Donkey Kong Forum
Other Classic Arcade Games => Classic Arcade Game Discussion => Topic started by: johnmcallister on May 18, 2018, 11:37:41 am
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Doing some research into Pole Position and how it scores. Found that the timer in PP is 40 frames per second.
00 01 02 03
14 15 16 17
28 29 20 21 whats going on here, Atari and their bad math
32 33 34 35
46 47 48 49
50 51 52 53
64 65 66 67
78 79 70 71
82 83 84 85
96 97 98 99
You won't see any lap times that end in 04-13 18,19 22-27 and so on.
You advance through the track the fastest when you are in the inside of the track, a couple of seconds slower if you go on the outside of the turns.
195 speed or difficulty and you will travel around the course almost 10 seconds slower.
225 speed or difficulty and you go nearly the same as the 244 max or difficulty speed would go around the course. The turns are more difficult because you will skid more even though the game says you are going at a slower speed. You don't pass as many cars in either of the slower difficulties.
There seems to be a few spots in the game where you travel faster, most notably in the end of the hairpin turn. If you are in 1st gear you will all of a sudden see the track and scenery moving past you much faster for a short time. The engine even goes up a few notches in pitch.
In a cockpit using the brake can gain you around 1-3 tenths of a second at the end of the race by using the brake and shifting into 1st gear just before the end of the race where the computer takes control of your car. <<<<<< I think that has been proven false sorry about that, I had tested it but reviewing it I was wrong.
The Namco version boardset has different car patterns and I believe is an easier version of the game. The cars migrate towards the center of the road and allow you to pass them on the inside or outside and if your in a corner going on the inside will net you a faster time.
The optimal time to shift gears is at 115 and a spread of around 5-10 either direction but you will start to loose time as you get closer to either edge of that limit.
You can manipulate the car pattern on the first lap by starting the game in different states of the attract mode. The map of the road will yield one type and if you start the game when the demo mode of racing starts you will get another.
Coming out of the first turn in the game if you touch both sides of the road or yellow strip the cars for the remainder of that lap will be spread out and closer to the edges of the road. So the first corner is to the right, make sure you are touching the yellow strip at some point before it ends and then cross the road in the straight away and touch the left hand side and then your set.
After the first lap of the race you can take the 1st turn at full speed 244 mph and make the turn without loosing any speed. This is a very difficult thing to do and I've only done it once. Only learned that I could do this on my last couple of races that I was able to play before I didn't have access to a machine anymore.
On the qualifying lap you can sit at the start of it for as long as you want to before the timer runs out. So if you sit there for the first 10-20 seconds of the race and then go your lap time will be the same as if you started at the first chance you had. During this wait the cars advance down the track all the way to the first turn where you can't see them. As you start to go down the track you will encounter the first set of cars just as you enter the first turn. While doing this I noticed that I would get different car setups during the actual race and some of them were very different and in some ways much better for the overall time of the 1st lap. More research needs to be put into this as it might make for some real good setups where all the cars are on one side of the track, making for some really fast times.
So far the fastest way that I know of to get through the hairpin turn is to stay on the road as much as possible and not touch the grass. After getting a little bit more than halfway through or just after you pass the sign on the left try to turn the wheel to get back into the center or even better, to the right hand side of the road. You will when done correctly come to the next sign up the road going around 229-233 mph.
Does anyone have anything to add to this list or any suggestions on what to try to get even faster times.
What are some of your fastest qualifying lap times. I've had 2-3 52.35 qualifying lap times.
What are some of your fastest racing lap times. I've had a couple in the range of 52.66 and 52.71
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Here is a link to the Namco version of Pole Position, you'll see that the car patterns are slightly different at times and I believe make the game much easier. I didn't get enough time on this machine to adjust and put up a decent score though.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LU-BEXWZ0VPB8adtFhbnh1MZijgZy1Bh (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1LU-BEXWZ0VPB8adtFhbnh1MZijgZy1Bh)
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Hi John, thank for all the info! I feel as though I'm just getting to a somewhat capable place with scoring, although largely relying on feel and instinct rather than precision. I finally broke through the 65k barrier last night and had a 65,000 even, 2 65,050s and a 65,060 (I remembered to downshift at the finish line!).
On the qualifying lap I must be doing it very sub-optimally as my fastest lap is only 55.85. I imagine my hairpin turn needs work - quite a bit as I'm bailing out into the inside red/grass way too much.
I've seen what might be a TAS emulation of a youtube 67k run, but it seems as though that person is getting a mystery 350 added on to the qualifying race which I do not understand. It lives here
I'm really interested in getting my game to a 66k level
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Nice going on getting into the 65k range. After so many races you begin to not even worry about crashing anymore, except in the first turn and the hairpin. If you don't know the car pattern is in either you have to just hope they stay out of your way and make do.
At first I thought it was a TAS also but it is not. The guy has played the game a bunch and even has a spreadsheet with all his races and he describes his gameplay in detail.
The hairpin curve is a mystery. I've been doing a spreadsheet on it and I'm still not sure the best way to handle it. If I go into the grass the first part of the turn I get better times going through it, but come out going to slow and loose time later. If I stay on the road I get pretty good times but somewhere in there I still lose a bunch of time. I'm going to try and apply the brake before I get into the curve and see if I can do less or no skidding and see if times get better.
When I review my gameplay I notice that I'm still not getting to the far inside of the turns as much as I need to be. There are some cars that you can pass on the inside of some turns but determining which ones is still a mystery most of the time.
It's a challenge to get into the 66k range. I had about 10 games where I finally got 65810 and then finally I broke through into the 66k range but haven't seen it since. Just keep practicing and trying to get further inside on the turns and you'll soon be into the 66k range.
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That mame run was freaking almost perfect.
I'll break this down vs Richies 65k score.
Richies - MAME -
Richie Qualifying - 56"30 - 14,000
MAME Qualifying - 55"65 - 14,070
70 point difference? Have a feeling this is a bug since the qualifying lap is only supposed to be 14,000 points?
Trying to get scores right as the get Extended Play on the screen.
Lap 1
Richie - 24,020 - 56"50? (Hard to read)
MAME - 24,150 - 56"28
130 Point Difference
Lap 2
Richie - 34,070 - 53"4x (Hard to read)
MAME - 34,260 - 52"70"
190 Point Difference
Lap 3
Richie - 44,020 - 52"4x?
MAME - 44,310 - 53"16
290 Point Difference
Lap 4
Richie - 54,010 - 53"4x?
MAME - 54,350 - 52"70
340 Point Difference
Math is not adding up lap times of 56.28+52.60+53.16+52.70 = 214.74 but overall time says 215"99 for MAME run? I have a feeling this is also a glitch/error? Someone mentioned the game usually rounds up race times by a half second? but this is well over a full second or 1.25 seconds??? Still its only 1.48 seconds slower than the 213.26 fastest EVER lap times in the post I list below
Final Times on screen
Richie - 216"70
MAME - 215"99
Passed Cars
Richie - 50 x 138 cars = 6,900 points
MAME - 50 x 138 cars = 6,900 points
Time Bonus
Richie - 200 x 28 = 5,600 points
MAME - 200 x 29 = 5,800 points
Final Scores
Richie - 66,560
MAME - 67,050
490 point difference (Did not get the mysterious extra 10 points for some reason or would have been 67,060 still 250 points off world record with a lap time actually faster in lap four than described in a post at so the 1 second plus the mystery passed car issue still seems to come up. Sadly yeah photoshop exists and any "photos" now are quite plainly IMO suspect.
https://forums.arcade-museum.com/archive/index.php/t-281561.html
"The lowest lap times that I can remember are:
Lap One: 55.84
Lap Two: 52.20
Lap Three: 52.20
Lap Four: 53.02"
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The lap time for the mame score on lap 4 is 53.35, the 52.70 you stated was the fastest lap of the race.
Mame for some reason adds around 70 points per lap, times 5 laps = 350 points. So this score actually would be if done on a machine would have been 66700.
You got some wrong times in your calculation
56.28+52.60+53.16+52.70 = 214.74
56.28+52.70+53.16+53.35 = 215.49 and add the half second and you get 215.99
Atari math sometimes is messed up, I also noticed some math issues on Agent X or Cloak & Dagger.
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Ah whoops ok didnt realize that I was trying to go frame at a time. :D
Just noticed it shows the 53"35 for a second and then the 52.70!
Hmmm sooooo what if this magic 350 points is the same nonsense that mame is doing? Maybe an early rom revision or something else? Doesnt anyone think its odd that mame just magically adds 70 points a lap?
The lap time for the mame score on lap 4 is 53.35, the 52.70 you stated was the fastest lap of the race.
Mame for some reason adds around 70 points per lap, times 5 laps = 350 points. So this score actually would be if done on a machine would have been 66700.
You got some wrong times in your calculation
56.28+52.60+53.16+52.70 = 214.74
56.28+52.70+53.16+53.35 = 215.49 and add the half second and you get 215.99
Atari math sometimes is messed up, I also noticed some math issues on Agent X or Cloak & Dagger.
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Tonight’s results attached. New PB of 65,550 set at Galloping Ghost and just one car shy of the House high of 65,600. What really kills me is that I was hundredths of a second from the next tick and a 65,750. Thank you so much again for the tips, they really helped!!!
I attempted to “control†the array of cars that pops out as described above, but still often ended up with the horrible four-cluster followed by four-in-the-hairpin. It’s still death for me 99% of the time with four. With three in the hairpin, I’m usually good, and able to lap between 56 and 57. Typically my subsequent laps are around 54. Fastest qualifying is now 55'53. I’m still getting slightly better just driving but I’m rapidly approaching a spot where I’ll need to really unpack this game.
By the way, what do folks think of the Lagier score? I’ve read a ton about the history. I don’t necessarily doubt it occurred, but think it’s fascinating no one in the past 20 years has even gotten closer than 800 points. I would have thought someone would have at least verified with TAS what the limit was, especially post-Dragstergate.
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Another thing I would love to find out is how much time you lose hitting each puddle.
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Well it is worth discussing that top 2 scores of all time were done in the SAME tournament, over the same weekend, on the SAME pole position cabinet and no one has managed to come close in over 34+ years. I dont quite understand how going faster would somehow gain you the ability to pass a bunch of extra cars and I also find it odd that we still dont have a single video of a 67k+ score from either of these two guys in 35+ years (Well none that I have seen or are aware of)? Kinda the same questions I had with Mr Rodgers scores in that there is a lot of talk but no video? At least perhaps that PP cabinet was off perhaps just like how mame scores that 350 extra points? Basically to me anymore if there is no video I just dont believe any of the scores from the 80s. Way to many folks been caught flat out lying and the history of how those scores got into TG from 1500points makes it all suspect. :)
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Richie does claim in the comments of his youtube that he has unlocked 67 so "he figured he would share old techniques"
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Kinda the same questions I had with Mr Rodgers scores in that there is a lot of talk but no video?
Mind the D....
Perry Rodgers - Good, legit player
Todd Rogers - FailFish
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HAHA omg the D.... :D Whoops
Kinda the same questions I had with Mr Rodgers scores in that there is a lot of talk but no video?
Mind the D....
Perry Rodgers - Good, legit player
Todd Rogers - FailFish
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Yeah we can all assume a perfect run will get you 67k and Richie is still 300+ points off the record. His 3rd place score if he goes TWO seconds faster is only 400 points more for 66910 and that means he is still another 400 points off the 67,310. It just doesnt add up. Somehow going faster you pass 8 MORE cars? I've seen a photo of 214" times with a #1 score of 67,010 and then just a photo of the 67,260 high score in the top left (shocking huh why not the high score table showing all the scores including the time for that 67,260?) Why not the photos of the times and scores for the 67,260 and the 67,310? Basically they are saying not only are they in the 213" range for time to get that addition 200 points but also in the process passed a miracle ONE more car and then Les somehow got the super miracle passed TWO more cars? All in the same same weekend/contest? Sorry I'm still skeptical.
Richie does claim in the comments of his youtube that he has unlocked 67 so "he figured he would share old techniques"
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Regarding danman's comments:
The photos you have seen are all that I have to prove my score of 67,260.
There is a history of score progression. Various magazines and Twin Galaxies scoreboard updates show both Les and I going back and forth, raising the record by 50 or 200 points over a period of months.
We did not leap to the 213.xx time required for a 67,260 or 67,310 score. We climbed the ladder one rung at a time.
One photo does show a top score of 67,010, with a race time of 214.xx seconds.
Our race times were 213.xx seconds.
200 points awarded for one second faster race time, 50 points awarded per car passed, resulting in scores of 67,260 or 67,310.
Les and I did both play on the same machine. I worked at the arcade Video Paradise, and Les lived a few miles away, so he also played on the same machine. The owner of the arcade provided that same machine to Space Shuttle Arcade for the Guinness contest. I believe that there was nothing special about that machine, as I have reached scores of 67,010 (214.xx race times) on my machine at home.
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Richies race was far from perfect as I've come to find out. There are so many things that make you slow down, being in outside of turn, hitting a puddle, touching the rumble strip or grass, getting to close to another car, skidding, it all adds up even though you can't see it on the screen it adds up.
I've been working on a spreadsheet inputting data of races that I have done and can analyze areas of the track and see the slow downs and the areas where you go fastest. It comes down to basically 100 sections on the track each equaling 100 points for a total of 10000 points per lap. In each 100 section it takes around .5 seconds of in game time to do. If you can stay at top speed and be on the right place on the track you will have a time of 50 seconds. Obviously cars, puddles, and sharp turns prevent that from happening. So to maximize your time you have to whenever possible be on the correct portion of track and be at top speed to get the fastest time.
I've only been able to have small sections where I was getting that .5 per 100 section and not enough of them. So if you have say .5 + 1 frame per section that extra frame will add 2.5 seconds of time. 40 frames per in game time, 100 frames lost in the 100 sections = 2.5 seconds. There are sections of the track specifically in the hairpin turn along with a few other tight turns that you can actually gain a frame or two, usually at the cost of speed.
