Author Topic: Discussion about poor moderation and leaderboard management  (Read 6744 times)

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Offline Ohrami

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Discussion about poor moderation and leaderboard management
« on: September 01, 2021, 09:20:07 pm »
Since the Robbie Lakeman high score thread was locked for discussion, post further discussion about the atrocious decisions the moderators make relating to this website and its leaderboard here. Further discussion of Robbie Lakeman and his legitimate record being barred from submission to the site is welcome and is the most expected content for this thread but I'm sure with enough digging people can find other examples of poor moderation given that it has already been seen here. For anyone who didn't read the previous thread (I recommend starting there), I can summarize it:

Robbie Lakeman set the world record for Donkey Kong and currently, as of the writing of this post, does hold the highest score ever set in the entire game. However, he modified his machine's voltages to within the tolerances accepted by the leaderboard on DKF, which he falsely believed conferred some advantage to him in-game and made it more likely for him to achieve high scores. Furthermore, he publicly stated that he was under the false belief that other users were using voltage modification to gain an advantage in their own score runs. Robbie Lakeman made many aggressive social media posts attempting to provoke members of DKF relating to the voltage issue, but he was told repeatedly by DKF moderators that independent analysis all but proved that there is no measurable difference between a machine with stock voltage and the voltage he was running his machine at. In spite of this, Robbie Lakeman was denied the right to submit his world record to DKF, and it currently does not stand on DKF, because Robbie Lakeman modified his machine's voltage. Why would the moderators care that he modified his voltage when they had previously stated that voltage doesn't matter at all and has no effect on the gameplay at all? It's a technicality, you see; by modifying his voltage but also being of the false belief that it confers some in-game advantage, the DKF moderators concluded that Robbie has participated in "unsportsmanlike" behavior and attempted to cheat, which, to them, is just as bad as actually cheating.

Now, anyone who wasn't familiar with the situation at all and who read everything I just wrote in the above paragraph surely realizes that what the moderators did makes absolutely no sense, and that their decision was horrible, hence the reason for this thread opening up further discussion about this subject.
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Offline Ohrami

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Re: Discussion about poor moderation and leaderboard management
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2021, 09:29:38 pm »
Since editing posts isn't possible in this site, I have to make a new post to add: The ruling relating to Robbie Lakeman isn't because of voltage. It is not a blanket ruling against allowing high scores from machines with modified voltages. In fact, modifying voltages is still allowed, if the player modifying their machine's voltage does not believe that it will give them an advantage in-game. Whether or not the score is accepted is simply based around what the player publicly states he believes. Essentially, the moderators judge a score's validity based on the player's intelligence and honesty first and foremost, and their ability to achieve high scores in Donkey Kong comes second. People who are both unintelligent and honest, in that they falsely believe that modifying voltages has any effect at all on gameplay, but are also honest enough to publicly state that they believe it, are not allowed to submit Donkey Kong scores with modified voltages. Anyone else is free to do so.
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Offline xelnia

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Re: Discussion about poor moderation and leaderboard management
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2021, 10:55:18 pm »
Ok. I know this is still a sore subject for a lot of people, so let's do this one more time, for the last time.

Since the Robbie Lakeman high score thread was locked for discussion, post further discussion about the atrocious decisions the moderators make relating to this website and its leaderboard here. Further discussion of Robbie Lakeman and his legitimate record being barred from submission to the site is welcome and is the most expected content for this thread but I'm sure with enough digging people can find other examples of poor moderation given that it has already been seen here. For anyone who didn't read the previous thread (I recommend starting there), I can summarize it: Robbie Lakeman set the world record for Donkey Kong and currently, as of the writing of this post, does hold the highest score ever set in the entire game.

Some points in here will be addressed below, but if people want to dig around, please keep this thread on topic and we can broach other topics in other threads. Also, I'm pretty sure this is the highest score ever set in the game. :)

However, he modified his machine's voltages to within the tolerances accepted by the leaderboard on DKF,

Please cite the DKF rule that specifically addresses PCB voltages.

which he falsely believed conferred some advantage to him in-game and made it more likely for him to achieve high scores.

Is Robbie saying he falsely believed that, or are you saying he still believes it's true but you know it to be false?

Furthermore, he publicly stated that he was under the false belief that other users were using voltage modification to gain an advantage in their own score runs.

Same question...he believes it's false, or he believes it's true and you're saying it's false? Also, "they're doing it so it's ok for me to do it" is one of the most childish behaviors ever. And you of all people should know that public statements can have consequences.

