Author Topic: Help on Elevators 3+  (Read 12545 times)

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Offline domchimp

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Help on Elevators 3+
« on: August 27, 2013, 01:34:46 pm »
My personal high right now is 169,700.  Most of my deaths are occurring on the elevators, at the top.  I know I need to move when the spring "lines-up" with the top of the first elevator, but I die when 2 of them come in a row.  I find that if I look to see where the next one lands, I hesitate too much, or don't retreat in time.  Any tips on how to develop this skill? Where should I be focusing?
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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Help on Elevators 3+
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2013, 01:52:11 pm »
Sounds like you pretty much understand what to do...just keep practicing. 

Different people focus on different spots of the screen.  For me I kinda zone in on the right side of the safe spot left of the final ladder to make sure I get a good jump...i know how long it takes to run to the ladder so I don't look at Jumpman during the run up...and then I peek over at where the next spring is going to bounce...then react accordingly.

You'll get the hang of it after doing it a bunch of times...just keep at it and it'll become the easiest part of the game.

Good luck!
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Drunkguy89

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Re: Help on Elevators 3+
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2013, 02:03:39 pm »
The elevators can be very tedious, especialy if you are fresh to the game,

as the above post mentioned its all about practice, In time it will become easier due to muscle memory, (while watching the springs you will just know how to make that run for the ladder without directaly looking at Mario/Jump man) A good excersise is to use save states (Provided you are using MAME) on the lvl 4/5 elevators and keep doing it until you can pass them 20 times or more in a row

That was a suggestion thought to me by Rick Fothergill and now the spring stages are much easier, Its all about practice ;)

Offline Shane_NC

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Re: Help on Elevators 3+
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2013, 04:24:44 pm »
Ok I don't use the standard spring strategy, but I will do my best to tell you how its done and where you should be looking at which part.

Ok, first of all you need to identify the different lengths of the springs. A short spring generally lands slightly to the left of DK's left foot or basically flush with the left side of DK's left foot (as it appears on the screen)

A long spring is a spring that bounces flush with the first yellow elevator box.

Once you are in the safe spot above the 2nd yellow elevator box you need to be waiting for a long spring. When a spring makes its first contact with the ground and you can then identify it is a long spring you need to wait until the spring is bouncing directly over marios head. You can actually go slightly before the bottom of the spring becomes parallel with mario's head. At this point you need to start right for the ladder, while watching the next spring, dont look at mario look at or around DK's feet to determine what the next spring will be.

If you have done this correctly, by the time you reach the ladder (and are able to grab it) the next spring will have already identified itself. If this spring is short you need to continue up the ladder. As soon as you have seen that it is short, quickly move your eyes back to mario and make sure he has made the ladder. If mario doesnt quiet make the ladder, (this is very common even with great players) usually you will be just to the left of the ladder and holding up, but since you arent all the way to the ladder you wont climb. If this happens you need to retreat back to the safe spot. Because the time you waste holding up while not climbing is time off your reaction time.

If the next spring comes LONG, you need to retreat. Just practice over and over with save states and you will get it.

So in short: once at the safe spot you need to wait for a long spring to bounce over marios head, it is best to start right just slightly before the spring is parallel to marios head. If the next spring is short keep going and up the ladder. If the next spring is long you need to run back to the safe.

YOUR EYES: once mario is in the safe, you need to be watching the springs not mario. When a long spring comes, quickly look at mario and wait for the spring to bounce over his head, you must do this as the spring is directly over his head of slightly before. As soon as it is straight over marios head run right and QUICKLY move your eyes back to the springs, by the time you see the next spring you will be either at the ladder or almost to the ladder. If then next spring is short quickly look back at mario to make sure he is going up the ladder without stopping short. If the next spring is long look at mario and guide him back to the safe spot and wait again.

Save state practive will help you with timing etc

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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Help on Elevators 3+
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2013, 06:11:09 am »
This has helped others in the past so just wanted to point this out.

You don't have to wait for a long spring. Basically anything other than short and medium/short springs...you can go on.  The more important thing is that the next spring is not long.

Using some of the pixel analysis Ethan, Dean, and others have been working on...there is probably a mathematical formula you could create for executing the 3rd Elevator springs successfully every time...but this would be rather pointless and impossible to execute in a real game without some sort of on-the-fly screen capture program that could flash a numerical value of each spring onto the screen...etc etc...easier to just practice and do it manually.

Point is...medium springs are also ok to go on.  The most important part of all this is making sure the next spring is not too long.

There's also the 'sweet spot' spring (spring that comes out at just the right length to where it bounces directly in line with the final ladder you must climb...giving Jumpman the max amount of space/time to climb up safely)...which is somewhere in the medium/short range.  You can get a bad jump, or go on medium/short springs and still make it up the ladder if a sweet spot spring comes next.