While experimenting in mame I figured this out.
Found out that after your race and entering initials that once it cycles back to that screen and shows your best lap and avg speed that the avg speed is only for that fastest lap and not the whole race. Again Atari math involved and I can't find the formula they used to get all 3 numbers to be figured out. Speed, Time, Distance, they just don't add up to the numbers that get reported.
Now go out and play some Pole Position and have fun.
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Here is another photo from the 80's that may be of interest.
It shows a race time of 214'02, just three hundredths of a second from the required 213.xx world record time.
And a fastest lap of 52'15, possibly the fastest lap time I have ever seen.
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Oh man that is a close one, only 2 frames from getting the extra second. Scoring is from .01 - .00. So if you had a 214.00 it would count as being a 213.xx and you would get the extra seconds.
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Thanks for responding I was hopeful you would. :D
Again this is I assume on your cabinet? I said im skeptical because well frankly you and Les both get the BEST run of your lives in the same tournament on the SAME cabinet? Did you get these 67,260 scores on a different Pole Position cabinet or just your cabinet? Do either of you have a video you made getting 67k+ scores in the last 30+ years? My point was perhaps there was an issue with the cabinet and you could go a little faster than normal? Early romset issue? Bad rom due to a power surge? I'm certain you are very good at this game and I'm sorry I'm so skeptical but way to many of these 80's scores with this exact type of scenario (no videos and and no one else has come close to this score in 30+ years) have ended up being false but I do appreciate you coming in an discussing it here and posting the photos! I'm just a bit of a cynic about these things nothing personal for sure :D
I need to figure out how to just TAS this thing and be done with it.
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More messing around in mame.
Was trying to see if you could set the cars up into specific patterns. Seems you can manipulate the starting setup. Crossing the finish line and being at different places of the track yielded different setups. I did a save state before the end of the qualifying lap and then from there tried to cross the finish line at different spots. Just before the start of the race from there I save stated again and then went different paths and speed to the first turn where you see cars. I would then reload the second save state and do it again and again, the cars always were in the same spot. Go back to save state 1 and cross line at different spot. Go to first turn with cars and different pattern of cars would appear.
From save state 2 the start of the race after qualifying I would always get the same pattern of cars. Only when I load save state 1 could I get a different pattern on that first turn of cars.
I have a race recorded where all the cars on the first lap of the race were on the right hand side of the track, not a good set up by the way as you will have to be in the outside of the turn on too much of the race and yield slower times.
So it seems that crossing the finish line at different spots will set the cars up for the rest of that lap. If you could find the perfect spot and have them set up on the left side of the track you would now be able to beat the record.
I have noticed that the original setup that you get from the first turn of cars in the qualifying lap will stay the same throughout the 1st lap of the race, it might even be for the rest of the game. I've noticed that the 2 orange cars that are in the first group will almost always stay where they are for the rest of the race. Meaning that when you pass them and then in the next group of cars they will be in the same spots they were in when you passed them. The white car seems to sometimes move around, not sure why though.
After the first lap the game adds random cars to the groupings, I'm not sure where or why they place them the way they do. If that can be figured out and manipulated the game will become much easier.
The next time I get to play though I will be crossing the finish line always on the right side and trying to narrow down the exact spot or range that you need to be in to get them to do what you want.
The last thing is that in mame using the cheat of invincibility so that I don't have to worry about hitting cars and just staying on the road I have discovered that after you have been going at full speed for a certain amount of time you will sometimes get a super burst of speed. This speed only seems to cause the cars and track to wiz by really fast like 2x faster. It doesn't last very long, maybe 1/4 second or something like that. That got me thinking that if it can happen in mame it might also happen in the real game. If so that would be something to explore even more.
Figuring though that for the life and amount of games played someone would have said something about that long ago so it's probably just a mame thing.
One other thing to try and manipulate on a real machine is the rumored, "put your foot under the gas and lift up on it to go even faster". You should be able to do this by resetting your machine and before it resets and reads the position of the gas peddle, push it down 1/4 or 1/2 or 1/3 or whatever until it resets fully. Then try playing a game and see if you can go faster by lifting up on the gas. Usually though from past experience this yields slower acceleration. But who knows if enough people try maybe someone will discover something new and interesting.
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This is all really fascinating info, John, thanks for posting all of this. I think Pole Position is one of the best classic games of its era for precisely the reasons you're uncovering now. There's so much to the scoring and the margins are razor thin at the upper echelons. It's also maybe the best tournament game ever.
Last night it took me quite a while to warm up as I was coming off of a full day of work and a complex band rehearsal. It took me a full hour to even get warmed up and even then I was only able to manage a single crashless race at 64950. I did have a 63700 with a crash on the final turn (!) which would have probably been a 65100 without. I'm getting more consistent on my first lap but my last three laps still leave a whole lot to be desired.
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Thanks for responding I was hopeful you would. :D
Again this is I assume on your cabinet?
Yes, the 67,010 score was on my cabinet.
I don't know what happened to the Video Paradise cabinet from the 80's, although the owner of the arcade claims that he can identify it by the location of a hole drilled in the back.
I said im skeptical because well frankly you and Les both get the BEST run of your lives in the same tournament on the SAME cabinet?
I know that I had a few other games with 213.xx times before the contest at Space Shuttle, I'm not sure about Les.
We were at the top of our game at that time. It does not surprise me that's when we both achieved our best score.
When we met again at CAX a few years ago, Les did say that he had not played since the contest, so he retired in July 1984.
The machines at CAX were in bad shape, so no serious play was done that day.
Did you get these 67,260 scores on a different Pole Position cabinet or just your cabinet?
My 213.xx times were all played on that one cabinet from the Video Paradise arcade.
My best on my personal machine is 67,010.
Do either of you have a video you made getting 67k+ scores in the last 30+ years?
No. I did record some games back then with a dedicated camera (this was before camcorders), but the tapes have been lost to time. If I had recorded a 213.xx time, I believe that I would have kept the tape.
All other games recorded since then that were short of a high score have not been kept.
My point was perhaps there was an issue with the cabinet and you could go a little faster than normal?
It was a factory machine, like any other. I do get lap times of 52'20 on my personal machine, so I have every reason to believe there is not something unique about the Video Paradise machine.
Early romset issue? Bad rom due to a power surge?
As far as I know, there are not multiple romsets, and that the Video Paradise machine did not suffer any malfunctions.
I'm certain you are very good at this game and I'm sorry I'm so skeptical but way to many of these 80's scores with this exact type of scenario (no videos and and no one else has come close to this score in 30+ years) have ended up being false but I do appreciate you coming in an discussing it here and posting the photos! I'm just a bit of a cynic about these things nothing personal for sure :D
Video recording was rare for the early 80's.
The high scores were done at an official Guinness site, witnessed by a TG referee, and are within a few percent of widely accepted previous scores by me and Les... but it seems nothing short of a video will be convincing evidence for you.
I need to figure out how to just TAS this thing and be done with it.
Hey! Don't call John a Tool ;)
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I've gone back and forth a few times over those 2 scores. My first thoughts were that they were impossible, anyone that was good at Pole couldn't even get close to those scores. Did research and asked questions and then I was in the yes it can be done. Then did more research and testing and playing and was back at it's impossible with today's machines. It had to be some other rom or a prototype machine. Now even after more research, questions, testing, answers and such I'm on the strong side of those scores are legit. I'm finding out through the above stuff and more communication with Michael that they were very hardcore into Pole and they put the time and effort into getting better and better. So if I've never said it before I'll say it now, The Pole records are as close to perfection as one can get to maxing out a game so early in it's history.
The Pole II score though I still highly question with all the research that I have put into it and now Pole I.
Anyways thanks Michael for filling in questions and stuff about the scores and some of the history of the scores. Hopefully some of the info that I have provided has been new to you and will help in your quest to break the record.
I hope soon that we can get a video of you playing, or even better yet of you breaking the record.
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they were very hardcore into Pole
Good heavens
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Great news gents.
Not only was I able to get a new pb/house record of 65,810 tonight, but somehow I unlocked the entirely left lane car sequence. Any guesses on exactly how? I wasn't trying to do it, and I don't know how I did it. Also, given that I GOT it, I ran an embarrassing display of a first lap with that sequence :P
Also, I didn't realize that the time doesn't exactly equal seconds until tonight. Pretty hilarious, since it's really obvious and not even close.
lap times as best as I can extrapolate (no split times on display :( )
57.62
53.54
53.66
54.47
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Wow sick run!! Is that left side only sequence possible on later laps?
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Wow sick run!! Is that left side only sequence possible on later laps?
Thanks! From what I understand from what John said above, I triggered the pattern of the first lap from the qualifying lap finish somehow
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In all three of these runs (my 65,810, Gorz' previous GGA house high of 65,600, and Richie's 66,510), there seems to be one less car passed in my manual count than the count displayed
I have 135 for both Gorz and I, and 137 for Richie. The game seems to tally one extra car for all of us. I've counted several times several different ways..
In the MAME run
The tally and manual count are both 138..
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Awesome stuff. Can't compare with you guys but had 61,570 tonight with a single crash (first complete run for me). Still learning :D I'm using a mouse for steering. What kind of controls do you guys use for mame?
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Did some more thinking about this and some research.
Getting the car setup is the key to getting the fast times. I've seen enough game play that getting all the cars in the left lane is a must. Now with your video, all cars on the left, Richies 75% of cars on the left, and some other videos with 75% or cars on the left, I know it can be done.
The next question is can it be done on all laps or just the 1st lap. I believe those cars for the most part stay in the left lane throughout the game and as cars are added into the mix it sometimes makes them shift to the right lane. Just need to keep trying to figure out how to manipulate the car setup so that it can be done with more consistency.
Your 65810 game was a good one and thanks for sharing. Couple of notes, you need to get more into the inside of those turns. You hit 1 puddle that could have been avoided but I saw that you had your sights on the finish line so I'll let you slide this time. Hairpin turns were pretty good. The 1st turn of the laps though you were sloppy and way to slow. Clean up those and you will be in the low 66k range in no time. Hope to get more video of your new high scores.
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John - Thanks for the feedback, sir! I agree that I need to avoid that puddle and fight to the inside more. I watch the vid and I am aggravated that I was 3 tenths of a "second" from 66k...On that last puddle, I was worried about getting realigned properly in the middle for that last stretch in traffic...I've had a lot of situations cutting out and back that I've crashed and I just knew I needed to finish...
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By just reading this thread, I was able to up my high score from 62,400 to 63,810 (should have been higher because I ran off track on the last turn). Thanks guys!
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The Namco version boardset has different car patterns and I believe is an easier version of the game. The cars migrate towards the center of the road and allow you to pass them on the inside or outside and if your in a corner going on the inside will net you a faster time.
That was definitely the case with the MAME run that bestcellar posted... I'll need to look at Richie's run again to confirm that is the case.
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Hmmm... not sure about Richie's run.
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Great thread, very informative. I've been planning to get a spinner and finally did with mini wheel, as this is one of the games I wanted to play on MAME. It's been very enjoyable thus far, finally made it to the 2nd checkpoint with a pb of 42,100 last night. Definitely have to fight for the inside, sometimes it's hard to take the risk in a challenging situation, risking a crash. I don't boast much experience on this game but it's been fun playing and learning and if I have any information to add I certainly will.
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New PB qualifying lap 55.16
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It looks like it was 55.16. 8)
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John thats an amazing qualifying lap!
I have gotten a bit better and now have 6 complete races - unfortunately all with crashes in them so no giant score yet.
Did a lot of savestate-testing on what crossing the finishing line do to the car pattern in the upcoming race while using starting pattern B (the one started from the attract screen). So far I have come to the belief that the finishing line only “carry over†two kinds of patterns. A left one and a right one (the exact spot for the right one to be trickered seem to be when plenty more than half of your car is on the right lane). The qualifying time seem to have an effect too. Not in what pattern you will get in the race but in how far the the other cars have traversed in that pattern before you start (like if you wait a few seconds before starting your qualifying lap). That make it seem like there is plenty more patterns than there is. There are probably other randomizers (for the White cars?) than the finishing line though. However I did test whether gear, gas pedel or brake had an effect while crossing the finishing line and came to the conclusion they did not (besides the already mentioned timing of the pattern).
I hope the above make sense. Can any of you prove me right or wrong it will be great help in uncovering more secrets.
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Coming out of the first turn in the game if you touch both sides of the road or yellow strip the cars for the remainder of that lap will be spread out and closer to the edges of the road. So the first corner is to the right, make sure you are touching the yellow strip at some point before it ends and then cross the road in the straight away and touch the left hand side and then your set.
Can you show a demo of this since I can not activate any difference - at least not on the B-pattern?
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Pattern B or the demo setup doesn't allow for manipulation like A or map setup. I tried lot's of times and couldn't do much that I noticed.
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Some new faster qualifying times.
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Great times John! Achieved a pb tonight of 60,140, haven't really gotten in depth with strats, just trying to get acclimated and finish my 1st race which I almost accomplished on that pb run. More practice is in order.
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Whats that 67010 on your machine John? :)
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Don't worry about that look at this.
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Whats the significance of a fast qualifying time?
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Practice makes better. Learning how to qualify faster helps with later in the race.
Watch this video, first turn hype at 244 and no skidding. Michael said he has never seen it before so teaching a master something new is so rewarding.
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Interesting article: https://www.twingalaxies.com/feed_details.php/2070/the-live-threat-the-difference-between-score-chasing-and-tournament-play/14
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Found a new trick on the qualifying lap. Reset the game and allow the game to progress through play until it comes back to the track map and then start a game. It doesn't always work yet, maybe do to how you drive at a certain spot after the first turn.
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Yeah trick works every time through the first turn and hairpin but then after they sometimes get back into the right lane but not this time.
55.03 qualifying lap, this is the 3rd or 4th time I've had this time, had a 55.02 once. I'm gonna get a sub 55 eventually.
