the first 2 KO's. This year is different. If a MAME player (who is deemed qualified) is included in lieu of the 12th TG arcade score that person would probably get upset. IMO, with a fixed # of spots, the inclusion criteria should be more objective and applied strictly. The problem in this case is not everyone has equal access to a cabinet. I don't think there is a perfect solution.
-
It is impossible to embarrass Richie, as far as I can tell. You are over-thinking this.
Overthinking is my thang.
Also: what Hank said.
-
I thought all we had to do was call or write a letter to submit a score? No video needed.
-
I would like to see TG, or the KO3 facebook page, give some mid point announcements of the current standings. Something like:
"Hey Guys, step up you game, only 60 days left to KO3 and here are the current standings, we're going into the final stretch, etc..."
If it's 100% official that the TG arcade scoreboard is the entry, then you could say just look at the TG scoreboard and there's your answer, but the most up to date scoreboard has me at 10th still, with Mike G, and Robbie still having scores to be approved. I would like to see the duplicate Steve Wiltshire's corrected.
http://www.twingalaxies.com/scoreboard/3852/2/22/ (http://www.twingalaxies.com/scoreboard/3852/2/22/)
Just to keep everyone up to date, I spoke with Stephen Boyer and my 1,023,600 score has been verified as of last week.
Stephen said to be paitent for the time being, as he doesn't have the access yet to change the scoreboard himself...but once he does, it will be updated on a regular basis.
-
IMO, with a fixed # of spots, the inclusion criteria should be more objective and applied strictly.
The problem in this case is not everyone has equal access to a cabinet.
There's a lot that lies within the word cabinet...
Richie is the definition of an arcade cabinet collector/hobbyist. He takes the time to find old machines, transport them, strip them down, sand them, repaint them, rewire them, replace electrical components, install a new (old) monitor, buy new buttons, fix the control stick...etc. There's a bit of extra time/effort that goes into being able to play a game on a real arcade cabinet...sometimes a LOT of extra effort/time. Not to mention the cost of purchasing these machines...nor the fact that you can spend months sometimes trying to find one...and still come up empty handed...which as Hank pointed out, is also kinda part of the problem for people that can't locate a cabinet to play on.
For MAME, you download a rom in half a second, for free, and you're up and playing on any home computer. Quite the shortcut...
And I don't mean to be Policeman Paul or Carl the Cop or anything, but unless you actually own an arcade cabinet...isn't playing DK on MAME technically illegal? I don't see anyone from Nintendo joining forces with Lars Ulrich to come after you anytime soon, though...
The KO is an arcade competition, and MAME emulates arcade games. If Twin Galaxies goes through all the trouble of getting 20 DK machines up and running...what would be the point of all that time/effort/cost if they allowed MAME scores? (during KO1 and KO2 they actually needed MAME scores to fill up a top 10-12, but that isn't the case anymore)
What if Twin Galaxies said, this is too hard, forget the cabinets, let's just get a bunch of computers and setup 20 MAME stations. What would the arcade people do? A few would probably be pretty bad at using a keyboard...and how would that make Twin Galaxies look?
"Uh, so this is the Kong Off, the Donkey Kong arcade game competition...uhh, where are all the arcade games then...and what's with all the laptops?"
Does the answer lie somewhere in between? Should they setup a MAME station for the MAME players that breach the top 12...and let them play on their own MAME computer all day? I can already see what someone on an arcade machine would say about that..."hey that's unfair because this is timed and they can restart much faster than I can...", "hey using a keyboard is easier because you can change directions faster...", "hey they get to sit in a comfy computer chair while I have to stand up, or sit on this hard-as-a-rock wooden stool...".
Or, should all the points above be thrown out because it's not about arcade machines at all...this is simply about skill at the arcade version of the game Donkey Kong. There are good arguments on both sides.
I don't know what the fair/right answer is...but I guess this is all moot because seems the decision has already been made. Interesting points of discussion, though.
-
Richie is a tradionalist when it comes to this, playing on the original game in it's most pure form to put up a score. I think the reason he gave in and bent the rules for KO1 and KO2 is you couldn't fill a field of 10/12 that met the requirements, so he allowed the big MAME players. Now, you can fill a top 12 will all 1M+ arcade players. IT's not neccesarily the 'right' thing to do, but if MAME ends up getting in, the MAME player should have to play on an arcade machine and it is up to them to prepare for it. And Jeff shown that is a hard thing to do.
-
To tell the truth, even if I got in the top 12 overall, I am not that good on a cab. I have a lot of practice, maybe even a year worth of practice get as good on cab as I am on MAME. Besides, I will not be playing on a cab until I get one million on MAME.
-
In my opinion, MAME players shall be judged at the same level as arcade gamers in term of score. MAME players have not only proven to be as good as arcade players, but to be even better on the arcade platform (even if they don't even play at all on arcade).
MAME is an incredibly huge part of the DK history since KoK, and it shall remain.
-
Vincent, I couldn't agree more. If the point of the competition is to find the best live performer in Donkey Kong then excluding MAME won't necessarily reflect the true top 12, even if the competition is only on the arcade platform. Maybe it won't affect a lot of players this year but if this is how it'll be now then I don't think it'll be likely that MAME scores will ever be included and in the coming years there will probably be a lot more of huge MAME scores.
I personally was hoping to get on the top 12 and I am still trying to up my score, on MAME this time. I have never even seen an original DK cab with my own eyes and if I want to play on one I'll either have to buy one or travel a huge distance to have the opportunity, neither of which is really feasible for me... I hope I can still make it to the KO3
-
Well MAME players went 1 and 2 at KO2. Is this an "arcade" competition or a "Donkey Kong" competition? What if they decided it has to be LIVE performances at a sanction TG arcade? Then all of the cab owners would probably be pretty torqued about it don't cha think?
MAME players have proven themselves over and over. Excluding this competition for the people who are lucky enough to live near Ken or Richie or can afford to buy a machine just seems to stifle something that was actually getting a lot of goodness from the DK community.
I have to try and find a DK now as the one at Flippers was borked when I checked it out. Hopefully they fix it soon but for now I'm pretty much dead in the water unless I can somehow buy one. :<
-
It may be important to remember that the gameplay advantages of playing on MAME compared to Arcade only really present themselves on the very highest level of point-pressing. I think the psychological advantages of playing on MAME are much greater (such as brought about by being able to sit comfortably in a nice chair or being able to restart more quickly).
-
Ultimately Richie could have a rule that all scores must be achieved on a red cabinet while wearing a dress, because it's his competition. To paraphrase him, if you don't like how his Kong Off works, start your own.
In my view, I'm not all that worried about the integrity or purity of the tournament because I feel that it's going to be lacking in that regard no matter what you do. There is just too much to think about and consider, and no way to accommodate all of the considerations.
-
I don't think Richie allowed mame players in to fill out the field of contenders. He didn't think mame players should be in it, but he allowed it because the general consensus of the players he knows personally said that he should give certain mame players a chance to prove themselves, and it was based on the trust he has in their opinions that he allowed it. I don't see a general consensus about including mame players anymore, so I think it is safe to say that neither does he. So he's just going back to how he originally intended it. He didn't say I have this many cabinets, and need to fill them with competitors, he worked extra hard to add cabinets. He could have made less work for himself by capping it at just 10 contenders both times. But he did it for the players, and look at the thanks he gets for it. Instead of seeing thanks for the Kong Off Richie, he sees a bunch of grief and disgruntled attitudes. Are you really surprised that he's not jumping over a barrel for everyone, with the reaction he gets?
:)
-
So he's just going back to how he originally intended it. He didn't say I have this many cabinets, and need to fill them with competitors, he worked extra hard to add cabinets. He could have made less work for himself by capping it at just 10 contenders both times. But he did it for the players, and look at the thanks he gets for it. Instead of seeing thanks for the Kong Off Richie, he sees a bunch of grief and disgruntled attitudes. Are you really surprised that he's not jumping over a barrel for everyone, with the reaction he gets?