Robbie Lakeman made many aggressive social media posts attempting to provoke members of DKF relating to the voltage issue, but he was told repeatedly by DKF moderators that independent analysis all but proved that there is no measurable difference between a machine with stock voltage and the voltage he was running his machine at.

I am the only active score moderator. I've been the only active score moderator for years. In that time, Robbie has submitted many verified scores and asked for my help privately in analyzing his games. He never once asked me if modifying PCB voltages was acceptable. I don't recall him asking me if I thought other players were doing the same thing, or to investigate other players for doing the same thing. There are other moderators for other sub-forums but none of them deal with score verification. Your point seems to be that some person(s) in a position to verify his scores told him that what he was doing was ok. This is false.

In spite of this, Robbie Lakeman was denied the right to submit his world record to DKF, and it currently does not stand on DKF, because Robbie Lakeman modified his machine's voltage.

He was not "denied the right to submit" anything. He submitted it and it was rejected. He made exactly 0 posts in defense of his submission. The very post you link to was his submission post, later moved to its own thread for larger discussion.

Why would the moderators care that he modified his voltage when they had previously stated that voltage doesn't matter at all and has no effect on the gameplay at all? It's a technicality, you see; by modifying his voltage but also being of the false belief that it confers some in-game advantage, the DKF moderators concluded that Robbie has participated in "unsportsmanlike" behavior and attempted to cheat, which, to them, is just as bad as actually cheating.

Again, I'm curious about the "false belief" here. And again, moderators (plural) is not accurate. I am the sole moderator responsible for the outcome. And if you see attempted cheating as a "technicality," then I'm not sure your concern about the integrity of any leaderboard is grounded in good faith.

Now, anyone who wasn't familiar with the situation at all and who read everything I just wrote in the above paragraph surely realizes that what the moderators did makes absolutely no sense, and that their decision was horrible, hence the reason for this thread opening up further discussion about this subject.

Any dissatisfaction with this issue should be directed at me...not the mysterious "moderators."

Since editing posts isn't possible in this site, I have to make a new post to add:

Editing posts in the High Score Lists sub-forums is disabled because some people were rage-quitting the site and deleting their submission posts. Editing posts on the rest of the site should still be enabled.

The ruling relating to Robbie Lakeman isn't because of voltage. It is not a blanket ruling against allowing high scores from machines with modified voltages. In fact, modifying voltages is still allowed, if the player modifying their machine's voltage does not believe that it will give them an advantage in-game.

There is no rule specifically allowing or banning voltage modification. Enforcing a rule like that is not something I'm interested in doing. I am, however, very interested in promoting fair play and integrity...something Robbie and his cheerleaders don't seem interested in doing.

Whether or not the score is accepted is simply based around what the player publicly states he believes. Essentially, the moderators judge a score's validity based on the player's intelligence and honesty first and foremost, and their ability to achieve high scores in Donkey Kong comes second. People who are both unintelligent and honest, in that they falsely believe that modifying voltages has any effect at all on gameplay, but are also honest enough to publicly state that they believe it, are not allowed to submit Donkey Kong scores with modified voltages. Anyone else is free to do so.

You don't seem to have a very high opinion of Robbie's intelligence, but I leave that between you two to work out. But let's be real here, man. You don't like the outcome and you don't believe my justification is valid. Ok, fair enough. Enough time has passed and enough arguments have been made that you would have changed your mind by now. This merry-go-round can't go on forever. So, if there has been some misunderstanding on my part, I request that you answer the following questions:

1) Which high score moderator did Robbie consult about modifying PCB voltages and when?
2) Which high score moderator told Robbie it was ok to modify the voltages on his PCB in order to gain an advantage and when?
3) Which high score moderator did Robbie approach with his concerns about potential cheating-via-voltage and when?
4) Is attempting to cheat in any competitive endeavor an acceptable behavior if you believe others are cheating?
5) Is attempting to cheat in any competitive endeavor an acceptable behavior, even if the attempt fails?
6) What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
"Do not criticize, question, suggest or opine anything about an upcoming CAG event, no matter how constructive or positive your intent may be. You will find nothing but pain and frustration, trust me. Just go, or don't go, and :-X either way!" -ChrisP, 3/29/15
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Offline Ohrami

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Re: Discussion about poor moderation and leaderboard management
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2021, 11:32:31 pm »
Is Robbie saying he falsely believed that, or are you saying he still believes it's true but you know it to be false?