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Oooh look at what I did :)
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Equals 67210?!?!
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Those are some really badass lap times John.
That trick doesnt seem to work on mame. Is it supposed to be consistent by starting from the 2nd map screen?
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Yeah trying to get better qualifying lap times has helped me improve the real race laps by getting to the inside more often and for longer periods.
Hmmm can't get trick to work anymore, must have been a fluke.
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Ok. Had a new 64k PB-game with a single crash in one of the hairpins tonight. Also had a PB qualifying lap of 55.48. Getting better.
Been testing the Namco og Atari version and really dont believe there is a difference in gameplay. However the patterns can normally be activated in the aforemensioned ways BUT once in a blue moon that same way is activating a different pattern. Still not sure what trickers it.
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Those points is really <confused>. On arcade I can only find finishing points (before bonus points) of 54,010 with 10 "mystery points" like in Richies run.
Those mystery points in Mame however is by far not as standard as saying 70 points per lap. Look at the points given in my first crashless run of today on wolfmame 1.99:
(http://a68.tinypic.com/alj9z4.jpg)
Final score 65,000.
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oh and I passed 3 less cars in this pb run than in my last much slower finish with a crash in it...
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Upped my high score to 64,410 this week... I still have a tendency to oversteer when avoiding cars in the turns and sometimes skid in the first turn. I just need to clean a few things up and should hopefully get into the 65s soon.
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Scored 63,500 tonight... which included one crash! (Actually had five or so games between 63,200 and 63,500 tonight with one crash... I guess I play tight then relax after I f-up a game with a crash.)
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Go Verminator, sir!
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Finally got 66k by the skin of my teeth a couple weeks ago. Very consistently getting 65.5-65.6. Only gotten 65.8 once and 66.0 once so far. Hey John, with BOTA coming up will we see multiple 66s in that tourney for the first time ever?
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Probably not, I most likely won't even get 66k, haven't played the game in months.
66k takes some solid practice to get and most of us that are playing in BOTA won't be putting in that kind of practice. We'll just get a nice 65,xxx and move on to the other games.
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Just wanted to chime in, this is a great thread! I've read through it many times. I'm getting very close to cracking in to the 214's. The very first post is interesting, I've run a 55.82 first lap so it looks like if I go 1 hundreth faster it will knock the lap time down to 55.71? If true that could be very helpful! Im trying to attach some times I ran a few days ago and my PB is 215.15 so far.
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So I did it and I don't really know why... I ran a 55.71, but in slowing down the video it clearly shows I'm at least 55.79 before the finish line.. which looks like an available ending score. Did I run a 55.81 but it jumped to 55.71 due to the programming? and If I had actually run a 55.79 that would have stood? What is going on?
Here's attachments of 55.71 after finish line and getting extended play.
A screen shot of 55.79 right before the finish line.
And here's a link to the youtube video.
weird stuff!
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Will never have to worry about the world record being broken on this game since IMO its pretty much impossible and you will never see a video of anyone getting that score ever. Funny how they were godlike in the 80s and yet in the entire time of having video neither one of the amazing duo posts video of a score that is even close and just says "do better" when you question it. All these legendary gamers can still put up WR scores and actually play better now than they did back then but when you question anyone of these "impossible" scores they can never seem to get that score funny how that works huh? Whatever i gave up on this one a while ago.
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Remember it goes 78 79 70 71 then 82 83 84 85 so nothing new. Just think of it as 0-9 = 10 frames and each time it goes back to 0 or 1 or whatever that it's another 10 frames, once you reach 99 and it goes to 0 you just ran 40 frames or 1 game second.
Wow that is a fast first lap, at the rate you're going I'm guessing you will be hitting the 67k soon if not already.
The only other research I've done lately is to play around with revisions of the game. I'm trying to mix and match versions so that I get the game play from the Namco board set but with the graphics from Atari rom sets. I'm thinking that since they had to change the graphics to be politically correct that they might have put out a rom revision to do that and in order to work with a certain board type they might have changed the code in order to do so. I think that you can somehow use the Namco game play with the Atari graphics and if so the game would be a little easier to get higher scores. The difference is that the car patterns are different and you can pass on the inside much easier than the current atari only versions.
Keep playing and updating us with your fantastic game play.
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Just wanted to chime in, this is a great thread! I've read through it many times. I'm getting very close to cracking in to the 214's. The very first post is interesting, I've run a 55.82 first lap so it looks like if I go 1 hundreth faster it will knock the lap time down to 55.71? If true that could be very helpful! Im trying to attach some times I ran a few days ago and my PB is 215.15 so far.
Some of the qualifying times posted in this thread are insane! I have only been sub-56 a handful of times.
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(https://i.imgur.com/bpQh0zW.jpg)
Ran these scores just last week. 62,310 can be done,.. you just have to be perfect.
Here's my first 66,910 run, and my third lap was trash. I've run 55.70 first laps, 52.21 mid laps and 52.99 last lap.. just not all in the same race :) It is really really... really difficult to get those lap times, let alone all at once.. but I'm still practicing!
Still 3rd at Twin Galaxies, but I've closed the gap from the old 3rd place to the record by half.
https://www.twingalaxies.com/game/pole-position/arcade/fuji-speedway-points/page/1?ref=fbshare
According to Video Paradise and TG records in 1983, it took Mike and Les a year to go from 66,710 to the records. That should show how incredibly difficult those high scores are!!! Records were set 6-27-84 and 7-1-84, those scores are from June of '83.
(https://i.imgur.com/zluRs9F.jpg)
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Well it is worth discussing that top 2 scores of all time were done in the SAME tournament, over the same weekend, on the SAME pole position cabinet and no one has managed to come close in over 34+ years. I dont quite understand how going faster would somehow gain you the ability to pass a bunch of extra cars and I also find it odd that we still dont have a single video of a 67k+ score from either of these two guys in 35+ years (Well none that I have seen or are aware of)? Kinda the same questions I had with Mr Rodgers scores in that there is a lot of talk but no video? At least perhaps that PP cabinet was off perhaps just like how mame scores that 350 extra points? Basically to me anymore if there is no video I just dont believe any of the scores from the 80s. Way to many folks been caught flat out lying and the history of how those scores got into TG from 1500points makes it all suspect. :)
Well now there is one video of a 67k score, mine. And my first lap was trash too, still room for improvement!
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Wow holy smoke congrats Daniel!! This is huge!
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What a run! Fantastic, just imagine if the first lap had been perfect too... so good.
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What a run! Fantastic, just imagine if the first lap had been perfect too... so good.
Wow holy smoke congrats Daniel!! This is huge!
Thanks for the kind words! I'm still getting better. Ran a 52.02 2nd lap today, I used to think 212.99 was completely impossible.. now I'm not so sure. but that might be the only way to actually beat the record. I don't know if passing 143 cars at 213.xx is possible, time will tell. but...
My lap times were 55.15, 52.46, 52.64, 52.71 = 213.96 the computer only added .39 to my score to get 214.35 game time. So...
If you combined my current best laps ever of 55.70, 52.02, 52.35 52.71 = 212.78 + .39 = 213.17 If i can shave another .2 off maybe, just maybe a 67,410 would be possible?..? Im dreaming, but I now know it's not totally impossible.
(https://i.imgur.com/dJHVPSj.jpg)
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Wow, first person in about 35 years to get 67,000. Very awesome job!
Also, thanks for basically confirming that the world record score is possible. I know some thought it was impossible to get 67,310.
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Absolutely incredible run!!! Congratulations!!! Thank you so much for posting your progress as well.
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I was gonna post a video but I didn't bring my SD card to the library. Let the anticipation build :)
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<popcorn>
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omg.
I've been grinding Pole for a couple of months, so I'm hot for any news!
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Ok here it is the fastest time I have ever done. This is without cars and it's still super hard to get a good time. Now add cars and it just got even harder. I think that it comes down to 2 key things. The first turn after the start finish line, if you go below 230 or so you can kiss your game goodbye. The hairpin turn doesn't seem to be as critical as the 1st turn but if you go off road too long or skid 1/10 of a second too long kiss it goodbye. Still working on some numbers and such but this is what I'm coming up with.
We still have a few things to figure out like more about controlling the cars and where they are on the track. In order to pass just a couple more cars isn't just all about time and speed, it also needs to take account of where you and they are on the road and if you can put them into better spots so that you can pass the pack of cars quicker. Sometimes the cars clump together, 4 for lap 1, 5 for lap 2, and 6 for lap 3 and I'm really not sure about the last lap, working on other ideas to have noticed that yet. Sometimes they spread out and in order for more cars to come out you have to pass the last car in a group before they start appearing again, not exactly but mostly.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=190EZKOFlXcd4HAg9Guh4AMux6jHQ2Wzi
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Awesome thanks John. Basically again there is no way I believe they got those scores back then. Someone trying and trying and trying to get in the 212.99 range is ridiculous. This is like Missile Command all over. Someone will FINALLY do it and then "See told you they did". Yeah well they could have just DONE IT and shown someone a video anytime in the last oh I dunno 30 years. Daniels 67,010 is sweet and Richie mentioned he was in the 67k club as well in his youtube comments. You really think you are going to pass 3 more cars getting into the 213 range or someone have some MIRACLE 1 in a million run where they get 212.99? I just don't see it happening. Adding up best times EVER still is in the 213 range so you need the luck of the cars and that is entirely too random. What it shows is that you cannot drive in the 213 range at will. You would need to have EVERY run be in the 213 in order to get that miracle car total IMO. Daniel actually had a FASTER time than his 67k score but he passed TWO less cars. (213.34 was 66910 while 213.35 was 67010). Going 1 more second faster may get you only 1 more car most likely and you may not get ANY more cars. Heck what if you end up getting two less cars? So now your at 67,110?? Imagine that. You have the run of your LIFE and you only get 67,110 or just 67,210. How long do you grind away to try and get 3 more magic cars to get that 67,360? Anyone here really thinksthey are going to put together 4 perfect laps WITH CARS and break 212.99? If you do then AMAZING and I'm happy for you but doesnt change my opinion at all about what happened in the past. I would love to see those scores knocked down tho. Keep grinding. If I get an opportunity to TAS this or even get a cabinet who knows PP is fun. Not sure I have the skills to actually do this but its fun.
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Ok, first, as one of the top 3 pole position players ever, they got those scores. But that doesn't matter, everybody is totally entitled to their opinion.
Second. Pole Position is an insanely hard game. If I ask, can someone get the most possible points on the first screen of donkey kong over and over again, the answer is probably yes. You only move a joystick and push a button. It can be copied. The controls of Pole Position are so fine that replicating exactly even the qualifying lap is impossible. Let alone the actual race! Put the car exactly, I mean exactly where it was on the previous attempt while keeping the speed at exactly the same, and finishing with exactly the same time is impossible... Then a few of the cars move randomly throughout the entire game! So a race can't be copied.. you just have to get good, really really good. So asking someone to copy an entire race is completely impossible.
Third. The scoring isn't the same in every game either. As was said, I got times within 1/100 of each other and passed 2 more cars in the slower race.. 67,010 for a time of 214.35 passing 140 cars... but I also got a 66,810, with a time of 215.49 and passed 140 cars. So that is over a second slower and still passed 140 cars! I wish I was their age when they played, they got to play all day every day, heck Mike worked at the arcade. I try and get some playing time a few times a week.. no wonder they got so good!
Keep up the good work Johnny! The game is so perfect any information that can be added to figuring it out is extremely helpful!
Here's a video of my 52.03 2nd lap with cars in a real race. Fastest real race 2nd lap ever on video.
I've only been playing since March of 2019 (this year) and I'm still getting better every time! Mike and Les took over a year to go from 66,710 to the records... I've been playing less than 8 months. Takes time to get good at anything!
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You only move a joystick and push a button. It can be copied.
<popcorn>
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You only move a joystick and push a button. It can be copied.
<popcorn>
Haha! ok, I'll take the heat on that comparison, especially considering the forum lol. How about a less 'random' game pacman etc.. my point is that poleposition is probably the game that is most impossible to copy a previous play due to the controls, or least forgiving anyways. If you make the tiniest of wrong moves in most games you can recover and still get max points etc.. If you rub a car on a corner you lose time that you can't ever get back.
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Haha! ok, I'll take the heat on that comparison, especially considering the forum lol. How about a less 'random' game pacman etc..
No heat necessary, you backed off just in time. ;D
my point is that poleposition is probably the game that is most impossible to copy a previous play due to the controls, or least forgiving anyways.
This is one of (several) reasons why MAME PP vs. arcade PP will always be very apples and oranges (not just the "phantom points" thing). I'm not even convinced that MAME renders the steering the same way - I've noticed that arcade players seem to be able to routinely make that first-corner turn which, at the same speed, seems to be impossible on MAME without skidding unless you touch the edge (though of course with MAME there are a thousand combinations of input device + analog settings, and one of those thousand combos might do the trick).
I've been intrigued by your setup/calibration in particular. I've watched all of your runs, and you nail that skid-free first turn every time!
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Wow I wish I could do the lap times you have been putting up. I really need access to a machine so that I can try to duplicate what you are doing. You make it look so easy lap after lap. If and when you tie the record we will take Mikes suggestion and petition TG to include a time so that you have the record.
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Wow I wish I could do the lap times you have been putting up. I really need access to a machine so that I can try to duplicate what you are doing. You make it look so easy lap after lap. If and when you tie the record we will take Mikes suggestion and petition TG to include a time so that you have the record.
That would be cool for sure! and Yes, I wish you could find a game or have access to one too. I'm sure with more practice you'd be up here too, no doubt.
I agree about mame not running the game correctly. I've seen it on my buddy's mame and it just feels off.
As far as the turns or my lap times, it is just practice. But also learning from the practice. How far you can dive into a turn, and where the apex is depending on the line you took so you know when to slightly let off so not to skid. What makes this game so awesome and infuriating is that no matter how much you practice, where I'm at now, it doesn't matter unless you're practicing at wr speed.
