Poll

Should arcade scores be allowed on the HSL that use the pace kit by Sock Master

Yes
25 (58.1%)
No
18 (41.9%)

Total Members Voted: 42

Author Topic: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit  (Read 4234 times)

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Offline xelnia

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Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
« on: March 05, 2021, 07:01:14 pm »
The question has come up recently (and in the past) as to whether arcade scores should be accepted where the player is using the Pace feature in Sock Master's Remix kit. This is too important an issue for me to decide on my own, so I want there to be some community discussion and a vote. There's no time limit on the vote; I'm going to let things play out until we hopefully get a clear consensus. Let's get a bunch of input from everyone. Here are some issues that might be of concern (but not an exhaustive list):

1) Is it ok for a "non-standard" version of the game to be accepted?
2) Is it ok to use in-game, automated help?
3) Is this different from using the Pauline pace app, or other similar pace apps, or other out-of-game methods people use to track score/pace while playing?
4) If these scores are accepted, should they have a different label on the HSL?
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 07:05:52 pm by xelnia »
"Do not criticize, question, suggest or opine anything about an upcoming CAG event, no matter how constructive or positive your intent may be. You will find nothing but pain and frustration, trust me. Just go, or don't go, and :-X either way!" -ChrisP, 3/29/15
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Offline tilt

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Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2021, 07:41:25 pm »
Here are my thoughts:
1.) When you use any kind of pace kit besides John's, you're not using the original roms. John's kit is the only one that still uses the roms, but cleverly injects the data for the high-score table when it is called. Every other kit just had a hacked rom hiding on the highscore save kit. These kits are allowed, so modified roms are clearly not the issue here. The issue is whether or not the GAMEPLAY changes.
2.) The pace variant on John's kit does not modify the game play. I'm sure he would be happy to verify this for anybody who is curious or unsure, but this is a fact. A bit of text for "highscore" is changed to pace, with the calculated pace under it, and then the "how high can you get" screen has pace information. This does not change the game play at all, and it is simply doing a math calculation internally and showing it on the screen.

All of that being said, the Pauline hack is simply a graphical variant on DK and does not change gameplay either. So my frame of logic is not very sound as graphical hacks should be accepted under that guideline. All of that being said, I am voting yes but I feel the line does need to be drawn at hacks that:
a.) Do not modify the gameplay itself in any way, and
b.) Do not modify the graphics in the core gameplay (elements that the player controls) in any way.

I'm curious to hear other's thoughts on this.
My stream is currently (http://www.twitch.tv/expandedidea/)
PB(s):
Donkey Kong: 1,116,400 (KS)
Donkey kong Hard roms(prev. world record): 914,200
Crazy Kong: 513,700 (KS)
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Offline ww

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Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2021, 11:08:37 pm »
I'm divided on this.

I'm down on it, to the extent that it gives us more info that original rom players don't have.  For example, if we were allowed to use the trainer rom, we'd have all sorts of advantages, and things like time remaining for hammers would feel cheaty to me.  So at what point is the line drawn.

I'd probably like it a bit because I would enjoy seeing it while playing, and I'm sure it would be fun while watching others' deep-run games, perhaps even shorter ones.

I'm leaning to no.  Can we change our vote later, so we can vote casually, or is it permanent?  Thanks!
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Offline xelnia

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Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2021, 11:13:31 pm »
Can we change our vote later, so we can vote casually, or is it permanent?  Thanks!

Yes, you can change your vote.
"Do not criticize, question, suggest or opine anything about an upcoming CAG event, no matter how constructive or positive your intent may be. You will find nothing but pain and frustration, trust me. Just go, or don't go, and :-X either way!" -ChrisP, 3/29/15
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Offline ww

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Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2021, 12:49:26 am »
Also at issue, is this something just available for arcade cabinets, or is it there for mame, too?

I'm thinking I wouldn't even use it, as it would preclude me from submitting a performance elsewhere.
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Offline Barra

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Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2021, 12:53:13 am »
Also at issue, is this something just available for arcade cabinets, or is it there for mame, too?

