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Should we allow score submissions from Johns pace rom?

Yes
No

Author Topic: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?  (Read 23075 times)

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Offline marky_d

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2016, 07:37:08 pm »
no
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2016, 08:14:22 pm »
Also, just so I'm not misunderstood, I <3 DK Pace, and I sympathize with those who'd like to see it allowed (and I agree that it's really good for spectators), I just think introducing it as an acceptable alternative for competition comes with some issues.

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4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Offline f_symbols

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2016, 08:19:30 pm »
Just to be clear; it's OK to play with a keyboard, a ps3 controller, any size or type of screen, any cpu, at any height from the ground, with pauline running, but it's not OK to play with an original control panel, original monitor, original joystick, default image/cp height and angle, an original cabinet and a "modified" rom that is only modified in the sense that it's pulling data from the z80 and displaying it on screen?  The actual game code is not changed...  <stirpot>

It seems fairly condescending from my position; we're accepting (and aggregating) scores from two platforms that have literally nothing in common but the rom itself, but now we're voting to disallow a variant of the arcade platform that in no way affects the actual "rom" but does allow the arcade players to have the same luxuries as pauline users (or something comparable, without the need for UI)?
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Offline f_symbols

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2016, 08:22:39 pm »
So, had John made a plug in device that just attached to the cabinet, read the z80 and did all the work on a tablet display, it would be ok, but this isn't?  I'm just trying to show the irony of the argument when we're already accepting the mame equivalent (pauline), how much more lopsided should we make it?
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Offline danman123456

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2016, 04:20:43 am »
So, had John made a plug in device that just attached to the cabinet, read the z80 and did all the work on a tablet display, it would be ok, but this isn't?  I'm just trying to show the irony of the argument when we're already accepting the mame equivalent (pauline), how much more lopsided should we make it?

Yes if nothing within the code changed other than this displaying of pace what is the issue all? It's ok to use Wes's program with arcade or Pauline with mame but not this? Failing to understand the logic given there is already an established standard that says it is acceptable. Ethan's points are 100% spot on.
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Offline tilt

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2016, 05:47:19 am »
Going off of the points above, the arguements that this is somehow an unfair advantage seem a bit weak.  When dean set his first 1m in circa 2008, he didn't have access to DK Pace 3, pauline, the donkey kong forum, grouping strategies, and so on.  Was his score possibly more impressive/difficult to achieve at the time due to what was available?  Certainly.  Do we disqualify every score done afterwards?  Another poll may needed in order to see how that turns out Kappa.

Anyways, I fail to see how this is any different from that situation.  The pauline program and John's rom:
1.) Latch on to the CPU to run program code.
2.) Reads the score through program code (OCR vs assembly)
3.) Calculate pace using start+levels+deaths
4.) Spits out numbers after levels.
Important one:
5.) Do all of this without changing the skill required to control and play the game.

Unless I am missing something, what exactly is different?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 07:12:10 am by tilt »
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Offline xelnia

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2016, 09:43:45 am »
I never would have voted for pauline to be accepted and didn't even know that it was. But it doesnt suprise me. All the versions should just have seperate tracks and then people can look at a combined list if they like.

Pauline the romhack is not accepted on the Main HSL. There are no rules governing Pauline the pace program.
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Offline mrvaya

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2016, 12:12:22 pm »
There are a lot of strong arguments for and against accepting scores from the pace rom. That is great because it shows that we all care so much about this treasured old game!!  :)

It is adduced that such a pace calculation gives an advantage over those who do not use such one. However, quite a few of those claiming this have themselves used or still uses pace calculations while playing, whether done semi-automatic (entering numbers in excel or a program) or automatic (Pauline pace program or getting info from Twitch viewers or live audience). It is out there - it is already being used extensively on all platforms!

Where we all seems to agree is that ANY submission must be done with GENUINE and ORIGINAL gameplay. Before any further discussion takes place about approving/not approving scores from the pace rom, I feel we should conclude whether or not it is possible to verify those scores as surely as it is currently being done with the original rom. Maybe Jeremy could shed some light on this?
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Offline d3scride

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2016, 03:02:46 pm »
I would say no. Is it possible to see what parts of the code were changed?
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1-2: 22,700
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Offline ChrisP

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2016, 03:07:31 pm »
Ya know, reading this thread makes me realize that it's impossible to be 100% internally-consistent about this stuff, unless you're willing to make things either impractically strict, or overly-relaxed, across the board.

Ethan's got a really good point about how, with MAME, basically anything goes in terms of the ergonomics and computing environment so long as the INP checks out. That's really worth examining. Yet we mix all the scores together without a problem because "MAME and arcade are the same", with proponents of that position simultaneously demanding tightness of standards when it comes to ROM hacks that don't even change the gameplay.

Meanwhile others are arguing in favor of a hack that does math for you, which somehow "isn't an advantage", mere weeks after chortling at the idea of playing by standard rules on non-standard lives setting (<stirpot>) out of a fear that those additional Jumpmen up in the corner would act as some magical performance-enhancing drug (yet having the game hand you a bunch of extremely useful stats would not??)

fk dis, can I unvote?  ;D
http://donkeykongblog.blogspot.com

4 Quarters :-* - 800K Avg. Per Qtr. :o - No Restarts 8) - No Proof :'(

7/26/2013   Coin 35,946   710,800   18-1
7/28/2013   Coin 35,947   903,700   22-1
8/16/2013   Coin 35,948   694,100   17-6
8/17/2013   Coin 35,949   893,100   22-1

3,201,700: the $1 World Record?
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Offline Scoundrl

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2016, 03:58:09 pm »
For the HSL I would be fine accepting scores from a cab with a pace hack as long as its noted with the submission and on the list itself. If this was TG I would have a different view but for this DK specific list managed by the DK players I see no harm at all.