It's like this, I can run 66.710 in my sleep now (29 time left), but getting a 30 time left is still hard, I only do like a couple every time I play. The only way I get good practice is during one of the 30 time left runs. The cars start appearing sooner and different patterns in the corners than if I'm going even 1 second slower. So the practice on a 28 or 29 time left run doesn't apply to a 30 or 31 time left run. ex. where I'm stuck now. Hairpin on lap 3... on a 29 run, I can usually slide in just behind the 2 lead cars in that pack, no problem.. but If I have great laps and I'm on a 30-31 run, when I get to that hairpin I will run right into the lead cars, they are just a little sooner in the turn. If I avoid them by cutting the corner more, or going outside on the slide I lose way too much time... so there has to be a way to get them more spread out. Something I'm doing up to that point is usually putting them side by side.. I'm working on seeing what affect some changes have to that. But again I can only try it when I have crazy good laps. Frustrating!
Anyways, I'm glad I can write about this stuff here, my wife still isn't a huge fan of discussing pole position strategy believe it or not ;D ;D ;D
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Love the strategy and specifics here, also its interesting the turns are programmed at an angle i believe like nascar tracks but the game displays a flat horizontal track cross section.
Very interesting game, my PP2 cab needs a bunch of work, im deconverting it from a switching power mod someone did so i can use the ARII's for sound again; hoping i figure it out so i can play PP at home not just the local arcade.
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I came across 2 Namco PP boardsets the other day, looking forward to fixing them if need be and then playing them.
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I came across 2 Namco PP boardsets the other day, looking forward to fixing them if need be and then playing them.
That's awesome you found some! I've been keeping my eye out and haven't seen any. Would be cool to play a namco board someday.
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I can't believe how close I am... and yet so freaking Stuck on lap 3 at the same time.
Ran this today 214.21 (Need 214.00 or lower to be in the wr zone)
1st lap: 55.82 (fastest ever 55.70)
2nd lap: 52.17 (fastest ever 52.02)
3rd lap: 52.99 (fastest ever 52.35)
4th lap: 52.83 (fastest ever 52.71)
I'm getting better times on the last lap where the stupid computer slows your car down than on the 3rd lap! Can Not Figure It OUT! The trouble spot is the right turn before the hairpin.. and the hairpin. Something I'm doing during the beginning of lap 3 up to that point is putting almost all the cars on the inside of that turn like over 90% of the time. I can't get to the inside.. which kills my time.. and if I don't get inside there, then the cars in the hairpin are side by side which also kills time and my car. If I can just figure out how to at least even them out, get a few on the left, I can make the inside. I'm thinking it has to do with the first turn of lap 3. That's the 2nd tightest turn on the track and cars move around depending on how you take that first turn. Just venting.. good news is I'm running the first 2 laps at WR speed fairly regularly. If I can get this 3rd lap thing down, I'm gonna have a shot.
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Got another 67k. Tons of mistakes, but decided to keep this one. No 10 extra points either..
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Finally ran my first 213 last night! Got 67,160 and Barely squeaked in with a 213.97 Bad news I only passed 139 cars. On the high score board you can see I passed 140 going a full second slower. Just happened to not have the good starting pattern with the cars closer together at the beginning. Now that I've broken through the barrier, I'm sure I can run some more 213.xx games. Gonna take some time, but this might actually happen! It is funny at the end of the race my wife and daughter run down thinking I got the record lol. Not yet...
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My wife is my biggest supporter and my harshest critic. She likes to yell "Don't embarrass me!" and "Don't suck"at gaming events or when I stream. And when I suck she yells "Typical!....YOU SUCK! I said don't embarrass me!" It's all in good fun. She knows I think it's funny. It's all good cuz she accepts what I do.
Keep up the grind and remember....DON'T SUCK!!
Hec
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(https://i.imgur.com/J4rmLsA.jpg)
Starting to figure out how the passing cars thing works. I believe it is predetermined at the beginning of the race. I synced up a video where I pass 39 cars and 40 cars. That top image is the 40 car race, the bottom is 39 cars. (this is the first turn of lap 1 in the main race) You can see that white car is closer to me (therefore I pass it sooner) than in the bottom picture. That keeps increasing throughout the race. The other cars are almost exactly in the same spot in both videos and don't really change, but that single white car keeps appearing sooner and sooner in the top race than in the bottom. I'm sure cornering and if you touch the sides affects it, and speed of course because you have to get a 213.xx anyways.. but I've been trying to do things in qualifying that gets that front white car as close to my car as possible on that first turn. So I've had races with 214.97 times that have passed 40 and if I had gone a second faster I believe I would have passed car 41 and maybe 42.. 43? But as in my 67,160 video I ran a 213.97 and passed 39 almost 40 without the help of that white car being closer to me.
So that has brought me to a crappy conclusion. The 4 car pattern where they are 2 by 2 side by side might be the way to pass 142 cars... unfortunately it is the hardest pattern in the game at least until they spread out a little bit. Sometimes I get the (3 on the left 1 on the right) pattern really bunched close together but it seems very rare. Just doing some thinking out loud. John if you have any thoughts please chime in!
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I'm still working on your last race, I got all the times in. And I just started to analyze when and how you pass cars. So I've documented where and when you pass cars for you last race. I'm going to do the same with another of your races and see if I can come up with anything.
I did start to think more and more about this. I went back and found 2 races of mine done with the no crash rom. I found one where I count 140 cars, I go back and check again, 3 times I do it with different methods but yet the game says I passed 141. The other one with about the same time I only pass 138 cars. So I've been mapping those games out, will take another week or so.
I did notice while doing this that there is one car that you pass sooner and sooner each appearance of the group. So as you know there is a 4 car grouping on the first lap and each additional lap they add one more car to that group. Well when counting cars by group and you use the last car in the group to keep track of how many cars you pass you start to notice that the first car in the group is getting closer and closer to the last car in the group. So we may have stumbled on this at the same time.
At some time I was looking really close at the cars and noticed that the cars being white and orange that they also have another color on them. So there might be 2 or 3 versions of those cars meaning they have white with red or blue stripe and maybe even another color, I'll check on this more tonight. And the first car that they add is I think Red but not sure, again have to check that out.
Now the question is can you manipulate any of this, can you make the 1st or 2nd car that appear on the next lap appear in a certain lane or closer or further. I did notice that if in the hairpin turn if you get ahead of all 4 cars you are going to pass more cars or that's my first impression at least.
On other issues that I have started to notice but not might be anything. On certain parts of the track the score will jump 10 points or 20 points depending on how you look at it. Meaning usually it takes a certain amount of frames in order to score 10 or 20 points but at these points in the track you seem to score faster than normal. It's almost like there is an error in the track and these usually appear in the turns and I notice them when you turn into the turn trying to get to the side, not always but this seems to be where it happens most often. In my doings I've notice that you are also saving 1 frame here and there in some parts of the game, I can't really explain what I mean by this yet.
Anyway something to try and don't have to get a good score or time to test this theory is to pass all cars on the right or the left and see what happens. Meaning if you have to go off road or go to the outside of a turn to do it do it anyways. Other thing to try to do is pass the last car in the group and or always try to be in the same lane coming up to the start/finish line. This test will see if we can make the next car they are putting into the group after another lap is completed if we can manipulate it into a certain lane.
Your hairpin turns are even better than they were just a week ago.
Losing 3-4 miles because you pass too close or hit the rumble strip only seems to add maybe 1-2 frames onto your time, this isn't confirmed yet.
It might be faster to hit the puddle on the big turn that it is to go on the outside, not 100% sure on this yet but I got good reason to think it's true.
I think this is true and confirmed as I've had 2 instances of it but not sure what the true place is. If you get along side a car at the finish it counts as passing it, not sure if it is any part, middle, or ahead but it seems that passing the wheel is good enough.
That's all that I have today :)
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Really curious to see what you come up analyzing those races! Great info in your last post!
I did try to pass all on the right, but obviously kept running into the centipede sign in the hairpin, I tried all left and I didn't notice any difference really in where cars appeared or how they moved overall. I don't notice differences from crossing the finish line on different sides either. Just the usual randomness. I'm starting to think it has something to do with the corners, I know in the hairpin depending on how I cut the corner and when I end up on the right I get a different line up at the 2nd puddle depending on if I touch the yellow line immediately after the hairpin on the right, or if I just stay on the road after the hairpin. (not the rumble strip just the yellow) and it's a better pattern touching it. If I don't touch it all the cars but one are on the right (inside) If I do, they are right,left, right, left.. It is predictable about 80% of the time.
I ran a really weird one the other day. The cars were SUPER early. The pic is at the exact score/time place on the track as the other 2 pics, but that white car on the left is the front car of the pack on the first turn. I ended up with a sad 215.53 but passed 40 cars, for a super rare 66,810.
Unfortunately I can't duplicate how close or far the first car is with any reliability at all. Always look forward to your insights and ideas John!
(https://i.imgur.com/32qvQub.jpg)
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Hey anyone need some Namco Pole Position boards repaired, I've got 4 set's I'm working on right now so now is a good time to get your boards fixed. Cost is probably around 100-200 depending on condition and extent of fixing.
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Hadn't played in a week and clicked off a 54.99 qualify lap tonight! I'm pretty sure I'm not the first, but still pretty cool to see!
(https://i.imgur.com/lWUFUZV.jpg)
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I would say that it is probably the first, I haven't even done it with no cars and no crash. I'ts not something that can be done by someone that isn't playing to get the record that's for sure. When you are playing for score you usually don't try so hard on the qualifying lap as you are saving it for the race.
I'm still working on the data of your 213 and 214 and I added in a 217 time just to see what is happening with the cars and why you can pass 136-143 cars with any of the above times. Should have this done later this week, got busy "lazy" the last week.
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I'm still working on the data of your 213 and 214 and I added in a 217 time just to see what is happening with the cars and why you can pass 136-143 cars with any of the above times. Should have this done later this week, got busy "lazy" the last week.
I'm really interested to see what you come up with! Do you think it will end up as just an analysis of how the game works and how those particular races were scored, raced, etc... ? Or will the data show places of the track where I"m losing time/gaining time etc.. and possibly how hitting the bricks in the corners can bring the cars closer/farther to you, etc..? Either way, Can't wait!
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Well here is the spreadsheet that I have so far, just look at the last 3 races, some of the info before all that is and was random stuff from previous races.
Feel free to do anything you want to this spreadsheet to make it better.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/10wvZkRzJq6A_IXnIiKoSTCNfzBZp_ax-/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/10wvZkRzJq6A_IXnIiKoSTCNfzBZp_ax-/view?usp=sharing)
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Well here is the spreadsheet that I have so far, just look at the last 3 races, some of the info before all that is and was random stuff from previous races.
Feel free to do anything you want to this spreadsheet to make it better.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/10wvZkRzJq6A_IXnIiKoSTCNfzBZp_ax-/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/10wvZkRzJq6A_IXnIiKoSTCNfzBZp_ax-/view?usp=sharing)
Wow! Awesome work!!! That's a Ton of information, speed, time, cars passed, what side, location on track, etc.. so good! I just started looking at it while matching up areas in the race video. Very cool to be able to see how much time I'm losing going outside a car vs. inside etc.. And it is odd the places where I seem to gain a screen, I def. will have to spend some time and see if I can see any patterns as to why I pass the number of cars that I do. I'm still convinced it all begins at the start of the race, but maybe there's something in the data that will show how/when/why the extra cars spawn. Thanks for putting this together and posting it!!!
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Did some more data entry of a different type. Logged every car into position and time on track as it was passed. Was wondering about the cars and why when you count them yourself you will come up with a different number than what the game says. I was trying to figure out where that other car passed from comes from. Still can't figure it out though but am guessing it comes from the pole 2 car, your in first and the car in second maybe gets counted sometimes????????
Found that the hairpin turn causes numbers to be skewed all over the place, causing a car that should be coming up soon to be way late or sometimes way early. I haven't looked into it yet much, just only noticed and highlighted it.
Had two charts going on paper and it made me think of some other stuff. I wanted to know if any of the cars were faster or slower than others. Don't know the answer to this yet.
It also looks like maybe crossing the finish line causes cars to move around, this might be more about the new car being added though. The new car gets added into the mix around 5500, add in 2,3,or 4 depending on lap. This seems to push the cars that should be coming up next even further back.
Some cars change lanes more often than others and some seem to not ever change lanes.
I believe that the hairpin turn might have the most influence upon the cars, sooner, later, or changing lanes.
I did 3 races 2 with passing 140 cars and times around 214, the 3rd race was for a time of 219 and passing 136 cars. I still need to get in and look at the data to see if it's just a certain place on the track that the lead car will appear again whether you are fast or slow it might just always appear at a certain time. I don't know what the real cause of passing cars is about, 5 seconds difference and only 3-4 cars less has to mean something.
I'm running out of ideas and thoughts on how this game functions and if it can be manipulated to produce more passed cars, any input and help would be helpful.
Here is link to same sheet with updated info, see each car sheet.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cVVtUDd7smoSX53Z6oY34msZvgeOEpdT (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1cVVtUDd7smoSX53Z6oY34msZvgeOEpdT)
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Found this in an old magazine online whilst laughing at some of the other scores
Not sure if new/relevant/helpful but thought I'd post anyway :)
(https://imgur.com/nOMtDsB.png)
Edit: Date listed as N/A on that pic, this one is from a different source:
(https://imgur.com/xgl5Enc.png)
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curious if anyone can somewhat give a rough estimate what my high score for an official 4 lap race is on 3 lap settings? My local arcade has it on 3 and I have 50,100. Been trying to crack 50k for awhile now. I'm guessing relative to keeping up speed and passing cars at the same rate about 64k at least.
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Thanks for the info Barra, it will come in handy in the future.
Bliss, for a 4 lap official race your score should be around 65k with no crashes.
Anyone want code for no cars on the track, or no crashing into cars, and if you want I can even burn them and send them in the mail for $10. Only 1 rom needed per mod.