The latter.

Same question...he believes it's false, or he believes it's true and you're saying it's false? Also, "they're doing it so it's ok for me to do it" is one of the most childish behaviors ever. And you of all people should know that public statements can have consequences.

The latter.

I am the only active score moderator. I've been the only active score moderator for years. In that time, Robbie has submitted many verified scores and asked for my help privately in analyzing his games. He never once asked me if modifying PCB voltages was acceptable. I don't recall him asking me if I thought other players were doing the same thing, or to investigate other players for doing the same thing. There are other moderators for other sub-forums but none of them deal with score verification. Your point seems to be that some person(s) in a position to verify his scores told him that what he was doing was ok. This is false.

It's irrelevant regardless. You stated the following when denying Robbie Lakeman's submission to the DKF leaderboard: "My decision is not based on whether the actual gameplay in this submission is legitimate, illegitimate, or malfunctioning." This means that even if you did conclude that voltage modification to the extent Robbie Lakeman did it should be illegal (despite many users' analysis within this own forum verifying that it has no effect), it wasn't the deciding factor for his rejection anyway.

He was not "denied the right to submit" anything. He submitted it and it was rejected. He made exactly 0 posts in defense of his submission. The very post you link to was his submission post, later moved to its own thread for larger discussion.

Pointless semantics.

Again, I'm curious about the "false belief" here. And again, moderators (plural) is not accurate. I am the sole moderator responsible for the outcome. And if you see attempted cheating as a "technicality," then I'm not sure your concern about the integrity of any leaderboard is grounded in good faith.

Refusal of a score submission on the basis of something that, by all measures anyone can conceive, has absolutely no effect on the actual outcome of the game, is doing it on a technicality. You have refused his score because of your own personal belief regarding Robbie Lakeman's intentions, despite his intentions being completely irrelevant to the actual outcome of the game as it was played.

1) Which high score moderator did Robbie consult about modifying PCB voltages and when?
2) Which high score moderator told Robbie it was ok to modify the voltages on his PCB in order to gain an advantage and when?
3) Which high score moderator did Robbie approach with his concerns about potential cheating-via-voltage and when?
4) Is attempting to cheat in any competitive endeavor an acceptable behavior if you believe others are cheating?
5) Is attempting to cheat in any competitive endeavor an acceptable behavior, even if the attempt fails?

1) I don't know but it's not relevant when it's accepted by more or less everyone that modifying voltages to the extent Robbie did in his own game doesn't confer any in-game advantages.
2) Same answer as 1.
3) Same answer as 1.
4) Whether or not something is "acceptable behavior" really should not be up to a leaderboard for a video game to judge. The leaderboard isn't judging people's character; it's judging their Donkey Kong ability.
5) Same answer as 4.
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Offline xelnia

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Re: Discussion about poor moderation and leaderboard management
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2021, 12:40:07 am »
When you make multiple demonstrably false statements and your reaction to being called out is:

It's irrelevant regardless.

Pointless semantics.

...then I know you're not arguing in good faith.


Furthermore, if this is really how you think leaderboards should or shouldn't work:

4) Whether or not something is "acceptable behavior" really should not be up to a leaderboard for a video game to judge. The leaderboard isn't judging people's character; it's judging their Donkey Kong ability.

...then we have nothing more to discuss. As far as I'm concerned, the discourse between you and I on this topic is over. If others want to chime in or ask questions in this thread, then I'm all ears. But I'm done wasting time on you.
"Do not criticize, question, suggest or opine anything about an upcoming CAG event, no matter how constructive or positive your intent may be. You will find nothing but pain and frustration, trust me. Just go, or don't go, and :-X either way!" -ChrisP, 3/29/15
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Offline TheKD

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Re: Discussion about poor moderation and leaderboard management
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2021, 03:42:53 am »
Do not criticize, question, suggest or opine anything about DKF moderation, no matter how constructive or positive your intent may be. You will find nothing but pain and frustration, trust me. Just post, or don't post, and :-X either way!
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Offline Snowflake

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Re: Discussion about poor moderation and leaderboard management
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2021, 10:19:48 am »
gonna do my best to avoid the never ending argument, but a point was made that yes i think might allow some progress

xelnia, you made the point robbie never explicilty asked you. well tecbnically you asked who he asked, but yes going with that.  That was kind of a major point of mine with his facebook posts that you clearly saw as well as him transparently showing his voltage.  Are you suggesting if he explicilty asked you for permission to use a lower voltage that would've made a difference in your ruling? As a follow up, had he explicitly asked you (I emphasize explicit because i really do feel the public posts your saw that he knew you saw and the transparent voltage shown at the end were an implicit request), what would your reply have been?
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Offline xelnia