:)
I wouldn't call it a bunch of grief and disgruntled attitudes.. I know it's Richie's competition but displaying concerns and thoughts about it should, in my opinion, not be taken as a negative thing. I think that the fact that the Kong Off exists is absolutely brilliant and how passionately people feel about it reflects a lot on its success.
-
Ah its just people expressing themselves because we are passionate about this George :)
-
Me too, Dan. :)
Plus Richie is a good friend of mine.
-
I don't think Richie allowed mame players in to fill out the field of contenders. He didn't think mame players should be in it, but he allowed it because the general consensus of the players he knows personally said that he should give certain mame players a chance to prove themselves, and it was based on the trust he has in their opinions that he allowed it. I don't see a general consensus about including mame players anymore, so I think it is safe to say that neither does he. So he's just going back to how he originally intended it. He didn't say I have this many cabinets, and need to fill them with competitors, he worked extra hard to add cabinets. He could have made less work for himself by capping it at just 10 contenders both times. But he did it for the players, and look at the thanks he gets for it. Instead of seeing thanks for the Kong Off Richie, he sees a bunch of grief and disgruntled attitudes. Are you really surprised that he's not jumping over a barrel for everyone, with the reaction he gets?
:)
Richie doesn't really have to "[jump] over a barrel" to accept MAME scores, though. There's a list for US set 1 on TG (and though I'd say that using DKF's top scores list is preferable, either is fine by me) and aggregating the two wouldn't be difficult. Yes, he's gone out of his way to get cabinets together. Not to be rude, but so what? That really has no bearing on the discussion or his decision to exclude MAME players. To be frank, the thanks for the Kong Off are going to be all the dosh he's going to be rolling in after it's over; dosh which won't be diminished by deciding to include MAME scores, might I add. There are very few justifications for excluding MAME players, and I'm sure that nearly everyone in the community would say that is the wrong decision. Jeff, Dean, Robbie, Vince, and I'm sure several others very much proved the transferability of MAME skill to arcade skill. While I still think that any MAME players should of course be forced to play on a cabinet, I don't think they should be forced not to play.
-
I sort of wanted to seperate this from my last lengthy post but I think there should be more cabinets at the kong off. Richie likes to dream big and put his dreams into action. In a dream scenario, there would be a cabinet for everyone who would want to compete. And a couple extra for the kids. Sounds like more money to me. Right? Does that get you excited? I think it should! Dream bigger! Where would more cabinets come from? I have absolutley no idea. I know Richie had to pull in a lot of favors to get the "few" he had last time. But hey I'm trying to dream big!
Anyways, back to the topic at hand, questions about the kong off. I guess I'm going to kinda of change the subject from the MAME discussion here. But I am confused about something.
I have no idea what a wildcard rematch is or how it relates to anything. Just the term wildcard rematch confused me. Is is something completely seperate that some people did? Does it have any effect on the kong off qualifiers?
Also, my main question is that I am still looking for the exact dates of the next streaming qualifier event. I inquired in another thread but I did not see any answer. I am not sure what the difficulty is in setting a firm date but I have to say it is not helpfull to not have an exact date to aim for!
the dk wildcard rematch was an online tournament(twitch.tv) held by eric tessler and john salter that initially involved the wild card players from the kong off 2. wcr#2 allowed all players that hadnt yet had a verified 1mil+ point score on twin galaxies. wcr#3 was on june 23rd and was open to all competitors. wcr#4(i think they changed the name) will be sometime near the end of august. im not exactly sure how placing in the event correlates with getting on a wild card machine at ko3 though
-
The thing is, without all of that hard work there wouldn't be a wonderful magical DK event in the first place. So it has bearing on any discussion related to the Kong Off. It has everything to do with everything. It comes off as rude and ungrateful to pretend otherwise.
Also like I said, Richie is my friend. And how we do it where I come from, is we defend our friends fiercely. So when you say so what to all of Richie's hard work, I can't get past it, it's all I see.
-
The thing is, without all of that hard work there wouldn't be a wonderful magical DK event in the first place. So it has bearing on any discussion related to the Kong Off. It has everything to do with everything. It comes off as rude and ungrateful to pretend otherwise.
Also like I said, Richie is my friend. And how we do it where I come from, is we defend our friends fiercely. So when you say so what to all of Richie's hard work, I can't get past it, it's all I see.
Yes, it has to do with the Kong Off itself, however it does not have to do with MAME players being excluded. It would require no extra work on his part to include MAME players, and there doesn't seem to be a reason for their exclusion. It's perfectly reasonable to be upset about such a rash decision, and his deeds unrelated to the decision have no bearing on it.
-
Christian, not everyone agrees with you that mame players should be included.
-
I think you have a small group of DK players which you share opinions with that has become insular and acts like an echo chamber. You are mistaken if you think the wider community is in line with these opinions. And it is not acceptable for you to continue to make light of all the hard work Richie has done for everything Donkey Kong. It deserves much more respect than you are giving it.
-
Perhaps we all ought to discuss this on the Arcade Culture show coming up?
It will be scintillating!
-
Christian, not everyone agrees with you that mame players should be included.
Clearly. However, I've yet to hear any sound reason behind that disagreement. Why do you suspect that the proponents of Richie's decision think that MAME Donkey Kong players should be excluded in a Donkey Kong tournament? If it's intended to be a tournament pitting the best Donkey Kong players against each other, I'm sure most would agree that this is not the best way to go about it.
I would ask these questions to those individuals: Why do those proponents of Richie's decision think that MAME players shouldn't be considered to be among the best Donkey Kong players? If those proponents think that they should be considered to be among the best Donkey Kong players, then why do they think that the Kong Off should not be a tournament pitting the best Donkey Kong players against each other, and instead only some of the best? If they not only think that those players should be considered to be among the best Donkey Kong players but also that the Kong Off should be a tournament pitting the best Donkey Kong players against each other, why do they think MAME scores should be excluded?
I don't really see any good answer to any of these questions. If one of these proponents has an answer to my questions or has an alternative reason for believing what he or she does, please post and inform me.
-
I think you have a small group of DK players which you share opinions with that has become insular and acts like an echo chamber. You are mistaken if you think the wider community is in line with these opinions. And it is not acceptable for you to continue to make light of all the hard work Richie has done for everything Donkey Kong. It deserves much more respect than you are giving it.
hm im not sure why you would think the wider dk community if all for disallowing mame players to participate when that is just not the case. that being said, i no longer have an issue with the decision. it is what it is...
-
There are many reasons why not to allow mame in this very thread. Go back and look, you'll find many. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't mean they aren't there.
To earn the chance to play on a dedicated arcade machine at the kong off, you must put up a score on a dedicated arcade machine. What could be simpler.
-
I have to disagree with you. It is clearly the opinion of the wider dk community that a score on a real arcade game is what will get you on a dedicated machine in the kong off. It is the case. The streaming echo chamber is not the wider DK community.
-
This is one of those cases where a small but vocal minority has convinced themselves that they are the majority because all they hear are their own opinions. But the majority is silent, and disagrees with you.
Mame is a good tool for practicing.
-
This is one of those cases where a small but vocal minority has convinced themselves that they are the majority because all they hear are their own opinions. But the majority is silent, and disagrees with you.
Mame is a good tool for practicing.
well thats unfortunate. i wouldve liked to hear everyones input on the issue. whatever the case, im going to pull out of this discussion
-
It's the old school mentality. It's not just about getting a high score, it's about doing it live in front of everyone at an arcade, at a big event. Deliver the goods when the pressure is on. Is this really so hard to understand? dkshawn I'm not addressing you here, I think you know where I'm coming from, even if you don't agree. This is for the die hard hold outs who refuse to grasp the concept, and catch the spirit of excitement that the arcade game brings. You streamers are just getting half the magic, running on half the power without grasping the concept I am trying to get across to you. Mame is mame, but the arcade game in the arcade is just not the same. Do it in an arcade game and you're legit. Why have all the top mame players crossed over to arcade if what I'm saying isn't true? Because they know you haven't earned your Fred unless you do it on arcade. I mean your cred.