PM me with your address, version you have, you can tell by the chip either saying for version 1 103 and 104, or version 2 203 and 204. If no labels then you can tell by the screen.
Atari version 1 says 1982 Atari Inc
Atari version 2 says Manufactured by Atari 1982
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What would you do, had this happen a few times and it really ruins a race.
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I would have tried to go between the left and middle cars, had a fiery crash and then blamed the game for my poor decisions.
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try this. 8) Skip to :52 since imbedding it to start there didn't work.
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Wait a minute wheres my anti car turret located.
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What would you do, had this happen a few times and it really ruins a race.
I'd guess that race was coined up from the title screen immediately after a reset. I tried that for awhile and I couldn't handle the crazy randomness that would sometimes happen... like that. But that may be where you have to start to get 142 cars.
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I totally missed the TG poll/post, Congrats Johnny Mac for being the First to get a 54.96 Qualify lap on Pole Position!
(https://i.imgur.com/4K8azQz.png)
Right there with you though!
(https://i.imgur.com/2FxJuJv.jpg)
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More qualifying fun.
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Hey! you got another tick. Nice!
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Well here we go boys and girls. A 213.70, Now it's all about the cars.. or is it? Ran this today and it's my personal best. 67,210. But I messed up on the 2nd lap and that 52.02 is the 3rd! So now, If you put my best times for each lap together it starts to get interesting. My best for each lap are: 1st 55.66 2nd 52.02 3rd 52.02 4th 52.70. Adding them up equals 212.40 then add the .5 or so that gets added into your final time and it's looking like it's possible for a 212.99/213.00 Which would blow 67,310 away. But my god that would have to be an actual perfect run... either way, gotta keep playing!
(https://i.imgur.com/LgBPxtH.jpg)
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Wow, congrats! You are nipping on the heals of two legends of the game!
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Amazing score. Hope you get that record
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Yes, this is exciting news, keep on drivin'! :)
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Thanks for the kind words guys. It's starting to come together!
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Awesome! Can't wait for the next PB update :)
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No PB score this time... just the fastest single lap ever done on Pole Position! Surprised myself! Now just have to get a few in a row.
(https://i.imgur.com/jZUgPu3.png)
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Brag post alert. So I'm officially on a trading card for playing an arcade game! I made it on one by getting all the Pole Position 2 WR's. Really can't believe it. Even got interviewed for the trading card spotlight on the website! I think it's cool as hell! and glad to see there's still some fun left in the arcade world! You can check out the interview at the link below.
https://thewalterdaycollection.com/articles/trading-card-spotlight/411-trading-card-spotlight-dan-yamnitz
(https://i.imgur.com/T6OdGXm.png)
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Congrats on becoming a trading card superstar! 8)
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Getting closer.. Feel like I've been saying that forever but I Ran a 214.33 (30 time left) and passed... 141 CARS! First time passing that many! Still with the slow time my score was a less than stellar 67,060. I know about the photograph from the 80's that shows 67,260 as the top score, (which would have had 141 cars) but here's probably the first video out there of passing 141 cars in Pole Position. ..and the miracle car 142 was WAY down the track at the finish line...
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Awesome news Dan! Great to see the first PP video with 141 cars passed. Yes, hopefully the pieces are coming together for an epic PP run.
Keep on drivin'!
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Congrats man, very soon!
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Any News on this?
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Any News on this?
Been awhile, guess I should update! (with a really long wall of text) I really lost interest over this past winter with the vid and all the crap going on, didn't play for many months. But... Started playing again a few months ago. I've pretty much figured out what it takes to get a 260 or *310. It is all about the spacing of the starting pattern. (meaning the spacing of the enemy cars the first time you come to them on the first lap of the main race) That controls everything.. almost. You still have to drive well enough to get a 213 time.
Ok, so there are places during attract mode you can coin up and ways to run the qualify lap to get certain 'patterns' of the first 4 enemy cars the majority of the time. Meaning first car you come to is on the left, 2nd car in order is on the right, next 2 are on the left.
Or the first 2 are side by side and the next 2 are also, etc... (many possible patterns) BUT!!!! Now this is a BIG BUT. There is no way I have found, after many thousands of games, to do anything that controls the spacing of the enemy cars at the beginning of the main race. (meaning how far they are away from each other or you as you come to them) After you come to and pass those cars the first time, the pattern is set, all you can do is drive bad and make them move further away from you down the track. So you have to get lucky and get the spacing pattern where all the enemy cars are closer to you than normal. (so you pass more right before the finish line) THEN, ALSO drive perfect :D
Just some scoring info for those that don't know (A time of 213 and 142 cars is 67,310 a time of 213 and 141 cars is 67,260. 213 and 140 cars is 67,210. Time of 214 and 141 is 67,060, 214 and 140 cars is 67,010, etc.. )
Here's a breakdown of the spacing of enemy cars I've had over the last few months on Lap 1, at the First Hairpin:
1. The Best spacing (4 car pattern), you can get inside all 4 cars on the hairpin (VERY RARE, 141 possibly 142. I've never ran a 213 with that spacing, hard to get a good first lap time)
2. You cut inside 3 cars on the hairpin and the 4th is immediately on your left as you leave the hairpin (RARE, I've passed 141 many times getting this spacing pattern best time 214.03, surprise cars pop up early on blind curves)
3. You cut inside 3 cars on the hairpin and the 4th is halfway to the puddle on the left. (SEMI RARE, I've also passed 141 cars sometimes but usually 140 cars. I have run 213 but only got 140)
4. Pass 3 or 2 cars on inside during the hairpin and the 4th car is at the puddle or past. Just stop. 140 or more is impossible.
All of this is noticable at the finish line of lap 1. If you pass the 4th car in the group (red and white car) well before the finish line of lap 1 you're in good shape if you run good. If you cross the finish line at the same time or after that car has crossed it, it's over. Just another 66,9XX
Since these "Short Spacing" patterns are rare, it's really hard to have an idea how the enemy cars are going to behave later in the race on laps 2,3,4 in the tough spots (turn 1 and the hairpin) So I'll have an amazing race going, hit the hairpin on lap 4 and boom there's a f'n car there, that in every other race is way farther down the track. It's like practicing for the olympics but only randomly on every 10-15th time the hurdles are spaced right for you to get your fastest time. Frustrating at times ha!
I usually play 15-20 games at a session, sometimes I get the goods, most times not. (and I still crash more than I'll admit) And you still have to drive the damn game perfect! No brushing cars, no skidding (excpet when necessary) hug the yellow lines etc. But I know from my own races that I still have A LOT of room for improvement! Oh, and a time of 212 is technically possible... I've run the individual lap times to get it, L1 55.67, L2 51.98, L3 52.00, L4 52.71 +.50 = 212.86 Just not in the same race.
The history of the high scores was looked into a year ago... as much as it can be anyways. For those that don't know heres a little info.
All Print Guinness books from 1985, 1986, and 1987 say 67,260 is the WR. In issue 7, Feb. 1990 Electronic Gaming Monthly Magazine printed the first ever mention of a score of 67,310. In 1998 Twin Galaxies and Walter Day released a book "Official Video Game & Pinball Book of World Records" As you might have guessed, one of it's sources was Electronic Gaming Monthly. It prints that 67,310 is the WR. When the TG website went up they used the book to populate the high scores on their site. That's just a little background on the current *high score.
I have no idea if 310 happened or not, but I know 260 did and there is a time associated with it. And I'm going to beat it.
TL;DR This game still rocks, I'm back playing, figured some new stuff out, hope to post new high scores soon!
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That's some damn good info. I'm glad dimmu borgir asked.
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Thank you Dan, John, and others for putting together so much information! I joined DKF just to learn from you folks. A new bar arcade opened up recently nearby that has Pole Position and I've been putting time into it, recently getting a pair of 66010's. This really made me wonder what does it take to break through the next levels :).
My biggest issue (right now) is getting the same pattern where after the first turn, all 4 cars are clumped together. I get this pattern far more often than not, which is driving me bonkers. Assuming I've read the prior posts correctly (this is a big if), it feels like the start sequence of cars for the main race is still an open question.
In my own MAME experimentation, I tried to see if crossing the lap line at different times made a difference, and at different positions (crossing at the exact same lap time). I also tried coining up at different times. Nothing seemed to have any effect. I did seem to notice, though, that if I go through the first turn with high speed that seems to space the cars out more. It's possible I'm just seeing things, or perhaps it has to do with touching the yellow inside line as John had mentioned in an earlier post?
Also, is it possible that reloading save states in MAME doesn't restore the internal clock correctly, thus making experimentation that much harder?
Curious to hear everyone's thoughts!!
Happy driving and congrats to everyone for your amazing scores!
Any News on this?
Been awhile, guess I should update! (with a really long wall of text) I really lost interest over this past winter with the vid and all the crap going on, didn't play for many months. But... Started playing again a few months ago. I've pretty much figured out what it takes to get a 260 or *310. It is all about the spacing of the starting pattern. (meaning the spacing of the enemy cars the first time you come to them on the first lap of the main race) That controls everything.. almost. You still have to drive well enough to get a 213 time.
Ok, so there are places during attract mode you can coin up and ways to run the qualify lap to get certain 'patterns' of the first 4 enemy cars the majority of the time. Meaning first car you come to is on the left, 2nd car in order is on the right, next 2 are on the left.
Or the first 2 are side by side and the next 2 are also, etc... (many possible patterns) BUT!!!! Now this is a BIG BUT. There is no way I have found, after many thousands of games, to do anything that controls the spacing of the enemy cars at the beginning of the main race. (meaning how far they are away from each other or you as you come to them) After you come to and pass those cars the first time, the pattern is set, all you can do is drive bad and make them move further away from you down the track. So you have to get lucky and get the spacing pattern where all the enemy cars are closer to you than normal. (so you pass more right before the finish line) THEN, ALSO drive perfect :D
Just some scoring info for those that don't know (A time of 213 and 142 cars is 67,310 a time of 213 and 141 cars is 67,260. 213 and 140 cars is 67,210. Time of 214 and 141 is 67,060, 214 and 140 cars is 67,010, etc.. )
Here's a breakdown of the spacing of enemy cars I've had over the last few months on Lap 1, at the First Hairpin:
1. The Best spacing (4 car pattern), you can get inside all 4 cars on the hairpin (VERY RARE, 141 possibly 142. I've never ran a 213 with that spacing, hard to get a good first lap time)
2. You cut inside 3 cars on the hairpin and the 4th is immediately on your left as you leave the hairpin (RARE, I've passed 141 many times getting this spacing pattern best time 214.03, surprise cars pop up early on blind curves)
3. You cut inside 3 cars on the hairpin and the 4th is halfway to the puddle on the left. (SEMI RARE, I've also passed 141 cars sometimes but usually 140 cars. I have run 213 but only got 140)
4. Pass 3 or 2 cars on inside during the hairpin and the 4th car is at the puddle or past. Just stop. 140 or more is impossible.
All of this is noticable at the finish line of lap 1. If you pass the 4th car in the group (red and white car) well before the finish line of lap 1 you're in good shape if you run good. If you cross the finish line at the same time or after that car has crossed it, it's over. Just another 66,9XX
Since these "Short Spacing" patterns are rare, it's really hard to have an idea how the enemy cars are going to behave later in the race on laps 2,3,4 in the tough spots (turn 1 and the hairpin) So I'll have an amazing race going, hit the hairpin on lap 4 and boom there's a f'n car there, that in every other race is way farther down the track. It's like practicing for the olympics but only randomly on every 10-15th time the hurdles are spaced right for you to get your fastest time. Frustrating at times ha!
I usually play 15-20 games at a session, sometimes I get the goods, most times not. (and I still crash more than I'll admit) And you still have to drive the damn game perfect! No brushing cars, no skidding (excpet when necessary) hug the yellow lines etc. But I know from my own races that I still have A LOT of room for improvement! Oh, and a time of 212 is technically possible... I've run the individual lap times to get it, L1 55.67, L2 51.98, L3 52.00, L4 52.71 +.50 = 212.86 Just not in the same race.
The history of the high scores was looked into a year ago... as much as it can be anyways. For those that don't know heres a little info.
All Print Guinness books from 1985, 1986, and 1987 say 67,260 is the WR. In issue 7, Feb. 1990 Electronic Gaming Monthly Magazine printed the first ever mention of a score of 67,310. In 1998 Twin Galaxies and Walter Day released a book "Official Video Game & Pinball Book of World Records" As you might have guessed, one of it's sources was Electronic Gaming Monthly. It prints that 67,310 is the WR. When the TG website went up they used the book to populate the high scores on their site. That's just a little background on the current *high score.
I have no idea if 310 happened or not, but I know 260 did and there is a time associated with it. And I'm going to beat it.
TL;DR This game still rocks, I'm back playing, figured some new stuff out, hope to post new high scores soon!
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Awesome that you have a public place to play! and the game is on the right settings too! 66k is no joke, great score. Is the game an upright or cockpit? and what city is the Arcade in? If you can run 66k no reason you shouldn't be able to crack 66,5xx or 66,7xx.
One of the only ways I've found to at least change up the starting patterns of cars is to delay pressing the gas at the start of the qualify lap. Just wait a second or 2. Your lap timer doesn't start til you cross the start line so you will still get pole position and that puts the cars on the Q lap in different positions and seems to give different groupings of the cars in the main race. Still random but at least different lol. The fact that you are getting the 4 cars all grouped together on the first corner is, believe it or not, a good thing. Just have to go inside the 2 cars on the right and try not to slow down much if at all. It's hard as hell, but it sets up the race to give you the chance to pass more cars. Do you have any video of your gameplay? I'd be able to tell you instantly where you are losing time. At least where you can make up enough to get a few more seconds. Hope you keep playing and good luck!
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This thread has been so helpful over the last couple years I have to post this here! Ran a 67,260 a few days ago!