Even if it TG I would say that as long as game play is not changed in any way (including the time between board) it should be accepted. I have nothing against fixing old bugs or adding usability features like high score save and extra men show as long as the gameplay is left 100% in tact.

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Offline danman123456

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2016, 05:03:49 pm »
For the HSL I would be fine accepting scores from a cab with a pace hack as long as its noted with the submission and on the list itself. If this was TG I would have a different view but for this DK specific list managed by the DK players I see no harm at all.

Even if it TG I would say that as long as game play is not changed in any way (including the time between board) it should be accepted. I have nothing against fixing old bugs or adding usability features like high score save and extra men show as long as the gameplay is left 100% in tact.

-Ken

Yeah I don't think its different than the Robotron "hack" that shows the 10 million and also the lives left plus fixed the reset bug.  If the game is the same aside from basially some cosmetic changes that don't change the gameplay at all why not? It improves the original just like the Robotron change did. I do think this is 100% different than the 6+1 discussion. Knowing your pace is not a hard thing to do and I pretty much know exactly where i am anymore so it really doesn"t "help" me. Heck hank and everyone was putting a "pace chart" on the cab so how is that different? Computing pace can be done a bunch of ways that are considered "ok" and this 100% should be allowed IMO.
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DK KS Speedrun : 1 Hr 16 Min 40 Sec - World Record!
DK Lvl 1 - 1: 12,400
Fix-It Felix Jr - 297,000 (World Record)
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Offline LMDAVE

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2016, 06:27:17 pm »
I don't think the fact that it shows pace is the unfair advantage, even though some may see it that way. The problem I have is simple, its a modified ROM. To the average person, how do they know something else wasn't changed by even a slight percentage of what is noticed. There's no simple way other than those who can read and identify the whole code to verify it. To me I'd like to keep the main high score list with as close as possible as the TG list was maintained.
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Donkey Kong 1-1: 12,900

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Offline marinomitch13

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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2016, 11:07:57 pm »
I voted "no" mainly because I'd like to have the parts of the code that were changed examined by a 2nd (and, perhaps, a 3rd) party first and confirmed to have no meaningful effect on the gameplay (I note meaningfulness because I'd assume that D2K boards technically require electrons to travel a few more mm, but create no meaningful change in the game, imho). As Ken noted, it's also important that the time in-between boards is the same as well.
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Re: Accept submissions from Johns pace rom?
« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2016, 09:53:13 pm »
Many intriguing questions. Many good points. It seems in this discussion that whether any modified rom should be allowed is the major issue. To date it has not been allowed. Do we say no simply on principle that anything modified, whether cosmetic or not, is not "US Set 1" as it was originally released and therefore should not be used? There is a strong argument for this position. When I wrote "the ROMs must be US Set 1" it was written indicating the original code with no alterations in game play. That way the list was intended to only track a single code that is identical in all respects from the first line to the very last. That is its original intent. While we did not have such a rom with minor cosmetic changes such as this at that time means that it is not explicitly excluded, but yet its rejection is implied in the intent of the rule.

It was certainly intended to exclude US Set 2 which is different in the game code itself and hence its exclusion because the game play is altered. So far the annotations included on the HSL only denote hardware and source of video or inp files. The HSL has not included any altered rom files. While there is certainly a difference between US Set 1 and US Set 2, from US Set 1 to modified US Set 1, since one changes the game code and the other is a cosmetic difference, should we ever allow any modified rom at all? Obviously Pauline is yet another case but here the graphical interface between player and game is not absolutely the same as Jumpman and is part of the game play although the functionality of the game is unaltered.

I think that the scale can be tipped in favor of its acceptance with annotation on HSL that said modified rom was used if we could have absolute certainty that game play is not influenced at all. While the way the game normally functions may not be changed, does the modified rom influence RNG, the timing between boards, etc, so that the outcome is different than it otherwise would have been, although within the limits and terms of the processing code. Willms once noticed that if you finished the barrel board timed with the flashing 1Up that it would eliminate the delay in the 5th fireball. At least this is how I remembered it, and assuming that this idea is still valid, would this still work on the modified rom? Is the cutscreen still the same set of frames and no lag or extra stress placed upon the Z80 would have influence outcome in anyway?

There are very few people who understand Assembly and can verify with absolute certainty that there never will be found some anomalous, unintended result. No one knew that NES Jaws begins to function differently at 10 million points until one actually achieved that score. While I don't think there is anyone who questions the competency and integrity of the one who modified the rom, unless the community agrees very strongly (perhaps unanimously?) with one perspective or another it should not be allowed for the time being but the discussion should continue.

While the HSL has functioned with normative and auxiliary rules, it has become clear that in certain ways the sense of the normative rules, or at least some of them, has taken on a more absolute character in how they are generally applied such as the 3+1 setting. (Thanks for Jeremy for this insight) And perhaps the same can be said of a strict interpretation of "the ROMs must be US Set 1" to mean nothing short of a single code that is identical in all respects from the first line to the very last.