Do you see what I mean?
-
Go ask Allen Staal. Show him my last post and see if he disagrees with me. I guarantee he will say yer buddy fk mate lol qbert george is right.
-
Arcade gamers don't say gee, I want to get the top mame score to really prove myself. Ah, I don't know why I bother. You guys have already made up your minds. Funny thing is, when you get to the Kong Off, you will see that all these opinions don't matter when you are living it. The energy will just knock you right out of your preconceptions. You'll shake Walter Day's hand and you'll be like mame what?
Alright I'm done ranting. You can have your forum back, Fred.
-
Perhaps we all ought to discuss this on the Arcade Culture show coming up?
It will be scintillating!
Be careful what you wish for. You may end up getting a mame vs arcade discussion moderated by Freeko.
-
Christian, if you don't see a sound reason for excluding high MAME scores from the list, remember that there doesn't have to be a sound reason. I think that's the point that you and some others are missing. It's Richie's personal, aesthetic preference. He wants the 12 guys at the top of the arcade scoreboard. That's his right, regardless of how "sound" it is or isn't.
Aside from the personal reasons, it also makes sense from a business standpoint to promote action on the flagship scoreboard - the DK arcade list - maintained by the company that he now co-owns.
I could argue against the logic and fairness of his stance until my keyboard breaks, but those arguments simply don't matter. It's not a logical decision, it's a personal one. And if you put energy into logical arguments against personal/emotional standpoints on things, you're just gonna drive yourself crazy.
I totally agree with you that it's not entirely fair, for a whole bunch of players, for a whole bunch of reasons, but it doesn't have to be fair.
If it's intended to be a tournament pitting the best Donkey Kong players against each other, I'm sure most would agree that this is not the best way to go about it... why do they think that the Kong Off should not be a tournament pitting the best Donkey Kong players against each other, and instead only some of the best?
I agree, it's not the best way to go about it!
But using a one-time personal best as the sole player selection criteria isn't the best way either.
Simple example: If Player A gets five 840-860K kill screens in twenty attempts, and Player B gets a single 880K kill screen on a total creampuff of a run when his previous PB was 650K, and never killscreens again in the next 30 attempts, is Player B a better player than A??? Of course not, but under Kong Off logic, B is the better player because his PB is higher! The system is already flawed. It doesn't value or test for consistency at all, which is actually very important in a tournament.
Another example: Ross isn't anywhere close to the top 12 in terms of personal best (on our list he's 21st), but anybody who knows their shit knows that he's a complete master of the game and has to be considered one of the top 5. FFS, much of what the top players are doing to get these high scores was invented by him! The scoreboard (at least as it stands) wouldn't tell you that though.
You can't really get a true, analytically-sound "who are truly the 12 best?" without doing a whole lot of serious poindextering. Nobody's gonna do that, and if someone did, few would understand the methodology (and then they'd argue about THAT). People are having a hard enough time understanding the scheme for the wildcard qualifier tournaments, let alone arcane player analyses. There's merit in sticking with "Arcade Top 12", warts and all, if for no other reason that it's simple, straightforward, and understandable to anyone.
The no-MAME decision sits okay with me because I don't think that the Kong Off is really a tournament of "the 12 best Donkey Kong players" anymore anyway. KO2 was the last year where that could be reasonably said, but it can't this year, or ever again. There are just too many high-level players now that are capable of putting up a competitive score for the weekend. The difference between 12th and 13th is going to be matter of inches, from now until the end of time. Space is tight and it's only going to get tighter. Counting #12 among "one of the best" but not #13 because #13's score is 2,700 points lower is just silly.
So, I think of the main lineup at the Kong Off as exactly what it is: a contest between the people who have the 12 highest scores on TG's DK arcade leaderboard, and who can make it to Denver. No more, no less! It will naturally include most of the best players, but not necessarily all.
Besides, if somebody did something truly remarkable on MAME, something that knocked it out of the park and really separated that player from the rest of the pack, like a 1.1, Richie would absolutely take that into consideration. In fact, according to Ken, Richie said that he would. But it'd have to be THAT remarkable. You'd basically have to be another Dean.
But if you're, say, 1,030 on MAME and the next score down is 1,020 arcade and the arcade guy ends up getting in because Richie has a bias, well, tough beans. There has to be some way of sifting through the pile-up at the bottom of the top 12, and "arcade takes precedence" is as good a way as any.
-
It's the old school mentality. It's not just about getting a high score, it's about doing it live in front of everyone at an arcade, at a big event. Deliver the goods when the pressure is on. Is this really so hard to understand?
Arcade gamers don't say gee, I want to get the top mame score to really prove myself. Ah, I don't know why I bother. You guys have already made up your minds. Funny thing is, when you get to the Kong Off, you will see that all these opinions don't matter when you are living it. The energy will just knock you right out of your preconceptions. You'll shake Walter Day's hand and you'll be like mame what?
Alright I'm done ranting. You can have your forum back, Fred.
You're saying taking MAME scores for the Kong Off would be like qualifying for the Boston Marathon by running on a treadmill?
-
looks like the wildcard divison will have its own prizes, and scores also count for the overall standings...does that mean a WC player can take both 1st place prizes?
if so thats not a half bad compromise for 1m+ mame players excluded from the top 12, if they really can cut it on arcade controls they should be a shoe in for their own cab on sunday...who wants to sit on a stool for 2 full days anyway!
8)
-
It's the same in any tournament...if you don't like the rules set forth by the organizer, don't compete. There would appear to be many willing participants so I don't think the organizers feel it would be an issue and as long as those featured in film such as Billy, Steve, Fred and Hank are there, the revenue for all involved will be solid which keeps this event alive in the long run.
-
Besides, if somebody did something truly remarkable on MAME, something that knocked it out of the park and really separated that player from the rest of the pack, like a 1.1, Richie would absolutely take that into consideration. In fact, according to Ken, Richie said that he would. But it'd have to be THAT remarkable. You'd basically have to be another Dean.
Well, I do think Robbie's 1.07M given that it beat Billy and Steve's should be considered that then, but he's already did something on arcade that might hold up.
But if you're, say, 1,030 on MAME and the next score down is 1,020 arcade and the arcade guy ends up getting in because Richie has a bias, well, tough beans. There has to be some way of sifting through the pile-up at the bottom of the top 12, and "arcade takes precedence" is as good a way as any.
And you can always say MAME adds a certain % to your game that technically a 1,020M arcade can be greater than a 1,030 MAME, but that's very subjective. The stuff I've been dealing with on the control panel issues, button response/spring back of Mario, has really been killing my game lately that I actually have to change the way I play to accomodate for these occurances. When I switch back to a keyboard, hardly none of that happens. (Occasionally I'll see Dean get a no response button jump) but not near the amount I get on arcade.
-
I heard a rumor the other day that a couple of high-level players are considering skipping the Kong Off 3 due to the 'MAME decision'. Does anyone know if there is any substance to this rumor?
-
I heard a rumor the other day that a couple of high-level players are considering skipping the Kong Off 3 due to the 'MAME decision'. Does anyone know if there is any substance to this rumor?
That was probably me. ;D It was a last ditch effort of mine the day after finding out about this to try to get Richie to allow MAME players in. I made the statement while he was in conference with the audience about the new direction of Twin Galaxies. I was using the worst case scenario of what could happen. Meaning the MAME players rebel, and start their own tournament of sorts while the Kong Off III is happening.
Also to make in an update on what happened at the CA Extreme. At the pizza party I basically did a Roy Schildt, and got in his face, and started yelling at him about not allowing MAME players in the top 12. He kind of originally blew me off when I expressed my objections to him not having MAME players, and because of that I realized he wasn't taking this MAME thing seriously.