(https://i.imgur.com/GWsaYhB.jpg)
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Fucking amazing man. So sick. Hope you get that record soon and it will be celebrated as one of the best classic arcade achievements of all time (this score itself is definitely up there as well). Good luck sir.
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Amazing!
The best thing about this run is that it's actually just the tiniest hair short of perfect, so that means that there's the tiniest hair of room for improvement. Looking forward to it, but even if it never happens, this is legendary status!
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Amazing!
The best thing about this run is that it's actually just the tiniest hair short of perfect, so that means that there's the tiniest hair of room for improvement. Looking forward to it, but even if it never happens, this is legendary status!
Thanks man! Appreciate it! You are so right, def. room for improvement! This game is so damn hard. I run 66,910 or 66,960 whenever now. But getting that extra .5 seconds is unbelieveably difficult. And it all starts with the random pattern of enemy cars at the beginning of the game too. I haven't gotten to the point where I quit if I have a bad pattern.. but it's getting temtping. Knowing that no matter how you play you can't get it is frustrating but I just use that run as more practice.
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Fucking amazing man. So sick. Hope you get that record soon and it will be celebrated as one of the best classic arcade achievements of all time (this score itself is definitely up there as well). Good luck sir.
Thanks! If/When I get 310 it will be The record. Nobody got 310. The evidence of it not happening is literally overwhelming.
Les or Mike or both got 67,260. It happened. By them and me. I've been told that every High Score from the July 1984 Video Game Masters Tournament (where the "record" happened) went in to Guinness. I also know that there is zero mention ever of a score of 67,310 until Feb. 1990 in Electronic Gaming Monthly issue 7. Why would you put in the time and effort to get a score in the Guinness Book of World Records and then they report it wrong. Then wrong agian in 1986, Then wrong again in 1987, then wrong again in every single magazine of the 80's. And nobody says anything. Not Wayne, not Les, not Mike, not Walter..
I'm aware of the stories that have been told on internet posts throughout the 2000's "shocked by an extra car" "1 in a million race" Wayne saying it happened on his machine, but never says what score was "IT" It is worth noting that it is remembered so clearly 30+ years later yet at the time it didn't seem to matter to anyone at all that the 'wrong?' score was submitted and accepted by TG and Guinness. Even though I was told by Jeff Peters that everyone knew it was a Guinness event so it was taken very seriously. As it should have been. No internet, no gaming expos every month, just these tournaments. Where the top scores were recorded, submitted and put in print.
In 1989 Issue 1 of Electronic Gaming Monthly they list the Pole Position high score as 67,260. Issue 7 bumps the score by 50 points for the first time ever.
I believe that 310 is likely possible. I believe if somene got that score, they played the shit out of Pole Position and they would be pretty damn sure that the score was reported correctly. Why get high scores if it Never gets printed ever for 6 years? (and then in some niche magazine) If any actual proof of that score from 1984 surfaced I'd be the First to shake their hands!! I'd love to believe it happened. But all the evidence points to a clerical error, or intentional misprint in issue 7 of Electronic Gaming Monthly. I would LOVE to be proved wrong! Because I think 310 might actually be possible, and so did they. Unfortunately every single high score table in print including the Guinness Book in All of the 1980's shows that a score of 67,260 and a time of 213.84 was as good as they actually got. Please prove me wrong. Seriously, please.
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I like to dig through stuff. This further cements the point being made above.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140123195127/http://mysite.verizon.net/hattg/pics/videogame/1986_VGM_TOGM.pdf
However, if you go by dates listed on Les Lagier's scores then presumably 67,260 happened in 1984 and 67,310 happened in 1986.
I'd say it's very possible that this happened, but 67,260 was still the score reported in 1987 according to Mark Alpiger's website on the results.
I of course want to believe Mike Klug, etc and it very well could just be that they didn't record the 67,310 for submission in 1984. It could have also happened in 1985, 1986, or 1987 and maybe there's a memory issue there given it was over 30 years ago... However once again all the results say 67,260 for each year's results (or more likely carried over from 1984's results presumably).
CONCLUSIONS:
Options that make sense to me:
1) 67,310 happened in the 1984 tournament and wasn't reported properly and the 67,260 rolled into the next editions.
2) Les Lagier achieved 67,260 at the tournament and then later upped his score to 67,310 and people are misremembering when the specific scores were achieved.
3) 67,310 happened: In 1990, Les Lagier contacted the USNVGT and sent them a photo of the 67,310 he achieved prior. (I can believe this because I bet it would be hard to get Guinness to change the score).
4) 67,310 didn't happen: Is the USNVGT reliable? Well, hopefully. 67,310 clearly isn't a typo, so SOMEONE entered it with photo proof or not. (I can believe this because Billy Mitchell et al).
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The most reasonable option is that 67,310 did actually happen. And I say this for a few reasons:
- If 67,260 happened earlier with a photo it's not unreasonable an oversight was made on the final Pole Position results.
- Why would Mike Klug let his top competitor have an "unbeatable" score and permanently cement him in 2nd place if it didn't actually happen?
- There are 3 witnesses of the 67,310 (but yes, I understand it was over 30 years ago so could be inaccurate memories/timeline).
- 67,310 appeared in 1990, but it's certainly not a typo... which means either there was proof for it later or somebody messed with the score intentionally.
- 67,310 appears to be a reasonably possible score. It's not an extremely wild claim. Why not just list something like 67,360 instead if it was a fake score anyway? If whoever got caught altering it... later, they could claim it was a typo of 67,260 for example.
Anyway I think 67,310 DID happen, but yes it is possible that someone on the USNVGT (or EGM) altered the score later.
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Thanks for commenting! I had never seen the 1986 vgmt manual before, so the threshhold score even in 1986 was 67,260.
I think that the best score, highest score, whatever, achieved on a game should be a fact, with proof or providence. All the options you mentioned are totally reasonable but there are just so many possible options, and people have to decide to 'believe or think' a score is real. There really should be a higher bar for a World Record. I don't even think the bar is very high for 67,310 to be considered fact, even hand written scribbles from '84 showing it would probably be enough. However with all the places 67,260 actually is mentioned throughout the 80's and 310 is literally never mentioned makes it hard for me to 'believe'
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Twin Galaxies has always bothered me for this reason. I've been on the scene for a long time now and it was always frustrating to see impossible scores/times on the leaderboards. The whole *glitches banned* aspect of TG also really annoyed me. Especially when you've got some of the most iconic games of all time and people are clearly doing unintended tactics (leeching DK by jumping next to him on the rivets is clearly a glitch, Pac-Man has "booeys" which allow you to go straight through ghosts, and countless other techniques in other titles).
It bothered me so much that I was the one who prompted the challenge system on TG to challenge scores. If an "official scoreboard" wants to call itself official there really should be proof for world records. The 80s scores have always been interesting because you never know if they happened or not. I feel like the leaderboard should have been split long ago between "legacy scores" and modern given the vast amount of errors on TG. It's unfair for modern era players to compete against impossible scores. It's silly.
I stopped caring about Twin Galaxies being "official" many years ago and simply use it as a reference point. A world record is the best score with proof... photo or video, no exception. It simply goes without saying. How can you have an "official" leaderboard with countless and I mean countless errors on it? So many of the 80s scores are simply copied from unreliable sources even. Imagine if the 3 million score in DK was still considered the world record? Without the existence of a kill screen it still might have been considered "fact."
Now that said, I'd call you the tied world record holder. There is a photo of a 67,260 and that's proof enough given the history of it. 67,310 is simply an unsubstantiated claim and while I think it happened, it doesn't matter.
Twin Galaxies barely has any reputation left as it is and most people these days expect a certain level of proof (no vid, no did). There were definitely great scores done in the 80s, but if they can't be substantiated they don't belong on a scoreboard where people still compete. Grandfather the old scores *the ones that can't be proven at all* and call them "legacy world records" and be done with it. Keep the old scores with at least some level of proof. 67,310 is too questionable.
I've seen this series of events unfold so many times where people are likely just competing against scores that are either impossible or never happened and it's sad to see these people cheated out of legitimate world records on a supposedly "official" scoreboard.
How hard is it to take a photo of a score in the 80s? Something that someone worked on for months... years even? Like c'mon. If you care about it, then it's on you to substantiate it. Grab a Polaroid camera or deal with people never believing you, your choice. I also laugh at anyone who submitted to TG but refused to share their performance (prior to Jace), because the irony there is that sure you'll hold the "world record" forever but no one will believe you. It's great.
I mean, luckily we have a photo of the 67,260! That's great to see honestly. But, you gotta wonder why not the 67,310?
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Wayne C, who ran the arcade where the 67,310 is claimed to have been done and who states he saw the score, has been posting recently defending the score on a thread over at CAGDC: http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,5904.0.html
The thread is old, but has some recent posts from Wayne if you scroll down in it.
I did notice that in one post Wayne claims "Les' high score was definitely made on July 1. 1984" but then in a later post says "When was Mike's high score attained? That was 37 years ago so I don't know for sure".
Wayne also seems to think that if you pass cars on the outside (which slows you down quickly if you go off road) that should be grounds for disqualification, which in the words of someone wiser then me, makes me wonder if he's every played the game.
That said, while it's odd that no references to the 67,310 score seem to have occurred around when it happened, I don't think there's enough evidence to remove it as a "legacy" score at TG.
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Wayne C, who ran the arcade where the 67,310 is claimed to have been done and who states he saw the score, has been posting recently defending the score on a thread over at CAGDC: http://www.classicarcadegaming.com/forums/index.php/topic,5904.0.html
The thread is old, but has some recent posts from Wayne if you scroll down in it.
I did notice that in one post Wayne claims "Les' high score was definitely made on July 1. 1984" but then in a later post says "When was Mike's high score attained? That was 37 years ago so I don't know for sure".
Wayne also seems to think that if you pass cars on the outside (which slows you down quickly if you go off road) that should be grounds for disqualification, which in the words of someone wiser then me, makes me wonder if he's every played the game.
That said, while it's odd that no references to the 67,310 score seem to have occurred around when it happened, I don't think there's enough evidence to remove it as a "legacy" score at TG.
wow, that escalated quickly lol! Cat went from I totally cheated in capital letters to I support Dan's score in 0.2 seconds! HA!
To be clear I can't even start a dispute if I wanted to, I don't have enough magic TG points. I have been offered to have one started for me but haven't moved on it.
Appreciate the heads up, I've seen that forum before, but you can't even register for it anymore. Goes to show that if you even just question the status quo you better have your head on a swivel!
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That said, while it's odd that no references to the 67,310 score seem to have occurred around when it happened, I don't think there's enough evidence to remove it as a "legacy" score at TG.
I don't think anyone is actually trying to remove it, but in the case of Twin Galaxies in general I wish they would grandfather (or something similar) the old scores that have little to no proof.
I don't feel as though Les' score should be removed. I tend to think it did happen, but it's hard to say. I don't think there's enough evidence to say it didn't happen though. TG tends to only remove scores that are impossible or have solid evidence against them.
I just think there should be a distinction between scores with proof and scores without definitive proof. I mean, I know that they DO differentiate them now the the TGSAP or whatever it's called... having links to the new scores which is a huge step in the right direction. However, I wish something more were done about this sort of issue.
For example, a good idea would just be to classify all the old scores with the assumption that ANYTHING was allowed, because it really was the wild west back in the day. Did multiple people play for a marathon score? Were multiple credits used? How do we know the settings were what they are claimed? Literally none of this can be validated or proved. I recall Paperboy's score being ridiculous for example unless they used a different setting (which 99.99% they did use the more favorable settings), yet TG won't change these rulesets that were literally added after the scores were already made.
It's like if someone got 3,333,360 in Pac-Man and then TG said "oh yeah, this ruleset is 3 lives." This is literally what has happened with many arcade titles.
Anyway, I've always wanted to fix TG and I've made good suggestions to make it fair and reasonable for everyone, but I don't think TG will ever be fixed. However, the addition of an *Basically Anything Goes* category in the case of 80s scores is super reasonable and should be implemented.
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Anyhow, the situation with Pole Position is a bit unfortunate. BUT! 67,310 should be possible at least so there's that! Hopefully you keep going with it. :)
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Anyhow, the situation with Pole Position is a bit unfortunate. BUT! 67,310 should be possible at least so there's that! Hopefully you keep going with it. :)
Can't stop now lol! What's funny is in all of Wayne's ramblings, he actually gave the most information ever given about the style of play Mike and Les did. (might have to thank him for that someday...) I have started to assume that brushing the sides, other than slowing you down, actually pushes the cars a bit further away from you. Weather it's because you slowed down or it's the programming, but the fact that he goes crazy about them staying on the road could be a tell. (That would explain why I've gotten a bunch of 213 times but only 139 or 140 cars, I may be brushing the sides too much) I've run some races not on youtube where the cars seem to stay grouped longer, (meaning there is a better chance to catch that last group before the finish line. The last group is where car 139, 140, 141.. 142 are) and funny enough I do stay off the sides more in those races. I've gotten pretty darn good at this game and tweaking my playing style shouldn't be an issue, so I guess I'll see if hard skitches on turn 1 instead of brushing the inside makes any difference in cars. I can run about the same times doing either, it's just become habit to brush because it seems like you're cutting more of the corner. Back to the lab and I'll report back!
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I really wanna try my hand at this as well, but I've been looking to make sure I have an accurate version of the game before I start trying. I doubt I'll get anything close to even 66k for a while (if at all). I feel like you kinda need the steering wheel, but I'm just gonna play on some of the rereleases with controller and see how it goes. I'm very unfamiliar with how to get the precise turning. The way the track moves with the car is very deceptive!
I'm actually considering buying a cabinet! I'm not sure if it will happen, but if it does you can be sure you'll see some action from me. :) I also really like to try and solve games and this one seems like a big puzzle with the extra 10s, cars, and varying patterns. Hopefully staying on the road results in even more consistent scores for you.