And don't forget the super short spring.  This one is so short that if you get a bad jump, it can actually hit you on the right side as you are climbing up, during the first half (positive slope of the parabola) of a spring's bounce.
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Offline xelnia

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Re: Help on Elevators 3+
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2013, 06:54:08 am »
Using some of the pixel analysis Ethan, Dean, and others have been working on...there is probably a mathematical formula you could create for executing the 3rd Elevator springs successfully every time...but this would be rather pointless and impossible to execute in a real game without some sort of on-the-fly screen capture program that could flash a numerical value of each spring onto the screen...etc etc...easier to just practice and do it manually.

You can technically survive any spring combination on Level 3 if everything is set up perfectly, even the short-long combos. The problem is that for the shortest two springs (Type 0 and Type 1, using Dean's numbering system) you're basically playing the odds of whether Jumpman's sprite is in the right "position." This is something I'm going to lay out in more detail in a future post, but basically Jumpman's sprite can be in one of three states while running, and for a [0,15] combination there is only one value of the three that will ensure survival...assuming you also start running at the exact right time.

This carries over into Level 4 as well. I'm in the process of making some sweet charts showing frame-by-frame breakdowns of the spring combinations. My rough and unfinished analysis shows that of 256 possible two-spring combinations (16x16), you might be able to actually pass as many as 186.
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Offline stella_blue

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Re: Help on Elevators 3+
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2013, 07:27:43 am »
This carries over into Level 4 as well. I'm in the process of making some sweet charts showing frame-by-frame breakdowns of the spring combinations. My rough and unfinished analysis shows that of 256 possible two-spring combinations (16x16), you might be able to actually pass as many as 186.

That's an interesting project, Jeremy.  I look forward to seeing the results of your analysis.

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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Help on Elevators 3+
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2013, 09:56:31 am »
Yea me too.  I knew you guys were working on that stuff and it'll be interesting to see what the results are!  Cool.
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Offline Shane_NC

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Re: Help on Elevators 3+
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2013, 02:30:00 pm »
There is actually a reason that I go first only on long springs.

Since a long spring widens the safe spot the most... almost all the way to the ladder, but slightly out of grab range, it is a lot more forgiving than a mid spring.

A few examples:

Let's say you break down your strategy and decide to go on mid springs. If your reaction is a bit early it is FAR FAR FAR more likely you will face plant a mid spring than a long spring. Lets say you decide to go on short, short. This is possible ive done it quite a few times in save states for the hell of it. You are even more likely to faceplant a spring if your reaction is just slightly early.

 In addition, a long spring HELPS TREMENDOUSLY when using the alternative "cheat step strategy", a very dumbed down version of the "dean move" on the springs. Since the long spring widens the safe spot the most, it allows your cheat step to be far closer to the ladder than a mid spring, thus giving you less space to have a bad reaction. I have done testing myself, and I have noticed I can get my hands on the ladder before I see the next spring. This is far easier to do when going on long spring than a mid spring.

So yea, I mid spring can work as your initial spring, but its a lot more risky in my opinion and doesnt warrant doing unless

1) you are playing solely for score.. going on a mid/long could save you more timer than waiting for just a long.

2)Through bad combinations of springs and low timer, you must make a move.

I swear by going on a long spring, it is much easier and forgiving than going on a mid.
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Offline mikegmi2

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Re: Help on Elevators 3+
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2013, 06:11:24 am »
Yea totally the safest/easiest way is to go on long springs only.  Newer players should probably stick with this...as the few hundred points you might lose per spring screen is inconsequential if you're going for your first kill screen, for example.

Still it's important to know that waiting for the long springs is not the only way to do the elevator screen.  It's really not much harder at all to go on a medium spring, and I remember when I figured this out I wished I knew it when I was a newer player.  I would sit there and wait 10 springs for a long one sometimes, and then the waiting would make me anxious...and I would get a bad jump or something and die because I was waiting specifically for a long spring.

Good luck domchimp!
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Offline JNugent

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Re: Help on Elevators 3+
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2013, 09:47:45 am »
So to the OP (domchimp), have you employed any of the techniques and/or advice given, and have you seen any improvement as a result?  Myself, I highly recommend watching others, and creating/using a save state.  Like Adam said above, practice until you can make it every time!

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Offline domchimp

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Re: Help on Elevators 3+
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2013, 11:58:13 am »
Thank you all for your input.  I think the 2 things I take away are: (1) must practice!; and (2) focus on the second spring, and not Mario (learn to move Mario without watching him).
I have not yet had a chance to practice again.  I play on an arcade cabinet, usually at the Funspot :).  Been up there a lot lately as I am about to close on a summer house nearby:)
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Offline _Zaphod_

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Re: Help on Elevators 3+
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2013, 11:45:36 pm »
The only way i can think of to possibly climb the latter and dodge a 14-15 long spring is to backwards jump the preceding spring, and i'm not sure that's even possible.

Even with long long and a perfect start, you end up short, because the long spring hits so high up the ladder.  i'm pretty sure that was roven in the ladder theory thread.