I decided though then, and there to get in his face just to show how serious this MAME situation was. I came perilously close to starting a fight, and when I realized I had gotten out of hand, I apologized to him for acting like a spaz.
-
Well, they will allow MAME players if they are in top 12. If there's a good MAME players in the top 12 and that he isn't participating because his score was done on MAME, then I'll talk to Jourdan/Richie, and if they still don't allow him to be on top 12, I'll still come to KO3, but I don't guarantee I'll be in a good mood!
You just cannot not allow MAME players to participate if they are in top 12. Period.
-
Well, we don't need rumors made up to fight for MAME players. Everyone needs to sit back a second and look at the list and who this applies to.
There's only ONE person in the top 20 that this affects. ONE. And that is Phil Tudose. I personally think he should be given special consideration given his accomplishments. Everyone else is not MAME players, they are already DK arcade qualified, Dean, Jeff and Robbie.
So this whole "MAME players aren't allowed" as if it's half the field is just not true, it is only affecting one person at the moment.
-
Well, we don't need rumors made up to fight for MAME players. Everyone needs to sit back a second and look at the list and who this applies to.
There's only ONE person in the top 20 that this affects. ONE. And that is Phil Tudose. I personally think he should be given special consideration given his accomplishments. Everyone else is not MAME players, they are already DK arcade qualified, Dean, Jeff and Robbie.
So this whole "MAME players aren't allowed" as if it's half the field is just not true, it is only affecting one person at the moment.
Well after looking at this thread it's now abundantly clear that no one will put up a fight for MAME players. Which is not the worst thing since as you say only one person is affected, and that person is wanting to do it on an arcade machine anyways.
Before this announcement though, let's be honest, some people were rattling cages pretending a whole big storm was about to be unleashed. It's obvious that was just much to do about nothing, and no real big storm will happen.
-
So George, do you feel a bit silly now for defending the inclusion of mame players that haven't put up a big arcade score?
"You just cannot not allow MAME players to participate if they are in top 12. Period."
You know I love you, but I still disagree with you, Vincent. :)
So no one got inspired by my John Belushi Animal House inspirational pep talk last night? Oh well. When you get to the Kong Off 3, you'll see what I was talking about.
And yes, I feel that mame is like running on a treadmill. It isn't just about the rom and the score. There is no substitute for the real thing. Chris p likes to make it seem like aesthetics and emotional considerations are somehow lesser than logic and reason, but that's just foolish. Putting up a score on an arcade cabinet shows you have gone beyond, made an effort and that you really really want it.
You can play guitar all day in your bedroom, but when you get serious you have to go outside your comfort zone, find a band, book gigs, and carry your big heavy guitar amp and a set of drums. You can play mame all day in your rec room, but when you get serious you have to get out of your comfort zone, find an arcade and or buy a cabinet.
Let's keep this discussion going. now that you've got me started, I can go for days like this, like a marathon. I think if we're going to all be honest about it, the arcade argument will win the debate over mame every time. I still haven't seen anyone answer why it is that top mame players always put up an arcade score to show they are the real deal, but arcade players don't feel the need to play mame. Why do you think that is, if it isn't for the reasons I've been saying?
I think what happened is arcade only side of the argument felt bad and didn't want feelings to get hurt, so we were holding back. But it just got so silly that now the cold hard truth must be said.
-
The marathon analogy is a pretty good one.
You must travel to and run at a certified marathon course to get an official time (under 3 hours 5 min for males 18-34), and qualify for the Boston Marathon.
But, running is running...26.2 miles is 26.2 miles, why not allow people to do it on a treadmill? Are there any differences?
-
Make no mistake about it. MAME is the future, and not original Arcade cabs. The MAME players did prove themselves last year. The top 2 scores were from MAME players. By going arcade only they took a step backwards. I will always believe that.
In the future, be it 10, 20, 50, 100, or even 500 years from now MAME will finally win out. The original boards are getting older, and eventually most of them will finally break down. When that happens the only alternative is MAME or Arcade Cabs with MAME.
As far as feeling silly. I guess I feel silly thinking I represented a larger portion of this current community. I guess who I was really representing was those in the future. 50 years from now when people ask why no one stood up against this practice of Arcade only, they can say well there was one person who did. I see the future, and realize that MAME will eventually get it's day in the sun. When people look back at this time period they will think of it as an archaic way of thinking.
-
I still haven't seen anyone answer why it is that top mame players always put up an arcade score to show they are the real deal, but arcade players don't feel the need to play mame. Why do you think that is, if it isn't for the reasons I've been saying?
which top mame players put up arcade scores to show they are the real deal? if anyone felt the need to its probably because lots of arcade people take a snooty view of mame and if a mame player wanted to be part of the kong off he had no choice...
also im sure lots of mame players would love to be arcade players too, but its not always practical, if someone has not managed to put up an arcade score it does not necessarily mean they have just not bothered to make the effort. some players lives and circumstances mean they can not be part of the arcade culture scene the way you can, but they still love to play games and compete...
8)
-
I have said this before, George: in the future we will be able to "print" 3d objects. The technology is in its infancy already. Circuit boards and power supplies, insides and outsides of the machines will all be replicated perfectly. This will be the substitute for the classics when they all break down. A perfectly replicated arcade cabinet, not the emulation that we have today.
Beyond that, holographic technology will become so advanced that you will play an arcade game on a holodeck that will look and even feel exactly like the real thing.
So there will be no need for a future hero that stood up for mame.
-
I still haven't seen anyone answer why it is that top mame players always put up an arcade score to show they are the real deal, but arcade players don't feel the need to play mame. Why do you think that is, if it isn't for the reasons I've been saying?
which top mame players put up arcade scores to show they are the real deal? if anyone felt the need to its probably because lots of arcade people take a snooty view of mame and if a mame player wanted to be part of the kong off he had no choice...
also im sure lots of mame players would love to be arcade players too, but its not always practical, if someone has not managed to put up an arcade score it does not necessarily mean they have just not bothered to make the effort. some players lives and circumstances mean they can not be part of the arcade culture scene the way you can, but they still love to play games and compete...
8)
You call it a snooty view because you're on the Internet right now. When you are face to face with people it is called dealing with your social group, and it is as important as anything else. Sure, social pressures help shape the field. Without the social pressures there wouldn't be a reason to compete at all. You have to take the good with the bad, they can't be separated, except in theory.
And you are making an awfully big assumption that my life and circumstances are what make it possible for me to be a part of the arcade culture scene the way I am. They actually were not at all conducive to participation in it, but I made it happen, by the force of will. If you want something bad enough, you do it.
-
aaanyway...
like George says, nobody is reeeally kicking up a fuss about it, except himself maybe!, just people sharing their opinion on the forum, so theres really no call to start inciting shit is there?
8)
-
After watching King of Kong I travelled to Funspot. I needed to see it for myself, I didn't even know Richie's existed at the time nor did I know that people still played classic games. I went to Funspot even before I downloaded MAME. Dwayne told me he sold some stuff for travel fees to get to Funspot for the tourney this year. When you want to compete badly enough......
-
I say we bring back the Donkey Kong death match, like they used to do it in ancient Sumeria. >:(
;D
-
im down! but i want to use a rock instead of a stick... :P
8)
-
I had a bajillion-word post typed up to respond to the last batch of comments in this thread...but even I didn't care after I read it. ;D
Basically, any arcade vs. MAME argument is a waste of time. Play what you want, as often as you can, as best you can. If you can't, then play what you can, when you can, as best you can. Stop giving a shit about what format other people choose to use.
And how would a 3D-printed arcade cab be any different from a MAME cab? Neither would employ original hardware.
-
I'm not really scared about original hardware, there are parts for everything still around from the 50's (and there are people improving original design and reproing parts still), it's the technical expertise to fix/restore that I'm concerned about.