I'd be interested in knowing if you have gameplay prior to your double 10 video on youtube. I just find it fascinating. Mike Klug mentioned in another post that he had scored an extra 10 in the qualifier but that it disappeared in the main race or something along those lines. He mentioned that maybe the game rounds... like it's 10004 and then rounds to 10000, but maybe there's some lucky 10005 that you got. I find it crazy given that you seem to be the only one to ever keep the extra 10 on the qualifier given what Mike was saying about it.
Possibly it sounds like MAYBE he got the extra 10 in the qualifier once or twice, but never the double? I'm not sure. I just stumbled onto a small post about it while searching for the 67,310 from the 80s.
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I really wanna try my hand at this as well, but I've been looking to make sure I have an accurate version of the game before I start trying. I doubt I'll get anything close to even 66k for a while (if at all). I feel like you kinda need the steering wheel, but I'm just gonna play on some of the rereleases with controller and see how it goes. I'm very unfamiliar with how to get the precise turning. The way the track moves with the car is very deceptive!
I've found mouse to be quite comfortable to play this on MAME. The degree of analog control really helps (near limitless range of motion, compared to a joysticks limited left to right joystick range).
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I really wanna try my hand at this as well, but I've been looking to make sure I have an accurate version of the game before I start trying. I doubt I'll get anything close to even 66k for a while (if at all). I feel like you kinda need the steering wheel, but I'm just gonna play on some of the rereleases with controller and see how it goes. I'm very unfamiliar with how to get the precise turning. The way the track moves with the car is very deceptive!
I'm actually considering buying a cabinet! I'm not sure if it will happen, but if it does you can be sure you'll see some action from me. :) I also really like to try and solve games and this one seems like a big puzzle with the extra 10s, cars, and varying patterns. Hopefully staying on the road results in even more consistent scores for you.
I'd be interested in knowing if you have gameplay prior to your double 10 video on youtube. I just find it fascinating. Mike Klug mentioned in another post that he had scored an extra 10 in the qualifier but that it disappeared in the main race or something along those lines. He mentioned that maybe the game rounds... like it's 10004 and then rounds to 10000, but maybe there's some lucky 10005 that you got. I find it crazy given that you seem to be the only one to ever keep the extra 10 on the qualifier given what Mike was saying about it.
Possibly it sounds like MAYBE he got the extra 10 in the qualifier once or twice, but never the double? I'm not sure. I just stumbled onto a small post about it while searching for the 67,310 from the 80s.
Hope you're able to find a cabinet! It def. as much a puzzle game as a racing game in my opinion and it's different every time. As far as the extra 10. In pole position 2 it happens all the time. Getting the double 10 also happens way more often. In Pole 2 the settings are for 5 laps. I think the more laps has something to do with it. In Pole 1 I only get the 10 on qualifying maybe 1 in 30 races. And every other time than that once, you don't get the 10 on the main race. But 99% of the time I don't get it in qualifying, I get it in the main race. Not sure at all why it happens but I believe it has to do with how you drive, where you are on the track, somehow it makes the game think you drove a further distance than the distance normally driven over 4 laps. Might have to do with rounding, or 'bad atari math' in the very first post of this thread. I've got races on my youtube channel going back 2 years when I was just getting started, a 66k, 66.5, and so on. https://www.youtube.com/c/DanielYamnitz/videos
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I don't feel as though Les' score should be removed. I tend to think it did happen, but it's hard to say. I don't think there's enough evidence to say it didn't happen though. TG tends to only remove scores that are impossible or have solid evidence against them.
We would only know for sure through an actual dispute review process. What is beyond debate is that Guinness, which was the publication to carry the annual VGMT results, credited Les with a score of 67,260 from the 1984 VGMT, and printed this score in the 1985, 1986, and 1987 Guinness record books, after which Guinness stopped carrying video game scores. Les' score was subsequently cited as 67,260 in the Amusement Players Association International Scoreboard "Top Score" newsletter, which is basically the rebranded TGIS after Steve Harris took it over. From there, it appeared several times over the rest of the 80s in different magazines. Then in February 1990, Les' name is attached for the first and only time to a score of 67,310 before Walter released the TG record book in 1998. Someone might think "oh, maybe Les got the score after the VGMT," but he has conveyed through Mike several times that he immediately retired from active competition following the 1984 VGMT, so that explanation is a dead end. Certainly if we were to take a double-pan scale and place all the publications that cite 67,260 on one side, and the single publication that cites 67,310 on the other, it's not even close.
That said, I would love to see yamnitz pull off a 310, it would be an incredible event. I am really rooting for you, Dan.
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Again the question just becomes... who was the one who changed the score and why? It's not a text error so either he did get it at some point or someone tampered with the score.
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Again the question just becomes... who was the one who changed the score and why? It's not a text error so either he did get it at some point or someone tampered with the score.
The USVGNT wasn't exactly filled with honest blokes lol. Guinness maintained the score of 67,260 all through the 80's for years and years. If Wayne from video paradise is so upset about something, he should be upset that he either delivered the wrong score, or he didn't apply due diligence to see the right score was submitted with all the rules in place. It is a fact that literally every single rule was NOT followed. 1. record the time. 2. record the cars passed. 3. Photo required. The only thing that can be presumed to have happened is that a score got submitted. Which was 67,260. and printed in Guinness, along with every other "CORRECT" score from the 1984 VGMT.(or are other scores wrong too?) You do have to follow a process to get a world record.
Could I just say I did it with a few 'somebody's' who swear their honest. No. I have to follow the process which is now a full video of gameplay, board, dips, cabinet, etc. I followed the process. btw, the process back in 1984 was a LOT easier lol. And they still couldn't do it right. The score of 67.310 is smoke with LITERALLY no process. If Wayne says it happened then he was either the worst ref of all time. By being incompetent with the score submission, and following ZERO rules to back up the score, And then not noticing he was wrong for 6 years... Or he is just confused and doesn't remember.. Or, is he trying to protect his boys from San Jose. Who played the game in his arcade, then his garage. On his machine. The same machine that was played on in the VGMT.. Les, Wayne and Mike. All connected on a personal and professional level, with Wayne as the ref.. that's not a process. That's collusion.
If anyone has access to that dead forum PLEASE copy paste this for Wayne. I've tried to register years ago and no new registers are allowed.. hmmm, wonder why.. https://www.classicarcadegaming.com/
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Again the question just becomes... who was the one who changed the score and why? It's not a text error so either he did get it at some point or someone tampered with the score.
That's an interesting question. I tried to follow up on this question with some staff members from EGM, but in one case the person indicated they left the magazine before this score appeared, and in another the person couldn't recall, and since the source materials for recording the scores were long gone, there was no way to trace back how the entry appeared in the 1990 issue of EGM as 67,310 even though it appeared as 67,260 in previous issues. One could simply chalk it up to a dictation error given the all of the previous published examples that cited 260, but because the principals today are asserting that it was 310 all along, but somehow was incorrectly recorded - and somehow corrected - years later is an awkward situation to say the least. I should add that in addition to the aforementioned publications, the tournament organizers of the VGMT itself recorded 67,260 as the "threshold score" to beat for getting your name into Guinness based on the results of the 1984 VGMT.
https://web.archive.org/web/20140123195127/http://mysite.verizon.net:80/hattg/pics/videogame/1986_VGM_TOGM.pdf
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Again the question just becomes... who was the one who changed the score and why? It's not a text error so either he did get it at some point or someone tampered with the score.
If anyone has access to that dead forum PLEASE copy paste this for Wayne. I've tried to register years ago and no new registers are allowed.. hmmm, wonder why.. https://www.classicarcadegaming.com/
I do have an account, but lost the password long ago and the email associated with it is long gone. I'm gonna try and log in though.
EDIT: Yeah, I can't. However negative1 posted your response on the forum btw.
I missed my shot at buying the Pole Position cabinet I was eyeing. Had it still been listed I actually probably would have made the purchase. Oh well. I bought the PS1 version just to mess around with it and the controls have been really finicky given it's not a steering wheel. Regardless I am gonna see if I can figure anything out with this game when I have time.
I have a good eye for this kind of thing so maybe I'll have some info on extra cars or the bonus 10, etc. I'm not super technical, but I wish I could look at the code for the scoring bonus haha. Might give some clue as to what's going on there... I've been searching for some info and have come up short here so far. Anyway, I will be researching some more and with any luck I'll have some answers with this game.
I am thinking I won't be getting any good scores with the PS1 version mostly due to the controls. I need to mess around with it more though.
Regardless of TG or Guinness... At the end of the day the world record is the best performance with proof. TG and even Guinness credibility these days is lacking. I'd love to see a real entity that actually cares about the integrity of their leaderboards.
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Again the question just becomes... who was the one who changed the score and why? It's not a text error so either he did get it at some point or someone tampered with the score.
If anyone has access to that dead forum PLEASE copy paste this for Wayne. I've tried to register years ago and no new registers are allowed.. hmmm, wonder why.. https://www.classicarcadegaming.com/
I do have an account, but lost the password long ago and the email associated with it is long gone. I'm gonna try and log in though.
EDIT: Yeah, I can't. However negative1 posted your response on the forum btw.
I missed my shot at buying the Pole Position cabinet I was eyeing. Had it still been listed I actually probably would have made the purchase. Oh well. I bought the PS1 version just to mess around with it and the controls have been really finicky given it's not a steering wheel. Regardless I am gonna see if I can figure anything out with this game when I have time.
I have a good eye for this kind of thing so maybe I'll have some info on extra cars or the bonus 10, etc. I'm not super technical, but I wish I could look at the code for the scoring bonus haha. Might give some clue as to what's going on there... I've been searching for some info and have come up short here so far. Anyway, I will be researching some more and with any luck I'll have some answers with this game.
I am thinking I won't be getting any good scores with the PS1 version mostly due to the controls. I need to mess around with it more though.
Regardless of TG or Guinness... At the end of the day the world record is the best performance with proof. TG and even Guinness credibility these days is lacking. I'd love to see a real entity that actually cares about the integrity of their leaderboards.
Bummer about the Pole Position machine! I think you'd really like playing one for an extended period of time. Is the PS1 game you got Namco museum? I have that for Gamecube. It's pretty difficult for me to play Pole Position with a controller, but still fun. If you find anything interesting in the gameplay I'm all ears! I've talked with Adam who was developing the fpga pole position clone. I know nobody believes it, but it's not dead... can't say it'll happen soon, but as of a week ago he has not given up on it. Considering he's the guy who cracked the customs, he would be the one to talk to about the code. I've asked a few simple questions but if/when he gets it done I'm sure the excitement will get him talking about everything he found out. The most important thing about the code (other than the the possible rng that controls the starting position of the enemy cars) is what changes the position of the enemy cars. switching lanes and moving forward or back. Is it truly just speed, or does touching the sides or passing outside/inside change their position. Right now I believe it's how the cars are stacked going into a corner, some are programmed to change lanes in a corner and either jump ahead or behind cars if they are right next to one. Getting another car may truly be an example of luck and getting the cars in the correct order right before hairpin on lap 3 or 4.. or not lol.
I read something years ago and can't find it. somebody was digging through the code of the gmae and found a bunch of "tables". like if x value happens then y happens. but like hundreds of options. I sometimes wonder if the movement of enemy cars is based on the steering wheel position. (there's only so much input on the game, steering wheel, shifter, gas, brake?) The game knows where you are and it could be knowing that by what the steering wheel optic board is reading, and then comparing it to what it was immediately before.. Spin the wheel in test mode and there are 256 individual letter/number combinations. 00 through FF, 0-9 and A-F combined. That's almost exactly 2 and 1/2 full steering wheel revolutions to cover all input combos. Just throwing that out there as it would be an easy undetectable way to make the game appear random, even though it isn't.
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After a break I'm back playing, bummer when I turned the game on a few weeks ago my high scores were gone. Just have to get new ones. Got an all time best 213.65 tonight. Dude that's fast no matter what, but I messed up in lap 1 and twice in lap 2, lap 3 was a disaster, lap 4 was golden. One of these days I'm gonna put it all together. Like I told Johnny, no mysterys, I'm gonna take it tick by f'n tick. 25 ticks to go.
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It's been a minute but wanted to drop a thanks to everyone that posted in this thread. Filled up my top scores with 260's lol. You all helped me along the way, appreciate you guys. Hopefully bigger things to come
(https://i.imgur.com/Lggyybu.jpg)
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Great stuff as always!!!
Wait but 2:14.00 -> 67,260???
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What are your best times per lap these days? I'm still wondering how possible 212.xx is.
Previous quote from you: "My fastest laps are 1: 55.65. 2: 51.99. 3: 52.03. 4: 52.70."
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Let's look at this again:
Dan's Sum of Bests on a per lap basis:
Lap 1: 55.65
Lap 2: 51.99
Lap 3: 52.03
Lap 4: 52.70
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Dan's Personal Best done in a full race:
Lap 1: 55.79
Lap 2: 52.15
Lap 3: 52.52
Lap 4: 52.70
Race end time = 213.65
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Now using John's chart from the 1st post in the thread:
55.79 -> 55.65 = 4 frames
52.15 -> 51.99 = 6 frames
52.52 -> 52.03 = 19 frames
52.70 -> 52.70 = 0 frames
Total = 29 frames
213.65 - 29 frames
= 212.96 race end time in theory.
Now, is it possible to run this race? Will the RNG of the cars always cause some deviation which wouldn't allow this to be possible?
This would give you 3 frames to spare or 4 considering 214.00 above gave the extra 200 on the timer. So presumably a 213.00 would give an extra 200?
Would result in 67,360+
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I still find it a little unreasonable that Twin Galaxies accepted the 67,310 but in theory it's real. I know you've decided it isn't, but I'm not entirely convinced that 67,260 wasn't a mistake. I'm 50/50 on it, but still agree with you and say the contest results are the results.
You have never hit a low 213 however and so there's question in my mind whether something like that could make a difference on the cars passed. Anything could alter it really since we don't fully understand how it works. Though since you've never seen it this pattern in general I could go the other way on it as well. But again, I'll mention the double extra 10pts in a SINGLE race as a possible argument to suggest another car could be passed in theory. We don't understand these things ultimately.