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Re: Discussion about poor moderation and leaderboard management
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2021, 11:10:50 am »
Do not criticize, question, suggest or opine anything about DKF moderation, no matter how constructive or positive your intent may be. You will find nothing but pain and frustration, trust me. Just post, or don't post, and :-X either way!

lol

gonna do my best to avoid the never ending argument, but a point was made that yes i think might allow some progress

xelnia, you made the point robbie never explicilty asked you. well tecbnically you asked who he asked, but yes going with that.  That was kind of a major point of mine with his facebook posts that you clearly saw as well as him transparently showing his voltage.  Are you suggesting if he explicilty asked you for permission to use a lower voltage that would've made a difference in your ruling? As a follow up, had he explicitly asked you (I emphasize explicit because i really do feel the public posts your saw that he knew you saw and the transparent voltage shown at the end were an implicit request), what would your reply have been?

If Robbie had asked me, I would have told him that what he was doing was unacceptable. If he had still chosen to submit after that, then the outcome would have been the same.
"Do not criticize, question, suggest or opine anything about an upcoming CAG event, no matter how constructive or positive your intent may be. You will find nothing but pain and frustration, trust me. Just go, or don't go, and :-X either way!" -ChrisP, 3/29/15
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Offline Kewydee_17

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Re: Discussion about poor moderation and leaderboard management
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2021, 11:24:51 am »
There can't possibly be any peanuts left to pick out of this turd.
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Offline Flobeamer1922

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Re: Discussion about poor moderation and leaderboard management
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2021, 11:34:11 am »
Do not criticize, question, suggest or opine anything about DKF moderation, no matter how constructive or positive your intent may be. You will find nothing but pain and frustration, trust me. Just post, or don't post, and :-X either way!
For someone who doesn't even fucking play the game, you sure do seem to have a lot of stakes in this.
PBs:
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Donkey Kong Junior - 79,400 (4-2)
Donkey Kong 3 - 344,200 (Stage 22)
Crazy Kong Part II - 645,400 (22-4)

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Offline TheKD

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Re: Discussion about poor moderation and leaderboard management
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2021, 11:36:39 am »
For someone who doesn't even fucking play the game, you sure do seem to have a lot of stakes in this.

How do you know how I spend my time?
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Offline VeryApe121

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Re: Discussion about poor moderation and leaderboard management
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2021, 11:42:50 am »
Do not criticize, question, suggest or opine anything about DKF moderation, no matter how constructive or positive your intent may be. You will find nothing but pain and frustration, trust me. Just post, or don't post, and :-X either way!
For someone who doesn't even fucking play the game, you sure do seem to have a lot of stakes in this.

Some people just like drama (TheKD).  If they aren't involved in drama, they have this gaping hole in their life.  This person will move on to another drama at some point to fill that hole or manufacture some fake drama to try and suck people in.   Daddy issues most likely.   <Billy>
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Offline datagod

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Re: Discussion about poor moderation and leaderboard management
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2021, 12:20:51 pm »
Did somebody mention drama?

I love drama.  I admit it.  I love drama TV, radio, podcasts.  I love learning about what people debate about.
If humans didn't enjoy drama we would not have movies.

The only gaping hole in my life is the one that Joel West left when he passed away.  Him and I used to stir up the craziest amount of drama.  Fun times!!  RIP Joel.   BibleThump
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Offline datagod

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Re: Discussion about poor moderation and leaderboard management
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2021, 12:24:53 pm »
For someone who doesn't even fucking play the game, you sure do seem to have a lot of stakes in this.

Following your logic, I just yelled at my mom for watching old Tyson matches.  I mean hell, she doesn't even BOX!!!  How dare she enjoy watching.
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Offline Flobeamer1922

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Re: Discussion about poor moderation and leaderboard management
« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2021, 12:28:11 pm »
For someone who doesn't even fucking play the game, you sure do seem to have a lot of stakes in this.

Following your logic, I just yelled at my mom for watching old Tyson matches.  I mean hell, she doesn't even BOX!!!  How dare she enjoy watching.
I fail to see how the two situations are comparable, but whatever, dude.
PBs:
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Donkey Kong Junior - 79,400 (4-2)
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