I needed a Midway MCR generation board fixed so I sent it to the consensus MCR guy on KLOV. When he stops, that's when I get concerned, not about the hardware itself, but the people who care enough to continue to repair it. Most board repair is beyond my skillset at least.
In a way, I think when you grow up during the Golden Age of arcades, it's not just simply the desire to set a score on an arcade machine, it's a time warp back to your childhood. People will always seek to get their youthful memories back.
-
I still haven't seen anyone answer why it is that top mame players always put up an arcade score to show they are the real deal, but arcade players don't feel the need to play mame. Why do you think that is, if it isn't for the reasons I've been saying?
Perhaps because of people like you or Richie who don't think of MAME players as "the real deal" when they quite clearly are. Also, it could be that they just like the retro feel of arcade gaming; after all, this is a retro game, played mostly by 30- and 40-somethings who grew up when these games were new.
Actually, now that I think about it: I can't think of any MAME players who played arcade to "prove themselves" rather than just because they preferred it. Dean and Jeff learned to play on a cab in order to prepare for Kong Off II. Robbie did it because he wouldn't get a dedicated cabinet at Kong Off III unless he did; that's the reason Phil is going to do the same. It really doesn't make sense to have to play arcade to "prove yourself"; you're playing the exact same game with a slightly different control scheme. While I'm not that great of a player, my arcade performance is nearly exactly the same as my MAME performance. I don't think that it makes a big difference until you're at the skill level of Dean or Jeff, a level which most people in the top 12 haven't reached yet.
And you can always say MAME adds a certain % to your game that technically a 1,020M arcade can be greater than a 1,030 MAME, but that's very subjective. The stuff I've been dealing with on the control panel issues, button response/spring back of Mario, has really been killing my game lately that I actually have to change the way I play to accomodate for these occurances. When I switch back to a keyboard, hardly none of that happens. (Occasionally I'll see Dean get a no response button jump) but not near the amount I get on arcade.
Having played Donkey Kong on a cab and on MAME for the past few months now, I will say that I experience more lag issues on MAME than on a cabinet, likely because of Windows. In fact, I have never experienced lag or unresponsiveness while playing on a cabinet. Unless there is something wrong with your cabinet hardware, your button and joystick should respond perfectly 100% of the time. This isn't an issue with cabinets; it's an issue with your cabinet.
It's the old school mentality. It's not just about getting a high score, it's about doing it live in front of everyone at an arcade, at a big event. Deliver the goods when the pressure is on. Is this really so hard to understand?
So in your opinion, should only scores set live in front of everyone at an arcade, at a big event be accepted for Kong Off qualification? That currently is not a requirement.
It is clearly the opinion of the wider dk community that a score on a real arcade game is what will get you on a dedicated machine in the kong off.
I don't know where you are coming from with this. The majority of people I have heard from think that Richie has made the wrong decision, and wouldn't have done the same in his position. If it is the opinion of the "wider DK community", they haven't made it clear.
I don't have time to respond to some of the others posts I'd like to; I'll get to that later.
-
Only thing I think I want to say on this is where are you getting this "The majority of the DK community doesn't want MAME scores included" from George? So far everyone seems to be saying they SHOULD be included. Just because people HAVE arcade scores now doesn't mean they are saying "That mame stuff is weak". Again some of those arcade scores are only because they got to compete in KO2.
This affects both Phil and Robbie right now Dave. Robbie's Score of 1.021 isn't a legit TG score either so now how do you deal with that? Robbie's 1.07 mame score isn't "remarkable"? It's 5th place ALL time so that seems pretty remarkable to me.
Also the marathon analogy is actually quite false here. You must put up a SANCTIONED time at an event you COMPETE it. It's not go outside and just run a marathon and say "See here is my 3 hour time I just ran outside". BOTH Mame and your personal Arcade Cabinet would be a treadmill then if you want to compare it like that.
Just for the sake of asking who here believes MAME scores don't matter? If I look at the scoreboard and make some of my own assumptions:
Dean - No
Hank - I am not sure but i believe he thinks MAME scores are valid accomplishments.
Vince - No
Jeff W - No
Robbie - No
Steve W - No idea but he didn't have a problem with it at KO1/2
Billy M - Yes
Mark K - No idea but he supports the mame culture pretty heavily so I would assume NO
Phil T - No
Shaun Boyd - No idea
Tim Sczerby - No idea
Dave McCrary - No idea but ill say Yes just since he supports the Top 12 Arcade :)
Jon Mckinnell - No (Not sure)
Mike G - Yes?
Steve Wilt - ?
Kyle Goe - ?
Ben Falls - No
Svavar - No
Estel - No?
Jeff Wolfe - No?
Ross B - No
Ben Mazowite -?
Corey Chambers - No
Eric Howard - ?
Daniel Dock -?
Jimmy L ?
Scott Kessler - No
So that is what maybe 3 or 4 confirmed yes out of 25 people? I could be wrong on some but even so I would say that 3 out of 4 support it at a minimum. Isn't this a good thing? People are excited about this game and WANT to compete and play and be PART of this community! :D
-
Hank without a doubt wants to include MAME players. Steve Wiebe also (he knows MAME players are freaking good). Billy Mitchell... he's got to say he wants MAME players to be included at KO3 after what happened at KO2.
I would've understood NOT including MAME scores if MAME players wouldn't have performed well at KO1 and KO2, but the truth is that MAME players did incredible at both Kong Off's, even if they had never really played on a machine (especially at KO2).
And every MAME players I know could practice a little bit on a DK machine before going to the Kong Off 3 so they get used to the joystick/jump button/screen/etc. And even myself, that now plays on arcade, I'll need to get used to the machine I will play at Kong Off 3, since every DK machine are different with the joystick/jump button (sometime screen ratio).
-
Since we are naming names of who is Yes or No, there are a few others in the Yes camp.
-
George Leutz is cause trouble again! As far as the MAME and cab debate from me personally I learned playing on the cab at Funspot, then went home to practice on MAME. I personally just use MAME for practice which is the main reason why don't record INPs or submit to MARP. But I may be an exception since I live so close to Funspot. I wanted to practice on MAME before I went through the trouble of going up to Funspot's cab, buying a camera, and setting up a recording some attempts. Once I got the 1.07 score I felt like I was ready, and I ended up getting a good score recorded. I will be sending it out so it can be verified.
As far as it goes with the decision to accept MAME scores for the Kong Off 3, it is mainly opinion based. There is a lot of respect and a large following when it comes to MAME players. But Richie isn't a fan of MAME, so his opinion reflects on the outcome for the event. When I got the 1.07 I wanted to get a score on a cab just in case MAME was not accepted. Keep in mind that there's over 3 months for players to get a recorded score on a cab before the deadline. If any MAME players want to play in the Kong Off on a dedicated cab bad enough, they will find a way.
-
I think the point of this thread is getting blurred.
The issue is not whether MAME players should be included or not. I think 100% of people want to include the MAME players.
Many people may not know this but the reason Jeff Willms was invited to KO2 was because of (at least) 2 people on these forums who probably fall into the "arcade camp" who spoke to Richie and said this guy needs to get invited even though he did not have 1M on arcade at the time. EVERYONE wants to see the best of the best go at it. MAME OR arcade.
This issue is: should MAME scores be allowed as qualifying scores for KO3?
Discuss. I mean argue.
-
I don't belong in the "yes camp".
MAME scores of course 'matter'. They're just as significant as arcade scores.
This isn't about skill, per se. Being Phil T. is "the one" currently, using him as an example...does he deserve to play in the KO3 based on his 1.05M game, of course he does...i've watched his streams and his WR 1-1 game, he has amazing skill.
We are talking about 'technicalities'.
When U of M lost to Duke in the NCAA finals game because Chris Webber called a time out when they didn't have any time outs left, does that mean Duke was a better basketball team and deserved to win? Not exactly...but technically they won because of a frivolous rule.