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I've gotten a little faster. Ran a 51.85 2nd lap and I've gotten 52.67 last lap. Maybe a few hundredths faster on the third. and yes the 214.00 is the cutoff 214.01 is 200 points less.
I'm really starting to understand how the game works in the main race, certain colored cars behave in certain ways. If I run 2 races the same, some of the cars will always be in the same spot but others won't. I believe the cars have programmed behavior. Some of the cars, like the yellow ones will be at the same place in race 1 and race 2, but say the white/green one will be in a totally different spot, It's difficult to explain but how you take the turns, how early or late you turn, hitting the sides, and even where you are on the track makes certain cars move different. And if that isn't enough, the cars that stay the same (yellow) can actually block or stop a moving car (green/white) from moving up to the next group. Which is ideally what you want, when a car "runs away" and joins the next group in front of it, that's 1 less car you will pass at the end of the race. So either with patterns or how you drive you want the grouping of cars to stay together. It's easy to notice on a qualifying lap, if you turn a certain way in the hairpin the green car will be on a different side of the track after the turn, but if you turn a different way you can keep it on the same side. This is useful in getting a good pattern for the fastest q lap time.
To sum up, that's why you can pass different numbers of cars with different finishing times. If more cars move up to the next group you will pass 138, 139. If you happen to drive/turn certain ways and have a certain pattern the cars will not (or be prevented) from moving up and you pass 140, 141, 142? with the same time. And on top of all that there is the RNG that makes even replicating your own race practically impossible. This game is incredibly complicated, the designers were geniuses! Getting a 212.99 wouldn't guarantee more cars just like the time I passed 141 cars with a 215.xx time.
To answer your other question, running all the fastest laps should be possible but in my experience if the cars are set up a certain way to give you a super fast 2nd lap, at least some of them move and make the 3rd harder and vice versa.
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Thanks for the reply. I really like to hear your experience with the game.
Maybe I'm a broken record at this point but the whole mystery with the 1984 tournament+EGM and all irks me when I can't seem to come up with a plausible explanation.
All in all it seems unlikely (or impossible) under what seems to be "normal" for an extra car to be passed. I've competed on and followed a lot of games and it's not unusual for some oddities to pop up for these older games, so I don't think I will ever have a definite opinion on the 67,310 but it seems like and less likely to me as I've learned more about the game.
Without the EGM entry there would be no question and it really raises questions as to why that ever appeared there. Like we've seen with many other 80s scores there are definitely frauds and fakes. I always wanted to believe the Pole Position story to be true. It's a very confusing set of circumstances. And then you have all of them saying that's what the score always was; it's just very fishy for sure.
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A few thoughts:
Do you let the demo run on your attempts or is that not always the case? You get a more favorable pattern if you start the game later, right? One of Les' quotes seemed to imply that his runs started immediately with the less favorable pattern. Meaning if he really did pass an extra car then it probably would have been on the worse pattern.
The lap times ultimately don't matter, right? So for example, if you waited 5 seconds to start the main race then the lap time wouldn't start until you actually started, but the timer would have started counting down immediately. So you could then run perfect laps, but your end time would read 217 because you waited 5 seconds to start. Assuming you hold gas at the start then the laps are perfect for knowing your progress I think though.
Once heard a rumor that said if you hold the gas pedal UP then you accelerate faster or get a faster top speed but I think that was probably some calibration issue (and just people imagining it being faster) after toying around with this myself. Just thought I'd mention it haha.
Also always wondered whether the brake could at all be beneficial. I have the upright so I never really had a chance to play around with that except on gamecube version. I just think... you never know, right? And or, if it could help at the end of the race. Just something to consider although likely useless.
And there's still that extra 10 points to consider. That one really interests me. My mind goes to it saving the speed from a previous attempt so maybe like you had 244mph when ending the previous race and that resulted in a faster opening or something? This makes sense to me as to the extra 10 on the main race too. Like it probably is preserving the speed from the qualifier or something. This is obviously just a guess but let's say you got up to 244mph in the qualifier and then the time ran out while playing, the car might not fully stop and so that speed might carry into the next race if only for a moment.
And last thing: Do you know how to get 245mph? I don't know if I've ever seen it on my machine. Does it only happen when finishing a race sometimes? I saw it present on other machines is all.
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OK beyond theory... I am curious about your general attempts these days.
I mean I know you've figured out quite a bit over the years and I'm curious what the best methods are since I want to give this a shot too. I finally have a little time to work on it although very little. I have put in ridiculously few games in for actually owning a machine now but I also have a toddler :D
So anyway I would like to get better and I'd love to know some general tips if you have any. I think you credit up at a specific time for a better pattern? And are you actually touching the yellow lines or do you just get close? I haven't examined your videos that closely on the strategies.
Am I aiming for a specific pattern and is there a way to influence it? I tend to like to figure things out on my own but I've spent a lot of time looking at this game with little success. So since you probably have it mostly solved I'm gonna take the lazy route for once. :)
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Yeah as far as the score from 1984, I choose to believe All the Guinness books throughout the 1980's and the future VGMT's that all had 67,260 as the score to beat. Those were scores from the height of the arcade game craze and everybody looked to Guinness or print publications of the time for the scores to beat. I agree having it said many years later that Guinness was wrong the whole time has always seemed 'fishy' to me too.
I don't think it's accurate to call it an 'extra car' anymore, the number of cars passed can be any number depending on the starting pattern of enemy cars and how the race is played. Playing over the years and seeing/learning how the game works I think 310 or more could be possible but it simply comes down to the percentages, how many patterns even allow for the cars to remain grouped together.. not many and then playing the game with a beneficial pattern in a way that the enemy cars don't run away, all while going fast enough to get a 214.00 or better. The odds are extremely low, and even if it all comes together, turning just slightly before or after in a turn on the 4th lap could cause 1 car to switch lanes and you go from 141 passed to 140, and you don't even know where you turned wrong or what is even the right way lol. The game itself reacts to how it's being played, again it's genius.
During attract mode there are certain points where if you coin up you will get a certain pattern in the q lap most of the time. I've experimented over the years and have not found any advantage to coining up at any particular spot. If you notice the demo is different the 2nd time through, then the 3rd, etc.. The cars are in different spots, your car crashes into them at different spots, I don't know how many times until it repeats the first demo mode pattern but again, I've found no advantage at one spot over another. That being said I usually just coin up right after a reset, I started doing it because it gave a little better pattern to get a fast qualifying lap, but more so just to save time. Work, family, kids, I have so little time to play as it is and I don't want to sit and wait. I have found that a key to keeping the cars grouped is trying to get them in the 4 car pattern at the beginning the first time you see the enemy cars, you know the 2x2 pattern. Then go through or around them and pass them all in the hairpin, that at least gives you the best chance of passing as many cars as possible. That's why I finish my q laps in the middle of the track, seems to give the 4 car pattern more often than finishing on the right or left of center line. Do you have the quote that mentions a less favorable pattern?
Correct lap times don't really matter, the master clock, which is the number ticking down at the top is the only thing that matters. All lap times do is show how fast you got around the track that particular lap, they don't add up or anything, the race time at the end is based on how much time is left on the master clock. (or how much time you used)
Any theories about manipulation of the pedal to go faster are urban legends. No advantage at all, and you might damage your pedal cable or pot!
I've been messing around and have tried the brake but it slows you down way too much to be useful on these settings. For the casual player it could help them play the game, but at this level it's pretty much useless. Yes I've tried tricks at the end of the race too, braking, upshifting, etc.. and I've never seen anything special.
I don't know exactly what causes the extra 10 points, but I kinda know when I'm going to get it in the qualify lap. It has to do with the hairpin and sliding through it a certain way as well as the speed you maintain. 10,000 points for a lap right and you get an extra 10 points, The game gives points for distance traveled, you can see the score going up as you go, and if you stopped on the track the points would stop. So basically the car traveled an extra 1/1000 distance over the lap but still started and finished at the same place. I really think it's a bug in Atari's programming and the type of gameplay required to get into the very high score range lends itself to giving the extra 10 more than scores in the lower range.
Getting the game to show 245 is by finishing the q lap at 244 and upshifting right at the finish line. You never actually go 245, but it shows it which is cool.
General tips are just play, you Have to figure out what the car can and can't do. How hard you can turn it in corners without losing grip and skidding, get used to where the enemy cars are, how they move and getting to know if you have enough room to go inside or not. Coining up at the beginning of the demo just after the car leaves the start and finishing the q lao on the right of center line should give some good patterns to get going. I remember years ago I would coin up right after a reset and it seemed much more difficult, but now that's all I do. I reset, coin up at the title screen, and finish dead center. I want the more difficult 4 car pattern if I can get it, but you will crash alot if you do it lol.
You're not really aiming for a specific pattern, and even if you were there's no sure fire way to get any pattern every time. My advice is just play, try to finish, then finish without a crash, then start staying inside. Ride the yellow line in turns as much as possible, especially the long turn before the last straight away, you will save time. Oh and don't get to close to enemy cars, that kills your time. Just watch some of my early videos if you want, and then watch one of my 67,260, you will notice differences in how I play. I never had anyone to watch or learn from at all, no videos after 66,510.. So it's a lot of trial and error on my part, people that come after me will sure have it easier than I had! Good luck man! Even after all these years it's still a fantastic and fun game!
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Appreciate the detailed response. Very interesting stuff. I don't know how far I will take this game, but I'd like to at least get a good handle on it.
Once I actually get better I'm sure I'll have more specific questions, but thanks for answering the more general ones. I hope TG hasn't discouraged you at all because you're awesome and have the fastest times which I still say kinda matters more than the scores. Even so you've tied the best *verifiable* score and that's all that matters.
It's hard to take TG seriously as an official entity sometimes. I still respect TG, but I don't think it will ever revive from its reputation of corruption. You can easily say to someone "this TG score might be fake" and they wouldn't second guess it. Like TG is now notorious for having cheated scores. I've said before, if *I* were in charged of TG I would have archived all the old scores as having been done under a different standard because well, THEY WERE. So it seems very unfair to modern players to have to compete against scores that aren't verifiable, don't have video proof, or can't be disproven because it's not always possible (literally it's almost impossible in many cases) to disprove that something didn't happen. The burden of proof should be on the person whose score is in question. Certainly most of the 80s scores are real, but the questionable ones are usually questionable for good reason.
While I certainly respect the 80s players I don't know how they expect modern players to just accept the 80s scores as fact when so many have been proven false, don't follow the same standard or settings, etc. Pole Position seems cut and dry like this is the result of the tournament, but I can somewhat understand the position TG is in. I just think that no one will take them seriously as long as they maintain so many questionable scores. It's a monumental task to fix the leaderboard and it's simply not possible for it to ever be considered "accurate" in my mind.
I kind of LIKE the mystery surrounding so many scores because it's the legends and myths of competitive gaming, but not when you're an active competitor. It feels like a slap in the face to modern players. So like I said, I like the idea of having them grandfathered for what they were and viewable, but not as "official" in the sense that the modern scores are.
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It was one of the youtube comments I think well just that Les said something like "my score would be higher if I got patterns like yours." I think Les looked at the average MPH and went off of that rather than the scores that were actually being obtained (again I say this in reference to something I came across interviewing Les) so I feel that's the reason he thought that much higher scores might be possible, but realistically the laps can't be much faster than what they were doing in the 80s. The limit for the game is probably 67,520?
More questions:
- Have you gotten the extra 10 in the qualifier more than once now? I might have come across something saying you get it every ~30 races or so? That might have been referencing something else. And your theory is that it has to do with finishing the qualifier quickly maybe? Do you think you need a certain qualifier pattern for it to happen? Same question for the extra 10 on the main race I suppose. Is there ever a time when you haven't gotten the extra 10 when getting a 213? Does it just have to do with maintaining high speeds consistently?
- Is there a pattern that you come across in the main race that just can't get good times? Like is there a pattern you come across and just reset? Or does that happen mid-race? I don't think I entirely followed what you said exactly on this.
- I've watched your race that was a good lap 1, 2, and 4 and I wondered whether you thought that race could have realistically hit something at or close to 212 now that you've seen so many patterns? I mean do you look at that race now and say "oh that was unavoidable beccause of the pattern, etc?"
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The extra 10 has to do with 'shortcutting' a tiny bit of the track per lap, so over 1 qualify lap and 4 main race laps it's traveling 1/5000th farther. I believe it happens in the hairpin when everything suddenly speeds up. Try playing the game where you never upshift, when you are going at max LOW speed of about 140ish, you seem so slow then when you come to the hairpin everything speeds up for a second. Weird stuff. That's why I think you gain just a little distance if you do the hairpin a certain way... that certain way leads to faster times, higher scores and you get the extra 10 more often that way. Getting it twice like I did just means I got 2/5000th farther, which seems very very unlikely since I've never repeated it.
so to be clear when I say pattern I only mean the pattern of the 4 enemy cars the very first time you see them in the main race. The order of the colored cars and where they are on the track. That is 'The Pattern" After that everything can change depending on going inside or not, hitting the sides or not, skidding or not, and sometimes just by being fast enough that cars usually change lanes but just so happens that another enemy car is there so it doesn't. Having 3 enemy cars on the inside of any turn is bad. Sometimes you start the game with 3 on the right and 1 on the left, I would consider that a bad pattern.
Yeah getting a 213.00 would be Incredibly tough. You have to be inside SO much to get the time down, and cars switch lanes during the race, a dozen random helpful things would have to happen on lap 3 and 4, while running basically a perfect first 2 laps. Not impossible but..
I am really figuring this game out right now.. hopefully big things coming soon!
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For the speedrun fans out there, just ran a 213.49 here's the link:
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Congrats! or as we say around here: Kongrats! :D
Very ready for the final chapter.
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I'm so following this. Please go on and beat that record.