I'm thinking I wouldn't even use it, as it would preclude me from submitting a performance elsewhere.

There's an app called "Pauline" that Jeff Wilms(?) made. You may not have seen it, its rarely used these days but its still out there
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Offline Flobeamer1922

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Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2021, 12:59:03 am »
Also at issue, is this something just available for arcade cabinets, or is it there for mame, too?

I'm thinking I wouldn't even use it, as it would preclude me from submitting a performance elsewhere.
The Pace hack is available for use in MAME as well as arcade.
PBs:
Donkey Kong - 1,032,100 (22-1)
Donkey Kong Junior - 79,400 (4-2)
Donkey Kong 3 - 344,200 (Stage 22)
Crazy Kong Part II - 645,400 (22-4)

I occasionally stream here: https://www.twitch.tv/flobeamer1922
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Offline GILLYKONG

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Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2021, 02:30:24 am »
Yes let's stop being silly.
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Offline DonkeyShlong

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Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2021, 02:49:29 am »
It's a yes from me. In a world of Twitch live streaming from regular players, it would add excitement for players new and old. As said above and proved, it has zero input to the games coding, it just simply displays a predicted score. The trainer version is clearly not viable and gives advantage to play, pace does not.

Perhaps just add a symbol like DDK..? Me personally though, anyone who can push a high score on MAME or arcade deserves recognition. Some of the top players I've spoken  with say that MAME offers an advantage of a comfy seat, and keyboard dual directional input, but is still part of the HSL.
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Offline Barra

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Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2021, 03:10:30 am »
I don't know much (anything) about the technical side of things here but I've voted yes for 2 main reasons:

1. It doesn't assist with playing the game in any way. It is purely there for reference purposes only
2. Something similar has existed for MAME for close to 10 years and there has never been any problem with it
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Offline Sock Master

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Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2021, 04:16:27 am »
It's a complex issue.  I think that since this doesn't actually give you any advantage besides display what your pace is - and that sort of information is the same as was already available for MAME players using external software, I don't see why it shouldn't be allowable.

I do think that it should be labeled that a score was achieved using the pace version of DK.  I took great efforts to make sure that gameplay did not change but there is some very small, non-zero possibility that I made a mistake somewhere.  I'm confident that there isn't, but I still have to say this because I'm still just human and humans aren't infallible.  Anyway, this has been available for some time now and no glitch has popped up so far so that's reassuring.  I think in the long run, statistics will prove that it is the same!
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Offline f_symbols

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Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2021, 05:46:09 am »
<Allen> <Allen> <Allen> <Allen> <Allen>
Hi Whts his pace
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Offline Lyriell

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Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2021, 05:46:33 am »
Huge, Ethan, huge.
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Offline Scoundrl

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Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2021, 07:16:06 am »
My thoughts are the same as when it was discussed back in 2016

"For the HSL I would be fine accepting scores from a cab with a pace hack as long as its noted with the submission and on the list itself. If this was TG I would have a different view but for this DK specific list managed by the DK players I see no harm at all.

Even if it TG I would say that as long as game play is not changed in any way (including the time between board) it should be accepted. I have nothing against fixing old bugs or adding usability features like high score save and extra men show as long as the gameplay is left 100% in tact.

-Ken"
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Offline JasonV91

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Re: Accepting Arcade Scores Using Sock's Pace Kit
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2021, 10:27:27 am »
I see both sides of this, and it's certainly not cut-and-dried for me, but by a small margin, I'm voting no. What tips it for me is the additional assistance (no matter how minor) provided in-game. The point has been brought up below as to where do you draw the line on how much help is too much, which I think is a good one. You can't (always) control what assistance people will have outside of the game itself - a separate timer, program running in the background or on another machine, someone sitting next to them throughout the game keeping track of things, etc. - but you can ensure that at least the ROM itself provides a level playing field to start. A very similar situation I thought about when considering how to vote - as someone who's played a nearly three-hour game of Space Invaders, having the game do something as simple as track the number of shots you've fired (i.e. pace) would be a big advantage, despite having no bearing on the gameplay itself.

This is not a hill I would die on, but them's my thoughts.
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