When an NFL football game is decided by a last second field goal where the ball traveled right over the middle of an upright, does that mean becasue the referees called the field goal 'good', the team that kicked that field goal is better and deserved to 'win'? Not really...because if the refs called it bad the other team would have won...the refs decided the winner.
So what are the options? Boycott? Quit? Go play on an arcade cabinet somewhere? Buy an arcade cabinet? Get Twin Galaxies to change or bend the rules?
It's their event. It's their rules. Without it, there probably wouldn't be as much competition on this title...so I for one am glad there is a Kong Off at all. I had a ton of fun at the event last year, and hope to have as much fun this year.
I would predict that in 3 months or so, none of this will matter. I don't think any MAME player with a score that is in the top 12 overall...will be left out...whether it's right or wrong.
-
We are talking about 'technicalities'.
When U of M lost to Duke in the NCAA finals game because Chris Webber called a time out when they didn't have any time outs left, does that mean Duke was a better basketball team and deserved to win? Not exactly...but technically they won because of a frivolous rule.
When an NFL football game is decided by a last second field goal where the ball traveled right over the middle of an upright, does that mean becasue the referees called the field goal 'good', the team that kicked that field goal is better and deserved to 'win'? Not really...because if the refs called it bad the other team would have won...the refs decided the winner.
I don't know or care about sports, but from what I've heard, there seems to be a rule within the game itself which requires a referee to make calls on whether or not something is or isn't "good" or fair, and to call fouls and time-outs. Is this correct? I don't think it's a proper analogy either way; your examples are mistakes by referees and players, whereas the Donkey Kong ROM never makes mistakes in calculating your score (unless you consider the rollover to be one). The only mistake is a bad rule which doesn't need to be in place. You can say, "Oh well. The rules are stupid but we shouldn't do anything about it." However, that means the stupid rule (which has yet to be put into practice in the game's history) will never be changed. It's a frivolous rule which deserves to be changed.
-
One other topic regarding the original point of this thread...don't think it's been brought up yet...
If someone submits a score, 1.05M or something, a week or a few days before the cutoff date, and that score was recorded months before...but presumably held back by said player on purpose...will the score be accepted, or discounted due to "sandbagging"?
Kind of a tough one. I mean, given it's a legit score, and verified...they would most definately deserve a spot in the top 12 based on the performance, but would the unsportsmanlike way said player went about holding his/her tape until the last minute be enough for TG to maybe put the score up on the scoreboard officially, but not allow him/her to play at the KO3?
Or is that not unsportsmanlike at all? Just being strategic?
-
We are talking about 'technicalities'.
When U of M lost to Duke in the NCAA finals game because Chris Webber called a time out when they didn't have any time outs left, does that mean Duke was a better basketball team and deserved to win? Not exactly...but technically they won because of a frivolous rule.
When an NFL football game is decided by a last second field goal where the ball traveled right over the middle of an upright, does that mean becasue the referees called the field goal 'good', the team that kicked that field goal is better and deserved to 'win'? Not really...because if the refs called it bad the other team would have won...the refs decided the winner.
I don't know or care about sports, but from what I've heard, there seems to be a rule within the game itself which requires a referee to make calls on whether or not something is or isn't "good" or fair, and to call fouls and time-outs. Is this correct? I don't think it's a proper analogy either way; your examples are mistakes by referees and players, whereas the Donkey Kong ROM never makes mistakes in calculating your score (unless you consider the rollover to be one). The only mistake is a bad rule which doesn't need to be in place. You can say, "Oh well. The rules are stupid but we shouldn't do anything about it." However, that means the stupid rule (which has yet to be put into practice in the game's history) will never be changed. It's a frivolous rule which deserves to be changed.
In the end, the folks who run a tourney decide on how they want to admit competitors. Say a 16 year old kid knew he was good enough to win The Masters, say his family even had a membership and he shot a round of 65 there in front of his family one day and some pro golfers also. He figures that's enough to secure a spot, but the organizers state that the rules they set forth require certain criteria to be met prior to playing in the Masters. Despite having crushed the same golf course the tourney will take place on, this person still has to follow the preliminary guidelines set by the tournament's governing body.
-
One other topic regarding the original point of this thread...don't think it's been brought up yet...
If someone submits a score, 1.05M or something, a week or a few days before the cutoff date, and that score was recorded months before...but presumably held back by said player on purpose...will the score be accepted, or discounted due to "sandbagging"?
Kind of a tough one. I mean, given it's a legit score, and verified...they would most definately deserve a spot in the top 12 based on the performance, but would the unsportsmanlike way said player went about holding his/her tape until the last minute be enough for TG to maybe put the score up on the scoreboard officially, but not allow him/her to play at the KO3?
Or is that not unsportsmanlike at all? Just being strategic?
I see absolutely no reason not to accept such a score. What's the issue?
-
One other topic regarding the original point of this thread...don't think it's been brought up yet...
If someone submits a score, 1.05M or something, a week or a few days before the cutoff date, and that score was recorded months before...but presumably held back by said player on purpose...will the score be accepted, or discounted due to "sandbagging"?
Kind of a tough one. I mean, given it's a legit score, and verified...they would most definately deserve a spot in the top 12 based on the performance, but would the unsportsmanlike way said player went about holding his/her tape until the last minute be enough for TG to maybe put the score up on the scoreboard officially, but not allow him/her to play at the KO3?
Or is that not unsportsmanlike at all? Just being strategic?
I would accept it as it followed the guidelines set forth by the process. However, the player has to reconcile with the fact that some other players might, for whatever reason, frown upon holding onto their submission until the zero hour and is the risk of potentially alienating yourself in some ways, worth a spot in a video game tournament.
-
I see absolutely no reason not to accept such a score. What's the issue?
Well, let's say Steve Weeberton scores 1,020,000 tomorrow, sends in the tape, gets his score verified, and he is sitting in 12th place.
Flash forward to the day of the KO cutoff, Oct 25th.
Billy Billerton is announced as having scored 1,020,100 by a TG referee, knocking Steve Weeberton out of the top 12 on the last day of the cutoff, ruining his chances of playing on a dedicated machine at the KO3.
Come to find out, Billy Billerton's tape was recorded 5 months before, in May of 2013...and he purposely held it until the last minute so he could submit it, knock Steve Weeberton out, and not give anyone else a chance to beat his score due to the cutoff deadline.
Fair, not fair?
-
I see absolutely no reason not to accept such a score. What's the issue?
Well, let's say Steve Weeberton scores 1,020,000 tomorrow, sends in the tape, gets his score verified, and he is sitting in 12th place.
Flash forward to the day of the KO cutoff, Oct 25th.
Billy Billerton is announced as having scored 1,020,100 by a TG referee, knocking Steve Weeberton out of the top 12 on the last day of the cutoff, ruining his chances of playing on a dedicated machine at the KO3.
Come to find out, Billy Billerton's tape was recorded 5 months before, in May of 2013...and he purposely held it until the last minute so he could submit it, knock Steve Weeberton out, and not give anyone else a chance to beat his score due to the cutoff deadline.
Fair, not fair?
It's fair. In my opinion, Steve Weeberton should have anticipated a score ahead of his having been verified any time after he set his score, even if it's the day before the tournament. If he was good enough, he should have scored high enough to be several places up in case something like that happened.
-
And how would a 3D-printed arcade cab be any different from a MAME cab? Neither would employ original hardware.
An mame cab has an emulator in it. A 3d printed arcade cab will be a perfect replication. There is a big difference between emulation and replication.
No rocks and sticks in dk death match. Everyone gets a hammer and a pair of squeaky jumping shoes, and that's it.
-
There is a big difference between emulation and replication.
And what is that big difference? It's the exact same ROM playing at the exact same speed. I bet you wouldn't even be able to tell the difference between a MAME machine which was set to the right settings and using a Sanyo EZ20 replica (if such a thing would ever even exist) and an actual cabinet using original hardware.
Both replication and emulation are a type of imitation. There's really no major differences aside from the fact that MAME could potentially allow for a different monitor and control scheme.
-
Emulation is not perfect. Replication is.
-
Emulation is not perfect. Replication is.
As far as I know, the Donkey Kong MAME emulation is one of the few emulations which is perfect. However, if it is as you say it is: What flaws does the Donkey Kong MAME emulation have? What behavior does the MAME ROM have which isn't present in the arcade ROM? Further, what makes you think that a replication is going to be perfect? If people make replications, they're going to be doing exactly what the MAME emulator does: Trying to get as close as is possible. I think it's possible for both to get all the way there, and I think MAME has already done it.
-
Emulation is not perfect. Replication is.
I feel like every movie I've ever seen that involves clones ends poorly. :P
-
" It really doesn't make sense to have to play arcade to "prove yourself" "
And yet people do it. Sometimes you do things for other reasons besides sensible ones. You are forgetting the social pressure factor I mentioned before.
As for the "yes no" list, I didn't do a headcount, but just briefly skimming by it, it looks like most don't have a strong opinion or you don't know their opinion for sure. That doesn't make it a majority of yes's by any means. And there are many others I would consider a part of the DK community that aren't on that list: Arcade champions on other games that you will see at the kong off, easily as many if not twice as many as are on your list; People who are part of the community but like to stay behind the scenes; spectators. This is the larger DK community, and I think I am on safe ground to say they don't agree with you, in a general consensus sense. Does that help you understand what I meant when I said the wider community doesn't agree with the core mame advocates?
I think Steve made the best point about the sandbagging issue. It may be technically fair, but no one will have a beer with you at the kong off and you will get dirty looks all weekend. Maybe you have no social graces and don't care about that, though. Also if Steve Weeberton in this scenario is the size of a wookie with fists the size of mike Vacca's and a temper like Roy Shildt, billy billerton may get a punch in the face for good measure.
See there is a similar thread running through all of these subjects I've just addressed. The social issue. I think some of you keep forgetting to factor the social issue into the equation. And not the online social community, real face to face interaction. It is so important, and you guys have a big blind spot to it.
-
The main flaw in emulation is it is just a rom. It doesn't have the whole arcade cabinet surrounding it. You can even build a cabinet around a computer running emulation, but it is still just a computer running an emulator. Like I said before, there is more to arcade gaming than a rom and a score. There will always be people who don't take it as seriously because it isn't the real thing.
On a molecular level, the replication of 500 years from now will be exact.
-
"It really doesn't make sense to have to play arcade to 'prove yourself'"
And yet people do it.
Can you name one?
As for the "yes no" list, I didn't do a headcount, but just briefly skimming by it, it looks like most don't have a strong opinion or you don't know their opinion for sure. That doesn't make it a majority of yes's by any means.
Nor does it mean the majority agrees with you.
And there are many others I would consider a part of the DK community that aren't on that list: Arcade champions on other games that you will see at the kong off, easily as many if not twice as many as are on your list; People who are part of the community but like to stay behind the scenes; spectators. This is the larger DK community, and I think I am on safe ground to say they don't agree with you, in a general consensus sense. Does that help you understand what I meant when I said the wider community doesn't agree with the core mame advocates?
For what reason do you think most of these people disagree with us? Also, why do you consider them part of the Donkey Kong community? People who don't even talk on the forums or do anything except occasionally watch some Donkey Kong video they saw on YouTube or go to the Kong Off because it's a cool classic game event don't really count as people involved with the community. For the most part, they don't even know what the community is.
The main flaw in emulation is it is just a rom. It doesn't have the whole arcade cabinet surrounding it. You can even build a cabinet around a computer running emulation, but it is still just a computer running an emulator. Like I said before, there is more to arcade gaming than a rom and a score. There will always be people who don't take it as seriously because it isn't the real thing.
On a molecular level, the replication of 500 years from now will be exact.
An original Donkey Kong is just a computer running a game. What's your point about that? As for the "molecular level" claim: On the molecular level, not even every original Donkey Kong board is even close to exactly the same. Like I asked: What does it matter if it's an emulation? Like I said, unless you peered into the back, you could play on a MAME machine for hours without even realizing it, so long as the monitor is the same and the settings are correct. Is the Kong Off a tournament or an arcade history appreciation event? If it's the latter, why make it out to the public like it is a tournament?
Ultimately, the point is moot; no one is suggesting that MAME machines be set up for the Kong Off.
-
This replicator thing is taking the thread into "moods" territory...
-
Of course I can name one. Every one of the top mame players has played on arcade to prove themselves to the community.
kyou, bring up the mame vs arcade issue, and ask me your questions again when we meet in person at the Kong Off 3, surrounded by what I think is the wider DK community. You may feel different about it when you are there. Hopefully you will be allowed in. Did we ever find out an answer about letting underage players in?
Emulation may seem the same, but the fact is it isn't. That is my point and it is inescapable. Replication is the future. It will not only be virtually the same, like emulation, it will truly be impossible to tell the difference.
Replications with moods? come on now, chris, that's just silly.
-
Of course I can name one. Every one of the top mame players has played on arcade to prove themselves to the community.
Is that the reason why all of the top MAME players played on arcade? As far as I know, the usual reasons for this are because they either have to in order to qualify for Kong Off III, want to practice for the Kong Off, prefer the arcade hardware, or want a score which will get more public notoriety.
kyou, bring up the mame vs arcade issue, and ask me your questions again when we meet in person at the Kong Off 3, surrounded by what I think is the wider DK community. You may feel different about it when you are there. Hopefully you will be allowed in. Did we ever find out an answer about letting underage players in?
Yes. Underage people are allowed.
Emulation may seem the same, but the fact is it isn't. That is my point and it is inescapable. Replication is the future. It will not only be virtually the same, like emulation, it will truly be impossible to tell the difference.
It is currently possible to make a MAME machine indistinguishable from an original Donkey Kong cabinet. The fact is that neither emulation or replication are exactly the same as an original Donkey Kong board. Not even every original Donkey Kong board is the same at the point of sameness which you believe is required to call something "same" (that is, same on the molecular level). The fact is that whether or not a MAME machine looks the same in the back, it behaves the same as an original Donkey Kong ROM. For tournament score submission purposes, why does it matter? Do you think that a MAME machine player will be at all worse than a replication or original cabinet player? I'd go as far as saying they would be the exact same on either other platform. Why? Because there aren't any perceivable differences; that is, ones which you can see without checking the inside of the cabinet.
-
I hope this thread steers itself back to being somewhat informative about the event and a bit less about bickering. From what I understand so far, MAME players are invited to compete, but just not with a dedicated machine -- the Wildcard Division has been greatly expanded this time around with a whole bunch of machines so hopefully play time for those players will be less of an issue now.
If the tournament organizers stand by this decision -- perhaps we should discuss some other ideas. I'm still not clear on exactly how the Wildcard format will work this year so maybe this is already happening -- but I think a cool idea would be (assuming Wildcard players can afford and are able to extend their trip) to have any Wildcard players who are around on, say, Wednesday and Thursday compete against each other, using all 20-something available machines, for the chance at using, say, an additional 4 dedicated machines for the main tournament over the weekend, boosting the dedicated machine total to 16 which "could" be filled by MAME players if they do well in this pre-tournament (although we wouldn't want to take 4 machines away from the Wildcard players -- it would be nice if MORE machines could be squeezed in to do something like this, which may or may not be logistically feasible).
Also, although it's certainly NOT official, it seems pretty clear that exceptions WOULD be made if something extraordinary happens on the MAME side. For all players involved, it would just be nice if the tournament organizers would spell out this unwritten criteria. For example, I'm assuming that if someone beats the existing arcade WR score of 1,138,600 in MAME that person is absolutely getting a dedicated machine. Too high? Well, what about if someone were to beat the KO2 first place score of 1,107,600? (or was it slightly less?) To me, that might be the minimum logical point at which an exception should "OBVIOUSLY" be made for a MAME player. Below this it becomes pretty subjective and I'm sure the tournament organizers are wary of a situation where a half dozen MAME scores roll in at the last minute that are in that range near Billy and Steve's arcade scores and then what do you do?
I've said a couple of times that in my own personal experience, transitioning from MAME to an arcade cabinet did NOT happen over night. It took me probably about 10 different play sessions before I was comfortable enough with the controls to feel like I could be competitive at a live event. If a MAME players shows up and literally has never played on a cabinet, there IS a real possibility that this player could be given a dedicated cabinet for the event and that player never scores higher than 250k, which would essentially screw the bubble boy who would have at least been competitive. Some MAME players have not had that much of an issue with the transition, but I know I did and others did also. So, I don't think this whole issue is that cut and dry. BUT, it would be nice if everyone involved would work towards SOLUTIONS instead of being uninclusive and just disillusioning people away from the contest and the community.
-
I don't have a big blind spot to it George. The social aspect is great and people here online also do make it to some of these events. What I don't understand is why is it more "social" to record a score on the cabinet sitting in your house versus the "mame" cabinet sitting in your house? That is really the cause for the "why does that matter" question here.
ALL of the mame players (well not one) have arcade scores now so the logic of excluding them is flawed by the same argument used to include them George :)
The only point of my yes / no list is as you see now almost EVERYONE here supports the mame scores being included. Still even if its 50/50 at this point (Which my completely unscientific poll shows its more likely the 3/4 I originally stated) I just cannot wrap my head around why someone cares either way to be completely honest in regards to how we get the competition lineup at the KO3? Isn't the competition what it is about that that is where the "Social" aspect is to be found?
I did read something that if someone puts up a 1.1 million score then Richie will absolutely consider that as a qualifier for a machine so that kind of has been covered Dean if it is the case and I think it is a perfect option for the Mame community. "Fine all you mame players. Want a dedicate machine you need to get 1.1 million'. It's a goal that is achievable and gives some credit to those in the MAME community and for those who just don't have an option of getting to play on a cabinet.
I totally get that Richie / Jourdan have worked really hard to have a lot more WC machines and really want to make this event fun for all and yes even "fair" to the WC division. That is awesome and I really am not trying to come across as a debbie-downer at all. I just tend to get overly engaged sometimes and I do not mean any disrespect to anyone so hopefully no one takes anything I say that way. :)
Also Dean there is an event on Friday to "pre-qualify" for the WC machines and even the WCR are taking scores into consideration so that is AWESOME and does give some more "Street" cred to those mamers' . I hope the dedicated machines will all be available for the Friday session if needed as I may have to play Friday if I want to have any chance at all of competing. I'll probably come just to hang out regardless but I would at least like to try. :)
-
Qualifying for the kong off and gaining public notoriety is just another way of saying proving yourself to the community.
The emulator may behave the same, but it is not the same when you open it up. An arcade cabinet has different parts than a computer. You keep ignoring what I am saying: donkey kong is more than a rom and a score. You have a different opinion about it, I understand. I think you are wrong. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. Let's stop fighting now, we're starting to annoy Dean. I don't want any trouble from Dean. He can shoot lasers from his brain like a brain from Robotron. I don't want to be responsible for the carnage. Then I'll have to clean up the mess.
Replication at present is not advanced, but in the distant future it will be exact. Not just exact behavior but exactly the same when you look under the hood. :)
I'm glad you will be allowed in, kyou. We'll continue our mame vs arcade debate at the Kong Off 3. Since it can't be an informal discussion over a beer because of your age, maybe we should make it fun by having a side event- a debate off, as it were:)
And Dean I tried to suggest a solution, but no one listened to me.
Donkey Kong death match! >:(
;D
-
I haven't looked over you list, Dan. But I remember a lot of guessing what people think and I don't know what they think. That isn't an accurate picture of 50 percent, 75 percent or any percent. If anything it means most don't have a strong enough opinion to cast their lot for either camp. And it doesn't matter to me because as I made clear in an earlier post, your list is not inclusive of the wider community as I see it. Not even half of it.
By social I don't only mean in person, although that is a big part of it, but also the social pressures that shape the field. See the sandbagging example, or the idea of proving yourself to the community. These are also social issues, which are being overlooked.
But I must stop arguing now, I see deans eyes are beginning to glow blue and can smell that ozone smell and hear the crackling of electricity. now we are definitely pushing it. You are lucky you just made it in before the window closed. If you have a response, don't be offended that it goes unanswered. You may have the last word here.
-
Yup I agree we can debate it all later. When I get this 1.1 score! (Yeah right). :D
I won't be offended sir and I don't consider this arguing. I consider this good open discussion which is healthy :) I hope no one here is offended like I said that was never my intent. So far all of the people here have said "Yes MAME is ok" but you're saying that a lot of people in wider dk community really had/have an issue that Dean/Vince and Jeff were there based on MAME scores? Wow I didn't know that.
The arcade score is definitely a bigger ribbon to wear on your chest but shouldn't make you any less of a DK soldier without it. :(
-
How will machine selection work at the KO3?
Last year when I arrived on Friday, there were players that had arrived much earlier in the week who had already taped their names to the machines. The cabinets were a bit "picked over" by Friday night but I did luckily find a machine I liked.
Is it going to be the same "first-come, first-serve" approach? Or is the "machine selection break" on Friday night going to be organized differently?
-
Actually Shaun I didn't think it was that early for KO2, I got their early Wednesday for the exact reason of picking my machine early because of what happened to me Kong Off 1 (I was the late arrival and all machiens were picked). But, Jourdan held off letting people select machines until Friday evening. I must have drove him nuts because once I found a machine, I wanted to secure it.
But, it's pretty clear this time. Friday at 5 PM will be machine selection for the Top 12. So, I guess you can play around on them during the day Friday. As for the order of picking, I don't know how they are handling that.
Unless a miracle happens this evening, I'll be wonder how the wildcard selection works.
-
I thought I read somewhere that machine selection is done by rank...so #1 picks first, and so on.
-
all machiens were picked
Intentional or unintentional? =) This reminds me of a C++ project I did as an undergrad. I defined a class with a member named "machine". I called it using class->machien and got some really strange bugs. It took me hours to find it.
I thought I read somewhere that machine selection is done by rank...so #1 picks first, and so on.
Yeah Mike, this was one of the questions I sent over to them.
In what order do the players get to select their machines on Friday?
It is based upon the top 12. No 1 picks first, No.2 picks second, etc.
At the first 2 KO's, it was supposed to be first come first served, but at the first 2 KO's it was pretty much a free for all. I'm glad this year seems like it will be more organized. As much as it stinks to interrupt the WC tournament on Friday, I think it's necessary to have some dedicated/scheduled time for machine selection in an orderly manner. As Dean pointed out, this year machine selection will not be a big issue. Even the 12th person will get to pick from 11 machines. At the first 2 KO's where there were not many excess machines, it was an issue.
Since I get first pick, I'm going to pick the red cabinet that Vincent used for his 1.135M. Then I'm going to paint it blue and hang up Mike's "no Canadians allowed" sign overhead. Vince, you better beat my score today if you don't want to see this happen.
-
all machiens were picked
Intentional or unintentional? =) This reminds me of a C++ project I did as an undergrad. I defined a class with a member named "machine". I called it using class->machien and got some really strange bugs. It took me hours to find it.
I've been making that same typo a lot lately....maybe it is subconscious. LOL
-
Great! Thanks for the info guys.
-
I request to sit next to Ross. I sat next to him last year in the wild card and had my best game. Also we can name it the Swearing Section.
-
I sat next to Vince last year. Surprisingly he was very quiet and I was the noisy one.
-
Would that be the 'no homo' section? :P
-
Is there a players dinner this year? I thought it was Thursday night, but haven't heard for sure.
-
Is this a completely open/free event this year? I don't recall seeing anything about tickets, or about getting wrist bands, etc...